Transcript
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The business world today is, like I
said, is a lot different than it was
those days. In many ways, it's a lot
easier. In many ways, it's a lot harder.
Competition today is is is probably a
little bit stiffer, more difficult in a
sense, not from the competition itself
itself, but from the regulations source.
>> Today to get a license in a healthcare
facility is 3 and 12 to 4 years.
>> My days, I got it in 3 months. There's a
big difference. Bureaucracy today is
just horrible. But you got to live with
it. There's nothing else you can do with
it.
>> Welcome to the Middle Class Podcast. I
know we've been a little bit out of
commission for a while. This is uh this
a couple months since our last filming.
Um but it's really a privilege and a
pleasure to have Mr. Alex Adelman,
uh, former former mayor of Lawrence, um,
which we'll probably want to hear about
amongst many other things. Um, pleasure
and privilege to have you as a guest on
the podcast. And the theme of the
podcast today is about how to build a
business correctly, building a business.
And that's something that Alex can
definitely shed light on for us and
teach us and help us um, with. And I
really, really am looking forward to
this podcast. and I think all our
listeners are going to benefit from it
tremendously and I can't wait to get
right into it. So, Alex, um why don't we
start with just the basic background of
uh you know where you're coming from. I
know you weren't born in in America.
You've come you've a very amazing story.
So, let's start with that introducing
that.
>> Yeah, thank thank you for having me
first of all. Um I I was born in
Romania. came to America when I was 13
years old and that was basically it. Uh
we grew up in Baltimore for a while,
went to yeshiva there, went to school
there until I was about 17, 18. Then I
went out of town on yeshiva. I ended up
in Lakewood on my later years and I got
married and I moved to Borough Park.
That's the short version of my life,
>> so to speak.
>> So So wow. So Romania, that's a country
in Europe.
>> That's a country in Europe. Yeah. It's
like
>> sorry for anyone who doesn't know it's
not Rome, it's Romania.
>> It's Romania. That's correct. You know,
our generations.
>> So, um, wow. So, what how old were you
when you came again from Romania?
>> Well, we left Romania when I was 9 years
old, but we were living in Paris for
about a year and a half and, uh, we
lived in Amsterdam for almost two years.
So, by the time we got here, I was 13
years old.
>> So, and when you were in America, you
grew up in Baltimore.
>> I grew up in Baltimore basically for a
couple of years till I was about 15, 16,
17. Then I want yeshiva out of town.
>> Which one? That was yeshiva in
Connecticut at that time of mafi.
>> Oh.
>> And then after that I went to uh
Lakewood. While I was in in Mafi yes in
Connecticut I went to college there for
a while. Kunapia college which was the
original way it opened up. It was a
business school of Yale. Yale University
opened up the school at that time and I
went there for about two and a half
years. I got some education as far as uh
you know general knowledge of what's
going on in the business world very
helpful to a certain extent but uh
mostly basically you you get to learn on
your own experience rather than book
stuff.
>> Mhm.
>> Book stuff is fine if you want to you
know go by the book so to speak if you
want to deviate a little bit and and do
something on your own is that book help
that book smart does not help you much
unfortunately.
>> Yeah. So I want to get very much into
that. So um but before just to
understand Lakewood so you went to B med
and you were by Cutler at that point
>> Cutler
>> at that point it was
>> yeah was nifted two years before
>> oh wow so what was Lakewood I'm curious
what was Lakewood like then how many
people were in the yeshiva
>> in Lakewood at that time they had about
350 bakarami
uh they had about a coil of about 150
yalites about 150 175 yungalite and
uh single guys and the rest were married
coer guys. It was a smaller yeshiva
compared to what it is today. Today
78,000 bramite. It's a different world
today.
>> Mhm.
>> But it was sort of a more smaller
yeshiva. It was more individual
we had. It was a very interesting it was
a different type of life than it was
today. Different type of yeshiva
different type of learning those days.
It was more or less you know you you
knew everybody there basically. It's not
today. You know, you can sit in the base
of medish for 5 years, not know the
other half of the base of madrish. It's
a different world today.
>> I mean, one of my stories is that I
didn't even know my karus's name till
like 3 months into this man.
>> Yeah, it's possible.
>> It's the same thing in me. You're shal.
>> Yeah, it's a cholen pot.
>> Yeah.
>> So, this is important for our listeners
because they go through those life
stages where they're learning and then
they go to work. So, again, how old were
you when you were in Lakewood at that
point? I was uh 18, 19, 20 at I got
married when I was 20, a little bit
older than 20. Um and uh and I we moved
to Boro Park.
>> So
>> my wife is originally from Long Beach,
Long Island, and then we moved to Boro
Park. We lived in Boro Park and I
started looking for a business. I
started looking for a job immediately
right after the and uh I've done a few
things in my life before I was able to
go into my own business. Uh but uh you
know I done some jewelry salesmanship. I
was working for jewelry company. I used
to go out of town selling jewelry and I
worked for a tuxedo place uh as a
manager for a while and I just tried
different things to see what what and
where what I was suitable for and what I
like to do.
>> Right?
>> Basically a search situation for a
couple years after marriage. You search
for different things, different options,
what's available out there just to get
an idea until you find your own niche.
Basically, that's what it was.
>> Yeah. So, that's important because I
again I want to focus on the building of
the business and a lot of those things
that you went through are part of the
journey, right? To be able to get
something that you want to do and are
successful at.
>> So, right after you got married, um you
started exploring. What was um you said
you were in college for a period of
time. When when did that take place?
>> How old?
>> That took place when I was uh 18 and 19.
17 18 actually.
>> Uhhuh.
>> Okay. I I graduated when I was 17 and
then I went to college went to night
school night school there. Uh and doing
during the day I went to yeshiva and I
did that for about two years. Basically
business the the courses that I've taken
at that time was business and marketing.
That was the name of the course. Uh
there was some basic knowledge that I
acquired from it. No question about it.
But it wasn't much helpful. Maybe if I
stayed there longer, perhaps I could
have picked up more knowledge. But I
found that the knowledge that I had
picked up really was not useful in the
business world per se. Right. So, okay.
So, we're at the stage now. So, you you
were learning for a while um picking up
some business knowledge and now you go
out into the world of business. Um can
you describe the feeling um that you had
when you entered the world and started
exploring? Were you did you feel lost?
