Choosing a Marriage Partner - Rabbi Akiva Tatz

[Music] [Applause] [Music] so so let me make um a map if you like of the criteria that I think makes sense to choose in a when you when you're looking for a suitable marriage victim uh marriage um partner what are the criteria that you should be looking for so let me try to map out what I think are uh criteria that Mak sense experience shows to be important Torah sources make these things clear and uh try to emphasize more some of the variables that are important to mentors and people working in this field helping young people helping others get married because a few months ago we discussed the subject I want to cover exactly the same ground so let's try to to uh uh point it in that direction I think just to to give it a framework I think when looking for someone suitable to marry I think a sensible way to do it is to make a red line and I put above that red line two non-negotiable criteria two things that are absolutely essential without which relationship will be in trouble and below the red line negotiables negotiables don't mean things that are not important in fact they may be critical but they're not universally important for example you know um let's say health should you marry somebody who's healthy I think that's negotiable I used to know a young couple that I I met and I used to see every day this young woman was taken up for treatment and two years later she died when I went to see the young man he told me that they got married 4 years before when they got engaged she told him she had terminal cancer he married her anyway and he said it was the most wonderful four years of his life okay but not everybody could do that now he's looking to get married again for some people that would be out of the question others could handle it other variables the young lady's mother some young ladies have mothers who are nice others need a place to park their broom when they visit you know and uh for some young men they say I need to marry into a warm loving family others will say you know it's no problem we live in Alaska we won't have a phone it'll be fine and there many other variables that could wreck a marriage attitudes to money many other things like that but they're not universally important but they two I think that are universally important by the way when we talk about the non-negotiable criteria I'm assuming of course that there's some absolutes that already exist right absolutes would be the young man setting out to get married the person who's thinking of marrying should be female right you know that's still a Jewish value even though it's becoming much less popular but that is still an approach we have not only that the person must be Jewish not because you can't have a wonderful relationship with a non-jew of course you can but kushin is the meshing of those two opposites that we that are male and female and therefore and by the way the reason for this the Deep reason is because we understand that a marriage is a reconstitution of original Oneness according to cabalistic teaching husband and wife are RAR two fused halves that were torn apart before being brought down to the world according to cabala gamorra says that they were fused back to back and brought down into the material world by being split apart having to face each other back to back is wonderful because it means there's no back there's no vulnerable Dark Side the back in spiritual thinking is always the side of contamination excretion Darkness unrecognizability the front is the side of kadua of sanctity so there's no back it's just two fronts but there's no relationship and then they torn apart and brought down to the world to face each other make that relationship with a vulnerability that's involved and therefore really a marriage is a reconstitution the reason you can't marry a non-jew is not because you can't have a good relationship with a non-jewish person but because by definition they're not the two halves of that same original you know very beautiful way of saying this is that when that original Jewish marriage which was the original archetypal Jewish marriage not Jewish Aban Sara right when their marriage their marriage policy if you like is stated it's at the moment they cross the border from Egypt to Israel from Israel to Egypt as they move from the world of sanctity to the world of contamination Egypt was a place of terrible depravity and as they cross the border he turns to his wife and he says please tell them you're my sister the Torah is never talking practical strategy always something deeper than that and what's being said there is in the root of Jewish marriage is that every husband should think of his wife as his sister because brother and sister are two separate people who come from a Caron origin in fact the word in Hebrew which means a brother or a sister means to stitch together something torn that was once one means to stitch together and therefore these are two human beings who are once one and they come into the world as separate people have to reunite and reassert that original Bond that's the brother sister Bond of course it's no accident that AB AO Abraham is one is called the one who stitches together a torn world he unites Heaven and Earth which cabalistic are male and female as well and every Jewish marriage is an echo of that so that is a that's an essential and the others as well for those of you who work in this field another one would be the fact that let's say a young woman knows she cannot have children if she can't have children that raises issues because since we only marry one today right we only marry one partner one man one woman so if the young man knows the woman cannot have children there's an issue because part of the Mitzvah