Did you feel confident? How did you be
able to
>> Well, it's interesting because uh I was
more or less a person that had a lot of
confidence even when I was a younger
age. So, when I went on to the business
world, it wasn't any any news or any
shocking situations where I, you know, I
I, you know, I sort of shocked myself. I
was confident in what I was doing. I
always knew what I wanted to do.
uh I had a certain amount of of of push
on my own and willingness to want to try
things the things that I enjoy things
that I wanted to do and so that's how I
uh started doing different things in
different businesses. So confidence and
that's key. I think you feel that having
the confidence and the ability to be a
little bit I don't know use the word
aggressive or pushy or what would be the
correct word?
>> All those all those words are good
useful words but I don't know if it it
means anything to it. I think that you
have to have a real confidence in
yourself and if you want to go into
business not everybody is suitable for
business. Okay that's a fact of life.
Some people are more suitable to become
attorneys. Other people are suit to
become lawyers and not everybody's suit
to become a businessman. Uh just like uh
just like a salesman has a certain act
to be a salesman. You can't take a guy
who's shy and bashful to put him out at
me become a salesman. It doesn't work.
It doesn't work.
>> Uh you have to know what you want to do
and you have to know what you appreciate
and you have to know what you like to do
and what you're capable of doing. That's
the most important analysis of yourself.
Whenever you get married, you have to
figure out what you want to do with your
life. In order to do that, you have to
analyze yourself basically. Am I capable
of being a salesman? Am I capable of
going to college, becoming a lawyer, an
accountant? Uh I want to go into
business. I want to open up a garage,
you know, I want to sell uh you know uh
items on for you know that I want to do.
Uh it's it's a different type of a
situation in each and every instance and
not everybody suitable for every
instance. So it'd be good for a person
at that age to sort of analyze themsel
for lack of a better word obviously to
just to see what am I capable of doing?
What do I like to do?
>> If you like something that you want to
do, you'd be much more successful than
if something is pushed on to you to make
you do it.
>> So obviously if you enjoy a certain
particular type of a of of adventure,
maybe you should go into that kind of a
business which that suits your talent,
suits your capabilities and maybe that's
the way to go,
>> right? So there's different actions,
different angles for different people,
>> right? So like, so when you first of
all, I would love to understand what
gave you confidence in life like what
was it something with with your
upbringing or it was natural? What what
would you say?
>> You know, I grew up in Romania
where u where you know, you didn't have
the regular things of same kid growing
up in America. It was a different world
there.
And uh so we learned to be tough. Mhm.
We learned how to deal for ourselves and
how to work for ourselves and how to get
things done that we wanted to have. And
those things, I guess, give you a
certain amount of character. Here in
America, every three-year-old, every
four-year-old, every 5-year-old has
everything handed to them. You know,
when they're 7, 8, 9 years old, you
know, everything's handed to them. When
they're 10, 15 years old, everything's
handed to them.
European attitude is a little bit
different in the sense that people have
to work for certain things. You wanted a
certain thing, you went out and you
worked for it.
>> You wanted a new bike, you went out and
sold newspapers until we got enough
money to go buy a new bike. Uh in
America, that's very rare when that
happens, right?
>> Most of our a neighbors and friends
actually, you know, don't have to go
through all that. Uh daddy buys you
everything, you know. So that's a
problem in a certain way because, you
know, they got used to that comfort
level.
>> Right. Right. So, so that uh that's a
different culture that you end up using
it to help. So, you're saying when you
started in the world of business to me
um there's two ways like you could have
a lot of confidence in yourself and want
to want to succeed but you could also
feel very lost and you're saying you
came in with the mindset of not feeling
very lost very you came in feeling very
confident in working on something that
you wanted to do. Absolutely. I I I uh I
was confident in the sense that I knew
what I wanted to do. I knew I saw
different opportunities that came up. U
you know for instance I had a situation
where I worked in a tuxedo place for
after I finished my jewelry business for
a while for 6 to 8 months and then I
when I came into that company worked as
an assistant manager and the manager's
been there for like 30 years. He had a
certain way of doing things. I went over
to the boss one day and I told him after
a couple of weeks I would prefer if he
could let me do this and this way this
and that way sort of you know quite
differently than the manager and I don't
want to upset him
>> but I think he's doing things you know
sort of as backwards.
>> Um and he talked to me and he looked at
me and he said let's give it a try.
And we ended up uh after doing that the
way I wanted to do it uh ended up
actually saving one and a half
employees. He was very happy at that
time because one and a half employees
cost him a fortune of money.
>> One and a half employees.
>> Yes. Because it was not because what
happened was timewise we saved a certain
amount of time. So we're able to take
that employee that was doing that
particular task put him to someplace
else.
>> So it was some almost like you know uh
60 hours a week of time
>> which was taken away from this
particular task of packaging and put
someplace else.
>> So he liked it. He wanted it. He told me
then after a while that the manager is
looking to retire if I want to stay a
business I want to work there for for
him part-time full-time you know he was
offered to give me a full-time position
there as a manager once the manager
retires uh I was not interested in
working there I was just interested in
just getting some experience in the
world of business and I wanted to move
on
>> tuxedos wasn't your life goal
>> tuxedo was not my idea of being there as
a manager for the rest of my life no
>> gotcha so um I would ask one quick
question because that was a different
world back then. Was there less
competition
when you started in business back then?
Do you see there being less competition
in whatever industry you're going in
back then more than it is today or
>> I I don't think so. I think I think uh
it's probably more difficult to certain
things in business today than it was
those days because of controls and
regulations and rules and all of that
other stuff. Uh-huh.
>> Uh but but as competition is concerned,
there's competition in every business.
Uh you know, after a while, I went into
the situation where where I was offered
a a a small partnership
uh running a facility, the healthcare
facility, uh which I took on because I
was interested in that in a long-term
basis. I felt that the the healthcare
industry is something that was solid
future in business that was made a lot
of sense. Uh I was offered a small
partnership with a with the intent that
I was going to be the manager of a
facility. Uh my father-in-law helped me
out to become a partner over there and
he was an investor and I had two other
partners that were investors in it and I
was basically the workhorse. They were
much older and I was the one that was
running the business and I was the one
that was doing all the work. And uh the
facility that we bought at that time was
a small bed facility, 53 beds, was
basically losing about $2,000 a month.
>> Right. I'm sure you know, Alex, today
the healthcare industry is uh probably
one of the most popular Jewish
businesses.
>> Yes, it is. And so I I know I cut you
off there, but I wanted to just so I
just wanted to iterate it though that
you're saying that if someone, let's
say, has confidence and a passion for a
certain thing, they should pursue that
and the competitive landscape or
whatever it is is what it is. It's not
the kind of thing you you even thought
about.
>> If you have a passion for certain
things, you you'll continue doing it no
matter what. Uh competition is always
competition. Every business, you tell me
a business there's no competition,
that's not a business.
>> So things aren't different. And I always
thought things are different today
because of so much information that's
available and everyone's coming up with
the next invention. So I thought today
competition is like much worse than it
was uh
>> not really. Not really. There's there's
a lot more information available today
than it was years ago. Obviously you
know you got the chat GPT and you got
everything else available today which we
never had in those days. M
>> you wanted to look up something, you had
to go out and do the research yourself.
And and healthcare at that time was
something that was just coming up. And
it was an interesting business for me
because I enjoyed that. I enjoyed people
care and I enjoyed management in
general. I thought I had a good knack
for it and I did. Um we bought this 53
bed facility with three partners and
myself and and after a year and a half I
built it up to made it 120 bed facility.
After two years, two and a half years
>> from 53 to 120,
>> right? From 53 beds to 120 bed facility,
it became more than double the value
obviously,
>> right?
>> And it was started to make money
actually. Okay. Because 53 beds was very
small facility and we worked at it and I
worked at it very hard for a couple
years. It was very profitable. It was
fine. It was okay. And I I had offers
from other partners that wanted to take
me on as partners to go into a different
industry.
I did that. I ended up with two three
facilities in 5 years.
>> Right. And this took place. Let's just
go back to the timeline. This took
place. You had been in the jewelry
business for you said
>> and this was in this was in the early
'7s 71 72 73 in those days,
>> right? And this was how how how old were
you at that point?
>> At that time then I was 22 23 24. So in
the healthcare, so you've been in
business for about two, three years
before you moved into the healthcare
space.
>> About two years. About two years. About
the third year, I was already in the
healthcare business.
>> Right. Cuz I'm bringing that out because
I know with uh you know, my generation,
you know, I think being successful
requires a lot of patience. Right. I
think Right. You're not an overnight su
success, right? It took you tried one
thing.
>> Exactly. And I remember you telling me
this maybe we can share that also about
the jewelry business how you worked very
hard on
ple making sure your customers were
happy right is that
>> yeah that was that was a major thing
because I used to I jewelry business was
competitive at those days okay that was
competitive right
>> it wasn't competitive because everybody
used to sell jewelry to everybody
jewelry was a big item worked on 47
street for for a cup company have two
part two brothers and they needed a
salesman I took took over the line from
an elderly person that was a salesman
prior to me being a salesman there and
he had a tremendous reputation in
certain type of jewelry opals which was
very popular those days and I picked up
the line and I started to go out and
sell follow up the customers that he had
in the interim I looked at other
customers as well so I did pretty well I
I those days I used to make between $300
to $500 a week which was a lot of money
in 197071 won. It was a lot of money
those days. My rent was $75 a month.
>> Uhhuh.
>> Okay.
>> And you were married at this point.
>> I was married at this point. I had uh
you know child on the way.
>> Wow.
>> And uh my my my my alternate side of the
street parking in Burough Park cost me
$200 a month because I never was there
in time to move the car to the other
side of the street.
>> That was
>> so that cost me more money than my rent
those days.
>> But it's a that's that's the fact. The
the reality of it is that you know after
a while you work at different things
different uh types of businesses you get
to see what type of business has the
least amount of competition what you
prefer to do what you like to do right
>> and that's how I ended up in the
healthcare business I liked that
business it was a good business and
something that future did
>> so when you were in the jewelry business
and you were selling jewelry did you
consider would you say that you were
working very hard like
>> I was working very hard because I wanted
to make money I wanted to get money I
wanted to save money. I had no money
>> and obviously I wanted to save money and
I wanted to be able to to to invest
obviously in something that I wanted to
purchase eventually
>> and uh obviously those days you know you
you you made very little money
>> wasn't much to save on it
>> right
>> I was fortunate because I did very well
in the jewelry business
>> how did you do well and and when you
were in the times that things were very
very hard what did you say to yourself
to keep pushing
>> to have a lot customers that were out of
town and the out of town was less
competitive than Manhattan or Brooklyn
or Queens. I used to go out of town
three, four times a week. Used to go to
Rochester one day to K Jewelers.
>> You took the train.
>> I took the plane. Uh I had a clergy
discount at that time. 50% clergy
discount.
>> Clergy.
>> Yeah. Because at those days, Eastern
Airline going back now. I don't know how
many people remember this.
>> Eastern Airlines had a deal. If you were
clergy, you got 50% discount. And you
were a clergy.
>> I was a clergy because I was in
Linquist. So I had a clergy card
>> and I got a 50% discount. So I used to
go to Rochester for a day to take to
look at some major customer. They had
big retail outlets over there. I went to
Buffalo one day. Uh I went to
Philadelphia one day. Used to do that
three, four times a month. And I used to
come back with uh with 7 8 $10,000 worth
of orders. That was 10% for me. That was
my commission. 10% commission on
>> 10% commission there's no salary. So
when when things were very difficult in
the business that you were in, what kept
you going or it was just something you
said I have to do this. So
>> well I did this like I said I did this
for almost a year and a half, two years.
And um I did it. Some weeks were good,
some weeks were not, some weeks we made
more money, other weeks we made less
money. But the fact of the matter was
you you plugged on and you moved on and
you did it. In the interim I was looking
at other businesses, looking at other
things that I was interested doing. I
got tired of traveling basically,
>> right?
>> And and local business was not as
lucrative as going out of town. So, uh
when then I went after that, I told my
uh my my boss that I was not interested
being a salesman anymore. He offered me
a partnership
>> to be a salesman and to be a partner.
>> I was not interested in jewelry
business. I found the jewelry business
to be very competitive in a sense that
there was a lot of people making the
same ring. You know, you had to just
have a niche to make it at, you know,
better than everybody else. Was not in
something that I was interested in
doing. I was interested in doing it
because I had nothing else to do at that
time.
>> Right.
>> Then I went to the tuxedo business for a
while. Like I said, as a manager that
wasn't there I wasn't there for a long
time either because I really was not
interested. Then I went to the
healthcare business and I stuck with
that pretty much for a long time. So
what did you see in the healthcare
business that said you know what this is
something I want to I want to do?