of marriage is to have children a man has a Mitzvah to have children so if the girl cannot have children there's an issue how's that handled there ways to handle that one young woman once came to ask she told me she was born without ovaries which means she can carry a pregnancy she has a womb uterus but she cannot conceive she said to me who's going to marry me but if you tell me that it's allowed for me to use the Egg of another woman my husband will fertilize the egg and then I will carry that pregnancy if he fulfills his mitzah that way then I'll be able to get married and it's a very difficult question it's not ideal although s surrogacy in that sense is certainly certainly allowed it's not forbidden but there many issues I'm not going to go to now unless you have a particular interest in that field but a better option for her for example would be to marry a a man who cannot have children or to marry a man is already fulfill the Mitzvah of having children in fact the gamor says an amazing thing the gor says that if a man loses his wife and he has young children he can marry in the first week of mourning for his wife they can't live together intimately cuz he's a mourner but why should the children be motherless and so to become a mother to children who already exist in the world who need a one wonderful Mitzvah and there are various ways of handling that question so there's some absolute issues by the way a fascinating question is why do women not have a Mitzvah to get married in the first place a man's Mitzvah to get married right women don't have a mitzah to get married at all why not so once a young girl said to me very very special young girl very talented amazing young girl the fact that she's my daughter is completely irrelevant but she said to me she would like to ask my Rabbi a question see it so next time we saw him we sat down and she said I have two questions for you my first question is why do I not have a mitzah to get married if God wants me to get married Hashem wants me to get married he would have instructed me if he hasn't given me a mitah to get married evidently doesn't want me to get married so why why should I why do I have no Mitzvah to get married and secondly why was K cursed in an area that's optional isn't that interesting question Eve K was cursed that she would have difficulty pregnancy and pain in childbirth what sort of a curse is it when you say to a person you will have difficulty in this area but it's optional just don't do it if you don't want to you'd imagine that man and woman be cursed in an area That's essential that's intrinsic to their being when they pervert their way in the world but AEM said it's optional and he answered like this he said very he said that your your two questions have the same answer and that is that we are only given Mitzvah in areas of deficiency a Mitzvah is always given in an area where you're deficient the Mitzvah is an exercise in completion a classic example would be that women do not have Mitzvah that are time bound right women don't have time bound Mitzvah because women already resonate with time their body cycle with time in a way that that's very very mysterious you know the ovarian cycle there's no medical EXP ation fruit all other biological Cycles are connected to day night variation seasonal change temperature changes the over Cycles with the moon there's one female cycle that goes monthly starts on the same date of the Hebrew month whether it's a long month or a short month the ovary knows what the moon's doing medicine has no idea how that works so women resonate with a Time cycle they don't need Mitzvah to discipline them into that area and therefore Mitzvah is only given where you have a deficiency and and therefore the mitz for of marriage for men is they don't understand that naturally they need to be disciplined into that but a woman understands it naturally generally speaking it doesn't need a Mitzvah and therefore she's not given a Mitzvah not because hashm doesn't want her to marry but he doesn't need a force her into it and of course was cursed in an area that's of her Essence the fact that she wasn't she's not given a Mitzvah does not mean on the contrary it means it is so much of her Essence that she doesn't need a disciplining action in this area but be that as it may of course a woman fulfills the mitv when she gets married she becomes beholden to a husband's Mitzvah a woman cannot marry and then say she won't have children because once she takes on that Mitzvah she can't say it's going to be painful or dangerous under normal circumstances she needs to do that but let's talk about the two non-negotiables if you have questions about the medical issues and there many questions should one disclose a medical issue and when was done one disclose it we can talk about that but let's just make the map first I would say the first non-negotiable what would you say what's the first non-negotiable you're dating someone you met them a few times what the first question to ask I would say attraction I would say there must be a chemistry you must like the person physically there must be a certain enjoying being with them not a logical thing do you like pink I like blue it's a question of taste and this is very important and one of the classic errors we see in this area and again speaking to people who work in this field one of the classic errors we see in this area is is in the Baler world people who are newly religious brought up in a secular mode and they think to become religious means becoming very spiritual and the material and the physical should be ignored it's a serious mistake one young man many years ago said to me can we please talk about the woman young lady that he dating said yeah absolutely told me