>> I like the healthcare business because
it's something that was needed as people
were getting older. There was more and
more need for for for for healthcare
facilities. Uh there was different types
of of facilities that was available
those days. There was a nursing home,
there was adult care, there was a a
psychiatric facilities, there was many
many different aspects of the
facilities. It involved management which
I had a very comfortable feeling of
doing it, managing people.
>> It involved uh uh uh uh a lot of uh
construction which I was very good at. I
was very handy, very capable of doing
that. And overall the building itself
was something that had to be managed
well. And so overall I felt comfortable
in all those areas and that's how I
really got into it and that's how I
really went into it and uh I did very
well with it. So the model at that point
in time in healthcare was similar to
today. Basically the more beds you have
the more money comes
>> obviously. Yeah. More facilities you
have the more income you have the more
money you make. Obviously that's the
same thing.
>> But at that time the industry was very
shaky. The rates were very low. I got
involved with a state association which
was very inoperative. there was a bunch
of people that were having little
associations
uh in in in different parts of Long
Island and New York and Brooklyn had an
association. So, it was really not much
of an association. I decided with two
other fellows and that we said we're
going to open up an association to get
most of our our adult care facilities
into that association. And we worked
very hard for about a year until we got
a group of people to agree to pay dues
and to work an association. And then we
devel we had one guy that became
president of the association and we we
we we got a lot of other clients from
different parts of uh New York, Long
Island and joined our association.
>> So what do I'm sorry to cut. So what's
the association? What does that mean?
>> Basically association did what? They had
a collective amount of facilities that
went and negotiated with the state for
rates, better rules and regulations.
Certain rules and regulation that we
want to implement. Uh rates was a major
factor. The Medicaid rates was very low.
they got a higher rate. Uh they
implemented certain rules and
regulation. Some of we agreed with some
of it we fought. Uh we that we
introduced other regulations which we
thought was very helpful to the
industry. So that was the purpose of the
association and association went on for
a while. It became grew and grew. We got
at one point almost 90 facilities that
were member of the association.
Eventually I became the president of the
association and we ran the association
for about six seven years was very
successful and then I gave it up
somebody else became president and I
moved on.
>> Yeah. So so this the association
structure and again that that means I
think at that time also a lot of the
revenue let's say in in healthcare was
from Medicaid the insurance
>> was Medicaid insurance and private pay.
>> Private pay similar to today really.
>> Yeah. Very basically. Yes. Mhm.
>> Uh so after you moved on as from the
association you left healthcare or
>> No, I was in the healthcare for quite a
long time.
>> So how many years?
>> Even even I'm still in the healthcare
business.
>> You still Okay.
>> Yeah. I developed other businesses in
the as we went along but basically I'm
still in the healthcare business. I
still have facilities that I own that I
leased out. My son is running two other
facilities and I have two other
facilities that's leased out to somebody
else. And I have other businesses that I
went into over the years and and I gave
up administration of the my facilities a
long time ago. I hired administrators
that rent the facilities for me and
eventually I leased it out. So when
someone builds a business, a big piece
of it is scaling, right? As you grow and
you get bigger. So how were you able to
do that from 53 beds to 120 beds to
becoming president of an association?
How did you scale that and be able to
handle all that additional uh
>> a lot of work, a lot of hours, and a lot
of patience.
>> And basically, that's what it takes.
>> And I used to get up at uh 7:00 in the
morning and go do I used to go from
Davening straight to the office and I
didn't get home till 10:00 at night.
>> Right. Mhm.
>> But but you were able
>> that was a routine day
>> and and so but I know there's also the
ability to be able to delegate, right?
So how how were you able to you probably
have to hand off some of the
>> Well, of course many of the issue many
of the things that had to be done on a
daily basis, I delegated. I had a
secretary that uh you know followed up
on many of the paperwork requirements. I
had other managers. I had a kitchen
manager. I had administrators that I
told delegated certain things to them.
They let them run it. I supervised them
on a regular basis. We had regular
meetings with them to make sure that
they do the right job and the right
thing and and and as things went on, it
became more and more situation where
they developed their own knowledge and
they were trained well and we got other
administrators that came and assisted
administrators. We trained them as well
and they became also the venture
administrators on other facilities.
>> So it was an ongoing process. I mean
>> the the whole fact in the business is
you have to put in your hours and you
have to have your patience. You can't
get rich overnight.
>> You know, you have to have the due
diligence and you have to study at the
situation and you have to work at it
very hard. Like I said, I used to leave
the house at 7:00 in the morning and not
get home till 10:00 at night.
>> Right. And I'm I'm very I want to just
take a little step back really for all
our listeners. I you know, I appreciate
Alex. you know, a lot of these things
you've done, but it's important that we
emphasize all of the stages that you
went through from really you started
from scratch. I mean, you didn't have
you didn't even get married and be
supported. It sound like
>> No,
>> no, no one's no one supported.
>> No one supported you in Kuddle. uh you
start literally you know pedled wares
around the country or and you started
from from scratch and built and built
and built and I want everyone to
appreciate and see how the stages every
stage of that journey went you know it's
uh so back to where we were before so
the uh when you were growing the
business um did you find it hard to
delegate to other people to do certain
things? Oh, no. Uh, not really. I mean,
I had a choice either do everything
myself or have somebody else do it for
me. So, obviously, I chose for somebody
else to have it do it for me because I
just possibly could not do everything by
myself, right?
>> You know, I couldn't rip myself apart. I
had a facility in Far Rockway where I
started with and I had a facility out in
Bohemia, Long Island, which I started
construction there. And from there, I
had a facility in Havstra, New York.
Okay. So I don't know if you know
anywhere of any distances but it used to
go from far away to to to Bohemia Long
Island was an hour and from Bohemia Long
Island to go to Havstra and New York was
an hour and a half.
>> Oh wow.
>> So I used to do this like three times
you know three different locations
almost on a daily basis. Okay. That's
why I got home at 10:00 at night and I
used to have administrators in different
facilities. that I used to delegate
authorities that I used to supervise
them and there was a lot of things
involved in the healthcare facility.
There was food ordering, there was there
was maintenance of the building, there
was there was management of the staff,
there was a management of the patients,
uh food ordering, a kitchen, you know,
there was a many many different aspects
of a healthcare facility that I was
involved with and I trained people for
it. Okay. The cook that I hired had to
be trained. He came from a restaurant
>> and you trained and I trained him.
>> Okay. and and and and and and the
dietician trained the cook how he has to
cook in order to meet the dietary
requirements for certain caloric intakes
for certain patients.
So this was all a part of training. I
learned it on my own. Okay. But I once I
learned it, I was able to teach somebody
else to do it.
>> Right.
>> And that's what it was.
>> Right. So uh did you you had partners at
some point in this
>> I had at one point 12 partners.
>> Okay. I want to so I want to talk about
that a second. Tell me um or tell
everyone how a good partnership is
created and structured if you can give a
basic.
>> I had no choice because I had no money.
So I took in partners after a while they
took me in because they heard I was a
good worker.
>> So they took me in as being their
workers so to speak and for that I got a
small piece of the pie.
>> Right.
>> Okay. So that's the way it went. And so
I bought a second facility. I took in
two partners and I didn't want to take
any other partners because they were
really not interested in going any
further than into this business. I took
two other partners of that facility who
laid out substantial amount of monies.
We bought a property out in Bohemia,
Long Island. Uh and a 7 and 12 acre
property and I started filing for plans
and permits. All that cost a fortune of
money and then we at that time we put in
about a million and a half dollars into
construction, buying the property and
started to work,
>> right? I hired a a construction company
to do the job
and um and they everything went along
fine for about six months into the
construction. Then all of a sudden I
started getting letters from the
subcontractors that haven't been paid.
I'm going to put a lean on the job
and that was electrician. And then a
week later I got a call from a plumber
that I haven't been paid. And all of a
sudden, I got myself into a situation
where I had a meeting with a
construction guy with a builder. As
what's going on? I got a letter from
this guy, this guy. You know, I haven't
paid him. They going to lean the job.
What am I going to do? It's ridiculous.
Well, don't worry about it. We'll take
care of it. This, that, and the other
thing. This went on and before I turn
around, there was a half a million
dollars worth of leans on my building.
>> The bank stopped giving more money.
>> And I went to the bank and I told them
what the situation was. And I told him,
I got rid of the contractor. I got all
the subs working for me now directly and
I ran the job and I finished the
construction of 175 bed facility myself.
>> It took me a year.
>> Oh wow. Wow. So at when you were
building the facilities and the business
um you pro you borrowed a lot from the
banks. I'm assuming
>> I borrowed at that time $3.5 million
which is a lot of money. And do you have
recommendation for someone who's
financing a lot how much they should
have in equity and cash and
>> see the banks usually don't give you
more than 40 more than 60% loan loan to
value ratio.
>> Okay? So you have to have at least 40%
of your own money invested or your
partnership money whatever the case may
be
>> and the banks will give you 60%. Today
it's a little different you know today
sometimes they give you 75% also right
>> and they charge you higher interest and
so it's a different situation
>> right right okay as a so as far as the
partnership was concerned I mean do you
you got along with your partners
>> I got along with them to certain extent
uh they did nothing I did all the work
and they came in and they uh found
sometimes to uh praise me sometimes to
criticize me I guess was a part of their
duties
>> uh but after a while I got a situation
where I started getting a different
partners group in and and some of my
partners decided to retire. I bought out
their interest with a different group of
partnersh
>> and little by little I managed to get a
higher partnership rate. Okay, more
percentage in the business and I bought
some all of these partners out
eventually. I right now ended up having
three partners after having 12 partners
after 10 years of going on in the
business back and forth and buying
different pieces of parcels and one
facility I did on my own. side has
substantial cash coming in to be able to
get by pay off all the other partners
and that's what I did
>> 10 years. So when would you say so from
start to finish when did you say you hit
the point where you were profitable and
then to the point where you would say um
you know you hit like success how how
long was that process? I don't know if I
hit success even now. You know, there's
no end to success.
>> I mean, there's no end to right.
>> But to the point where you're, you know,
let's say very profitable like how long
did that take? I want people
>> 15 years.
>> Yeah. I would say about 15 years where I
was able to say that I'm comfortable
with what I'm doing. Uh I'm making a
decent living. Um I am I am satisfied
the way my companies were doing. uh you
know I I I I u I was felt a certain
amount of accomplishment you know 15
years 16 years uh I did okay I felt good
I felt good about it okay
>> right right I just again I want to
emphasize that to the business uh owner
people people that are building their
businesses that it can take a very long
time till you see what you want to see
right 15 years from start to finish
that's a
>> it's it's it's a long life in business
It's a struggle.
>> It's a struggle.
>> But again, you know, you have to you
have to you have to be with it. If you
want to if you want to have success in
life, you got to stick to it.
>> You got to stick to it.
>> And you know, you don't get rich
overnight,
>> right?
>> Okay. The same people that get rich
overnight get very poor overnight very
fast also, right?
>> So that's not it's not a motto to
follow. Uh to be diligent in the
business, you have to work hard. There's
no question about it. You have to work
hard. You have to work with common
sense. And if you don't know something,
go out getting advice before you do
something. it doesn't cost you a lot of
money,
>> right?
>> So, uh, asking advice from people is not
an embarrassment. I've done that many of
times.
>> Well, that's a good point. What would
you say? Like you had mentors and
>> I had certain people and mentors in in
the healthcare industry that I went to
and I asked a question and I asked them
to follow up on me. I asked for
recommendations
uh for for partnerships. I asked
recommendations uh in certain in certain
types of of banks who deal with and
construction companies. I've gotten a
lot of information, a lot of help from
other people in the industry. Uh I was
more or less the the youngest guy going
into the industry those days. Everybody
was twice my age.
>> Wow.
>> You know, so they looked upon me as a as
the new kid on the block, so to speak.
So I got some help from some of these
people
>> and it helped me a lot a great deal
obviously.
>> So and let me know if you're okay
answering this. What about mistakes? Do
you see that you made some mistakes?
>> Oh yes. I'm not embarrassed to say I
made mistakes. Everybody makes mistakes.
>> And we could talk about them uh
>> and what you learned from them.
>> Yeah, I of course I learned from them. I
I made mistakes in the sense that uh
that I've lost money on certain deals. I
lost money on on cert some deals that
that I thought was going to be
successful and profitful. They were not.
>> Uh I had a facility out in Belleport,
Long Island that I leased out, brand new
facility that I leased. I put a manager
in there. I filled up the facility
eventually 160 bed facility.