she was very spiritual and very the way she said to H him you know she was she could have been Mrs mashiah you know this lady was so after he told me all about her wonderful qualities I said to him do you like her and he said no said you know so religious that he wanted to marry but a woman is a spiritual being but she's also a material being and marriage has that side very important marriage is hard at the best of times and therefore there needs to be a natural attraction the G says especially for men man marries a woman should see her beforehand and contract a marriage on paper alone for women also it's important it's less important women are considered to be more mature and understanding the meaning of a relationship they'll put up with more or less not sure which but they'll find meaning in a relationship when a man might not be mature enough to do so but it's important and by the way again for people who work with young people it's also important to know people need the discipline to know that after marriage also pay attention to your to your parents because a young man he's looking good he's dating you know he's dating for the first time in 18 years he's wearing a clean shirt smelling like a flower the trouble is after marriage sometimes that change that changes you know shape starts to change subtly that's not respectful if you make yourself look good before marriage you have to make yourself look good afterwards women often guilty of the same thing they look stunning before marriage and then a few days after marriage they you know when they go out they look wonderful but at home they look like something the Cat Dragged In you know that's not respectful if you make yourself look nice beforehand you have to make yourself pay attention rman was in his 80s used to make himself look nice when he walked up the stairs to his home his wife's home that's respectful and you have to do that as well of course so attraction very important and it needs to be there we put it first because it's easiest to assess you meet a person a few times not necessarily once sometimes person grows on you but if you meet a person a few times you need to feel that there's that there's an attraction many people ask how attractive does suppose you have to look at the person and you know get sort of life-threatening asthma you know so it's a a it's a mild breathlessness you know that's a good sign right at least how attractive the person has to be I'm not sure it's so important you change with time pregnancy changes you age changes you but I think it has to be positive person there's a red line in this area too below the red line person you'd feel offensive you wouldn't want to be close to the person above the red line you feel positive you could be close to them I think it needs to be positive not necessarily there always be somebody more attractive but I think it needs to be it needs to be positive and I think this needs to work on both sides male and female I remember a young lady who very tensely anxiously knocked at my door one Saturday night what's the problem she told me she's getting married in 8 Days time Sunday a week and she feels now that the time is approaching she not sure she could be close to her husband physically she respects him as a wonderful person but she's been putting this aside and it's a problematic area so I said to her you think about it now and you make a commitment now you decide now you're going ahead with us and you never look back or you call it off now and she sat there at my table and she agonized over it for a long time and decided to get married they got married they got divorced on their wedding night she felt she couldn't go home with him that was the end of the marriage not good one young man came to see me a couple weeks after marriage looking very depressed can't live with his wife he can't be close to her I said why not she doesn't look like my mother I said what he said he always wanted to marry a girl who looked like his mother so and I we knew my wife and I were close to his wife she was a lovely girl very attracted Ive very special I said why did you marry her I said my Rabbi said it would be okay problematic problematic if you work with people you cannot take responsibility working with a person you're a Shan you're a mentor you teach people you work with people the young couple must take responsibility young whatever age they are if they don't put them their commitment into it if they don't take responsibility they're marry because you say it will be okay at 3:00 in the morning when things are difficult and it's not okay and they're not committed because they never made the decision you can't do that you can guide and you can show clarity and crystallize issues but they need to take responsibility it's true occasionally you can apply some pressure when it's clear we had one young man in England who was his only child and he lived only with his mother and 3 weeks before his wedding he started to get terrified I mean literally terrified he spent all day in bed in the fetal position crying but we knew it was just fear we knew I mean she was a wonderful girl he was clearly wanted to marry he was just too afraid so we carried him to Thea two rabbis we carried him to Thea in the fetal position crying and we held him we held him under the KOA and we managed to somehow do what he had to do and married for many years very happily that was just a case of sheer Terror but normally usually applying pressure and making decisions taking responsibility for a couple that's a bad mistake your job is to guide them into seeing with Clarity and helping them assess know themselves know each other but the responsibility and the commitment that has to be theirs so I think the first issue is there