It didn't work out simply because of the
distance was tremendously very far. Uh
my administrator was not good. I fired
him. I got another administrator. Didn't
do much better. I fired him as well. I
ended up being the administrator for two
months there. Used to travel every
morning from Far Rocko out to Belleport,
Long Island, which was a trip.
>> Where is Where is
>> an hour and a half? You know where river
River Riverhead is?
>> Riverhead. Oh wow. So this is about 20
minutes from Riverhead
>> Eastern way out.
>> It was way out in the end of the world.
And so so I did that. That was a mistake
I did. But I learned I learned and after
a while decided to sell the facility.
>> What was the mistake? What would you say
hiring?
>> The mistake was that there was inapt
inapph.
>> Okay. Inapp management. Also the
facility was located in such a place
where was difficult for patients to get
to. It was an industrial area. Uh many
people did not want to put their parents
into that particular area. It was far
away from residential neighborhoods. It
was in a factory area. Uh was not the
best location for the building to be at.
But it was there. It was ready made. So
I bought it. I went into it. I leased
it. And after a while, I bought the
building and I managing it for two
couple years. I was not successful
getting a decent manager. And while
after a while, I sold the facility and I
made a couple of dollars on it. So I
made all my aggravation back plus I had
money left over from the grief.
>> So it worked out there at the end but
again there was a mistake.
>> Right. Right. So why would you say you
know off the top of your head um why
some businesses or businessmen succeed
and some fail?
>> I would say perseverance, working hard
and using a little common sense.
>> That's right.
>> And those are three things that are very
necessary in a business.
Not, like I said before, and I don't
want to sound repetitive, but not
everybody's cut out for everything in
life. You know, you have to have a
certain personality and and a and a and
a
a knowledge of certain things to be able
to go into certain businesses. Uh some
businesses are suitable for one person
may not be suitable for other people.
The different types of p businesses are
suitable for different people. I am to
like the healthcare business because it
was a people business. I like to deal
with people. I enjoy dealing with
people. Uh I enjoy seeing the fact that
the parent that children came to see
their parents and they were happy and
satisfied with the services that they
received gave me a certain amount of
satisfaction. Um you know those are the
things that certain people enjoy. You
know uh like I said you know the the the
business world today is like I said is a
lot different than it was those days. In
many ways it's a lot easier. In many
ways it's a lot harder. Mhm.
>> Competition today is is is probably a
little bit stiffer, more difficult in a
sense, not from the competition itself
itself, but from the regulation source,
>> rules and regulations and so on. Uh
today to get a license in a healthcare
facility is three and a half to four
years.
>> Right?
>> My days I got it in 3 months.
>> Uhhuh.
>> It was a big difference.
>> Bureaucracy today is just horrible. But
you got to live with it. There's nothing
else you can do with it.
>> Right. But even in your journey, right?
uh you know it took you some time to
figure out what you wanted to do even
right you tried your hand here hand
there
>> exactly it's the only way to know
>> people people I think sometimes feel
that they have this magical career
that's floating around somewhere and
they just have to grab it but meanwhile
you have to discover
>> those people looking for the magical
things that happened to them you know
for 5 10 15 20 years before they turn
around end up to be 45 years old
>> and
>> and they're still looking
>> they're still looking you have to be
willing to go through a discovery
process, right?
>> Well, you have to really analyze
yourself
>> and see what is your preference in life
and that's where it starts. And again,
you know, there's there's no big magic
to business. The magic to business is
perseverance and hard work.
>> Right. Right.
>> And if you were willing to put the time
and effort into it, you could be
successful at it. If not,
>> Right. So, what other businesses I know
you were very involved. Let's start with
um I don't know if maybe you don't want
to bring this up, but I knew you were
involved with Rivlab busing.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. So, how was that? Because I
>> Well, I bought that company. I bought
the Rivlab bus company, school buses. I
bought a school bus company because of
the fact that I subcontracted. I had a
daycare treatment program that I
contracted with some of my facilities
patients going out to daycare programs
and and I used Rivlab bus. I used 10 of
their buses and I continuously had
problem with the bus company showing up
on time. This that and the other thing.
I went over to the manager one day. I
said to him, "What's going on here? You
know, I hire I'm contracting you from 10
buses a day. Cost me x amount of dollars
and you're not showing up on time. I'm
losing business. You know what's going
on?" Well, he tells me his whole life
story that he had trouble with his aunt
and uncle who are partners of his and
his father died and left him part of the
business, but his aunt and uncle are
really the majority owners. got trouble
with them, this that and the other
thing. I said to him, "Are they looking
to sell?" He said, "Maybe they're
looking to sell." I said, "Why don't you
buy them out?" I don't have any money to
buy them out. So, I said, "Tell you
what, let me go talk to them. Let me see
if they're willing to sell out." And
eventually they sold out. I bought the
company
>> Rivla. This was
>> Riva. This was Riva bus company. That
time the company had about 90 buses.
>> And And where did they work? They worked
at
>> They basically did schools. They did the
local Yeshivas. They did
>> uh uh uh some public schools they had as
contract. It was a business that was
going, you know, struggling, going along
along.
>> Uh I bought the company. I invested
about $3 $400,000 in new equipment and
so on. And the garage was in shambles.
Had to be a new garage because there was
doing the work on the buses was over
there in the garage itself. So I
revamped the garage and we we started
getting more business and I ended up
buying 10 new buses every month for the
next 3 months. Oh wow.
>> So we bought 30 new buses. Actually it
wasn't new. It was used but it was in
good condition
>> and we refurbished and we cleaned them
up. We painted them and so on and we
started go out and get more business. In
the interim I had more use for my some
of those buses myself from my own
business because I had developed a a day
treatment program. We used to take
patients from different facilities to a
daycare program. And so I needed instead
of 10 bus, I needed like at this point
like 17 or 18 buses that I used on a
daily basis. So I sort of paid myself to
the bus company from the nursing home. I
paid myself to hire the buses and for
the day programs, you know.
>> So that's how I ended up owning the
company Rivlad
>> and and you sold it recently.
>> I sold it two years of I know six years
later,
>> right?
>> Six years later I have sold the company.
Uh there was the whole turnaround in the
industry in the school bus system where
where many companies that were smaller
companies had were consolidated by
purchase they bought out by a bigger
company
>> right
>> and so it didn't make any sense for me
to stay in business because the day
treatment program was minimally reduced
almost to nothing. So the only purpose I
had for the company was to do the day
treatment program for my own business.
But no longer came a situation where I
needed it. So I figured I sold out. I
sold the company to a major company that
had like they're in 15 states that
basically was sold out to them.
>> So would you consider that Riv was a
good investment or
>> it was a it was an investment that that
was very useful for my purposes at that
time.
>> Uh it didn't make a lot of money but it
certainly covered all the expenses and I
employed you know over 125 people there
and I employed three guys that were
Sharma Chavez and so it worked well in
that sense
>> right? So it was service your other
business.
>> There was another business but the other
the offshoot was that I I benefited my
other companies
>> right
>> and made some money on the sale. I made
some money.
>> Right. Um so what else were you were you
involved in? I know you have also an
ambulance company.
>> Yeah. Is that
>> we start up the ambulance company?
>> How does that work? How do you what's
the basics of that business? Well, I had
a lot of patients and I noticed a lot of
my patient were being picked up by
ambulletes from my place to go to the
doctor's office for appointments and so
on. So, I said to myself one day I'm
looking out the office and I see three
ambulance build up in front of my
facility. Picked up three different
patients. Said to myself, why do I let
these companies do it? Why don't I do
open up an ambulance company myself? Let
me do it for myself. What's the problem?
>> Well, who who pays the ambulances in
those?
>> It's a Medicaid charge. It's an
insurance and all sorts of insurance.
Medicaid, Medicare. It was also third
party insuranceances that were paid. So
I decided to go and find out what does
it take to get a license. I started
digging and found out find a company
that had a license in Staten Island that
they never used. It's sitting around and
made quite a few phone calls. I bought
the license from them. I transferred the
license to my name and I bought one
ambullet. My wife was the first driver
of that ambullet
and she got a commercial license. She
got a commercial license and she was the
first driver that we had an ambulance. I
had the company got other customers and
other businesses. We had 160 ambulance
after 3 years.
>> Wow. And you so you basically said to
Medicaid, Medicare that you have an
ambullet license company that's licensed
and you
>> Well, it wasn't it didn't depend on
them. We had to go out and get business
from different facilities that needs
different types of ambulances.
Ambulance, right?
>> For instance, I had the Belleview
contract for a long time Bel Manhattan
discharge patients that we used to go
there, pick up patients and bring them
to the five burrows,
>> right? And and what was your pitch? So
your pitch was
>> our pitch was that we provide you this
service, good service where we even
offered a Belleview 24-hour day service,
okay, which was very helpful for them
because the other company didn't want to
offer it. We lost money on the 24-hour
service, but we also had a lot of day
service. So, at the night time, they had
to have two or three ambulance sitting
there and hardly maybe one or two times
the ambulance went out and we got build
for it, right?
>> The other two are sitting around doing
nothing all night. So, that was a big
advantage for us because we got the day
contract. So, that's how we ended up
there. We also did a lot of business
with dialysis centers. We get good
service. We picked out the patients on
time, delivered the patients on time and
so on. So, we were doing okay. We had
like I said we did very well in the
business. Uh we we we uh until co co
came along and a lot of the business
sort of dropped out. Patients had to go
with uh with cabs rather than with
ambulletes and so that took a lot of
toll on the business. So we ended up
with about 40 40 uh vehicles after the
uh co and that's what we kept it out
till now. Today we're running at 40
vehicles or so. We do day treatments and
so on and different types of operations.
Right. And I I see a pattern that you
know you were in the healthc care uh
industry and you were thinking about out
of box ideas of how to branch that out
really and build businesses from there.
>> It all stemmed from the healthcare
industry. The ambulad business came from
a healthcare industry. I had at one
point 1500 employees. So I decided to
open up a payroll company. Did my own
payroll the company called StaffPro. Uh
right now we're in 15 states and we're
doing uh quite a bit of companies and
quite a bit of business.
>> Wow.
>> Thank God.
>> Right. So I think that's a good point to
emphasize how when you're in a business,
you can expand within that business, but
just think
>> expansion. Yeah. Horizontal expansion.
>> Horizontal uh just moving. You see an
opportunity in the payroll space. So
make your own payroll company. Basically
that's how it's uh
>> that's how it started. Um so yeah a
question just um to understand why you
were going through this journey Alex how
how what role did your wife play and was
she instrumental in in your success?
>> Well let me just tell you without my
wife I couldn't have done what I've
done. Okay. She was uh of course taking
care of three kids at home by herself.
Uh shopping everything the household had
to be done. She did basically
everything. I used to come home 8:30,
9:00, 10:00 at night. You know, I was
dead tired. And the next morning, I was
up at 7:00 and gone. So, she did
basically all the housework, everything
had to be done. Take the kids to school,
take kids to the doctor, and so on and
so forth. Without her, there's no way I
could have done this.
>> And um and it's amazing how you're
emotional about it. Um I mean, that's we
should all, you know, digest it for a
little bit. Um, but what about like
giving you like psychological support,
emotional support throughout your
journey?
>> She gave me all of the support. Yeah. At
times when you weren't sure what you
were supposed to do, she gave you
encouragement.
>> Absolutely. She encouraged me to stick
with it because it's something that I
wanted to do. She encouraged me to stick
with it and work it out and she gave me
some advice on occasion and it was all
very helpful. Like I said, you know, uh,
having somebody at home that can be
helpful and have be able to sit down and
have a talk out about certain things.
There's nothing like it. It's
unbelievable. And I was very lucky to
have her, my wife.
>> Right. So people people should
understand and hear that when you're
building a business,
>> I mean, I can say it also, especially
when you're building a business, you
need
>> the support of the spouse. I don't think
not only is it is it needed, I think
it's necess it's necessary.
>> Absolutely necessary. No question about
it.
>> And it wouldn't work if you know I'm
assuming like you're saying it wouldn't
have worked without her support and
>> and um so that's another piece of
important advice.
>> It is.
>> Yeah. I know now also you're in solar
power. How did that
>> it was that that was a simply an
investment that people came to me 10
years ago and uh wanted me to invest
with them. I saw the good opportunity.
Solar is a free energy.
You can't get free energy today only by
if you have a solar on your rooftop. So
I thought it was a good business, a good
invention and decided to become a
partner. We opened up a factory. We ran
it and we're still running it to certain
extent. We have some competition today.
A lot of people are in the business,
>> but we're now looking to expand now for
the second expansion, and we're doing
okay with it.