needs to be a a chemistry often it's cultural we are products of our cultures and our families once there's some sort of a uh a feeling as you heard before doesn't necessarily have to be similarities it could be differ it could be opposites it could be similarities once there's a connection that's I think very important and the second criteria without any question the most important by far is character the person the raw material that you can't afford to forget the discussion of similarities and differences PS into insignificance compared to an assessment of who the person actually is values values are important of course and if you have a difference in religious values for example that's a recipe for trouble recipe for disaster obviously there has to be a commonality of goal not necessarily the same level a person is very religious very knowledgeable could marry somebody who's a r a beginner provided there's aspiration and there's inspiration and there's enthusiasm to move in the same direction nothing wrong with that but what you cannot afford to overlook is who the person actually is the best you could hope for the best you could look for is somebody who's kind affectionate giving coping happy loving a normal South African if you choose somebody who's problematic Psychopathic Twisted hung up then you're in trouble unless you are Psychopathic and twisted and H then you'll be fine I think I mentioned last time we met a wonderful story about a sadist and a masochist who got married sadist and a Massac got married right wonderful as soon as the door was closed the massacr said to the sadist hurt me and the sadist said no perfect relationship so not everybody obviously people come with their issues people have baggage but the important thing is a compatibility can you handle this person in terms of their real personality marrying a person on the assumption that they will change change deeply very risky very risky it is a lifetime of work to change one characteristic people seldom manage to do that and therefore I think the most important Criterion is an assessment of who the person actually is many people young people tell me I need to marry somebody very intelligent okay maybe that's important if it's important to you it's important but it's not nearly as important academic intelligence is not nearly as important as as character as being a loving giving Above All Else a giving person I'll show you many people with many academic degrees whose personal lives are a shambles and other people who've got no academic intelligence they got wisdom in their hands they're now to conduct a relationship there's no substitute for that many young people tell me I have to marry somebody who's very intelligent you know they think they're going to have these long what my daughters called dnms right deep and meaningful they think they're going to sit up the all night with a husband speaking deep and meaningful you know from the moment you get married you'll never have another deep and meaningful discussion first of all who's got time and secondly you know what she thinks about the Southeast Asian geopolitical you know you can talk about that and therefore if you need someone to respect because they're intelligent if that's important to you that's fine but it's not a core issue emotional intelligence wisdom in relationships self-control refinement of Personality those things are core issues and so I think that the second non-negotiable has to be an assessment of the the person not The Superficial what you heard called interests before that's not that's not core how do you know the personality how do you get to know who the person genuinely is so one of the issues of course is some investigation what's the person's history person has a long constant friendships and loyalties it speaks very well for them and there's a lot you can tell from the person's life history but also one needs to spend enough time there's a movement in the religious world that emphasizes very brief relationships sometimes it works well but many times it's premature one needs enough time to get a feeling that you actually know the person how long I give you a rule of thumb a very basic rule is until no new information is coming in when you know that another date is not going to change your attitude about this person not going to give you new information about their values about who they are when you can predict what their response would be to life situations you can't afford to marry someone and then find out that you want 25 children they want to be sterilized but once you get to the point where you know how they respond that's a time when you know that another meeting is not going to change that attitude change your impression that's the time to get engaged or to split just causing more pain and more difficulty by spending more time you can accelerate the process by seeing them in different circumstances you visit the person's home walk into their home what's a family background see the parents are still married and there's soft music playing and there's loving relationships that's very good but if you walk into the home and there's blood on the walls and human bones strewn about it doesn't bode well you know it's been shown many times in Psychiatry and sociology psychology people repeat the patterns of their families unfortunately people who come from very fractured and and desperately unhappy backgrounds it has an effect especially when people are young a little girl of three or four or five if her father leaves or dies she may never trust Hashem again or trust men ever some people go through those things come out strengthened a very interesting pattern we've seen again for those of you who work in this area a pattern we see time and