>> Right.
>> Yeah.
>> Right. Okay. Um, so we're almost uh at
the conclusion. Um, I definitely learned
a lot from here. I'm curious though to
understand how the mayor of Lawrence uh
position came about. What got you into
that?
>> Was that something a fun a side hustle?
What was that? No, it was not a side
hustle at all. Actually, I'm involved in
many community matters,
>> right? Okay.
>> I wanted to speak about that a not
really part of our theme, but I think
it's a very helpful.
>> I was involved many community matters
and I saw certain things um that were
not run the right way particularly the
village of Lawrence at that time was not
uh running the way it should be running
at my opinion at least. and I decided to
become a trustee. Actually, one of the
the mayors, the for one of the former
mayors asked me to become a trustee in
the village of Lawrence. I was really
hesitant at that time to do it. I got
too many other things to do, but I
figured it only takes like uh couple of
hours a month. I said, "What the heck?
Let me do it." And as a trustee, I
learned more and more things about
what's going on in the village of
Lawrence.
>> What does it mean a trustee? A trustee
of what?
>> The village of Lawrence has a mayor and
four trustees. Basically, those are the
people that run the office of the
mayorship in the village of Lawrence.
>> Uhhuh.
>> And so I became a trustee. I became a
trustee for uh four years. Okay. Then I
ran for office of the mayor because the
mayor retired. He insisted I should run
for mayor and I did. I ran for mayor. I
won uh the first time, second time,
third time.
>> How long is the term for as a mayor?
>> The term is for two years. Three times
for two years. And but in my case
situation, I ended up having a fourth
term, which was the most unusual thing
that ever happened in the history of
laws. That never happened before
>> that anybody should have more than three
terms.
>> Oh wow.
>> Three two two year three terms.
>> And but I had a fourth year, fourth
term. And we're successful. We brought a
lot of things about. We improved the
building department. We changed certain
zoning laws on the village of Lawrence.
uh we allowed the third floor height to
be given to many people that wanted a
bigger bigger house. Uh we protected the
sidey yards and the environment in
general. So we did a lot of things. We
we improved the the finances in the
village of Lawrence. We did a lot of
things that was very beneficial for
village of Lawrence. Uh when I left the
village of Lawrence in excess of $12
million in a bank.
>> Wow. So what did you who do you interact
with as the mayor? You interact with
politicians. We interacted with
politicians in Nassau County on a
constant basis. We interacted with the
chief of police and the police
department very heavily and very active
for security purposes. Uh we installed
cameras security purpose in all the 12
entrances into the village of Lawrence
which is monitored on 24-hour day basis.
Uh we worked very closely with the with
the especially on the holidays where
half of the lawns goes away for Passover
holidays to have extra patrols for
police department. Uh we've done a lot
of uh other things in the village of
Lawrence and paving the streets uh sewer
system that were done the water
department which improved a lot of the
fire hydrants. A lot of fire hydrants
did not have enough pressures. We made
them install new ones for the safety of
the people in case of a fire god forbid.
We've done a lot of things. A tremendous
amount of work that was done during my
tenure as mayor. And I'm proud to saying
that they the continuation is still
going on,
>> right? I mean, people don't know this. I
I don't think people are realize or me
personally see how the mayor of Lawrence
actually does stuff for the village. You
know, it's a you actually helped
>> actually the mayor of Lawrence, which is
now the mayor of Lawrence and when I was
the mayor of Lawrence and the previous
mayors, they all do for the village of
Lawrence actually. That's their
function. That's the job.
>> Is is it a like a a good well-paying job
or it's more volunteer work?
>> I don't even We didn't even get a dollar
a year. Nobody gets paid in the village
of Lawrence as a mayor, as a trustees.
Nobody gets paid.
>> It's all volunteers.
>> Wow.
>> Yeah.
>> Oh, wow. other villages do get paid and
it get certain other health care
benefits for the village of Lawrence is
an honorary position.
>> Uhhuh. So,
>> so not only do you get the grief but you
have to work for nothing as well.
>> Well, thank you very much for that for
for your service if that means anything.
>> Yeah.
>> What other just uh you know concluding
soon but what other community matters
were you involved in and what can you
teach us our audience? What did you
learn? I was involved in building the
Dora project for two years of my time.
>> Which project?
>> The project that's now that was there
before this new one started
>> before the new one.
>> Before the new one, the other four
buildings that where we I built
>> I was involved in TAG originally built
the first auditorium in TAG in 1975.
Wow. Way back then.
>> I was involved from the beginning with
Dora when we had like 65 kids. Okay. Uh,
I was involved in SIKU. I was the one
that got them the mortgage and built a
building for them.
>> Which one? The one on
>> Sak on Beach N Street.
>> One on Beach N Street.
>> One Beach N. Yeah. We sold the building
on Central Avenue, the old building.
>> Right. Right.
>> And we built a building on Beach N
Street. We had We bought the property
sitting there empty for four years and I
get a call one day uh to see if I can do
a help for them out. So, I helped them
out. We ended up doing the construction
and the and the and the mortgage. All
within two years, the building was up.
>> Right. I remember.
>> Yeah. So I was involved in that. I've
done other things. A few shs here and
there, but you know that's what it is.
You live in the community. It's a part
of my life.
>> We're Mayor Balines, right? That's all.
>> Well, we do a lot of other functions.
Sedokus, Mayor Balines. We do a which is
a very worth organization in Israel
taking care of orphans and Balines of
course doesn't need introduction
been around for almost 100 years,
>> right? It's an organization in Israel
that prepares a lot of people.
>> Right. Okay. So, wrapping things up
here, Alex, it was really again
privilege, pleasure to have you. So much
wisdom that you're Yeah. really. It's
>> you know, it's a lot of uh life
experience. Um but
>> how would you end off um with a you
know, message that you have for people
specifically to to building a successful
business and a successful life?
Obviously, not everything's up to us,
but you know, you lived through a lot
and have done a lot to get to where you
are today. What would you say a message
is for people to to learn from that?
>> Well, to work hard, of course, is a
quite prerequisite if you want to be
successful in life. Uh, be honest, be
straight, say,
and say till every day.
>> Right. Okay. That's uh that's it. Yeah.
Yeah. No, this you don't need to make it
long and uh complicated. Thank you very
much, Alex. And anyone who has uh
comments, questions, please contact us
and we'd love to hear some feedback.
>> Okay. Thank you very much.