again is a person who comes from a very broken background very angry and painful background and they become religious very often they start looking at their parents instead of looking at them with pain and anger and frustration they start looking at them with pity if only my parents would have had more authentic Jewish values they never would have got into that broken relationship and then they make a choose a role model as you heard recommended that they admire and they see that marriage and shabus values and the family very healthy reconstruction very often I would say sometimes even stronger than they might have been otherwise but those are important things and again you can accelerate it you go and Young Man visits and you want to know how he behaves Under Pressure get your little sister to spill hot soup in his lap get the dog to bite him unexpectedly close the door hard on his fingers little healthy you know uh dealing with tests see how you response those things are important and I think that's by far the most important uh criteria there are cultural Norms here I tell you a story about a man I know who was brought up in May sharim how he got married and this is if you come from a western background where you've had many relationships and a lot of exposure in the in the background this is not for you say one young man came to see me and told him he's getting married in 3 weeks time he's very anxious why cuz they had many relationships before many intimate relationships in fact 136 he's been counting now he's is worried that his wife will not compare favorably that's a problem it's an issue but if Robin May sh him and you've had no contact with the opposite sex at all it's a different story so he told us when he was 18 his father came in one day and he said KN put on your shabas clothes so he said why his father never mind so he got dressed in his shabas outfit and his father walked him across from and he said to him say hello to your so he said hello and they said muo the man at the party in the one room the women had party in the another room on the way out his father said say goodbye to your K said goodbye said not her her oh he said oh goodbye and uh that was the only time they saw each other before the I mean they met they approved you know there were no standards of comparison their family has been Ling in the same sh for the last 350 years tremendous commonality of goals and Outlook they got married that particular story has an interesting ending that your follower and that is that for many years they were unable to have children and in those days they went to see the for a blessing and the gave them that they should have 18 living children and a few years ago they had their 19th so that is the story and that's not for 19 children is for you you definitely should have 19 children no question about that but marrying after one date is not appropriate if you come from a a background where that's not Norm so I think that in summary in summary there there are two non-negotiable criteria there's absolutes obviously and we get into the technicalities of medical issues and other things like that then they're non-negotiables and I think the two of them are natural attraction and the second I think is more important and that is raw the person who is the person before you talk about compatibilities and tastes and interests who is the person what are you dealing with in terms of raw material and after that there are many many negotiables that could be critical we've even seen culture mixes that are problematic unexpectedly so right for example I've seen a few times a young man from South Africa from England or America marrying a girl from a secular Israeli background often there's tension there girls from a secular Israeli background often very assertive very self-confident I mean how do you handle a wife who's got a submachine gun you know tactfully carefully so they're cultural issues right uh say many Western men English Americans South Africans Australians marrying women who are European or South American often works very well because South American women and many French and Spanish Italian women have a very natural femininity they're not conflicted about feminist issues some North American women especially from the East Coast sometimes have issues about feminist roles and that can be an issue so there are cultural mixes that can raise issues sometimes they're very enriching I met a couple once where the husband was from Uruguay and the wife was from Romania they told me they met just after the war and when they met they couldn't understand one word that the other one spoke and they got married they told me that was wonderful marriage they never argue you know cuz they can't so there's other forms of communication and those are some important issues so in summary I think those are very important I'm just going to add one word about medical issues because again we try to Target this to people who help others one of the commonest questions with medical or psychological issues is should this be mentioned initially many people many people have some or other issue family medical issue a personal issue they're taking medication for a mental problem a depression or anxiety is very common in our society and the question that always comes up is should this be said beforehand or not and I tell you what I think are some sensible rules first of all there are two approaches to this two possible General approaches one is that the problem should be stated up front it has many advantages there's no disappointment later no sense of betrayal the person knows what they're getting into things are open and there are many advantages many things to be said for that and sometimes unavoidable because there's a known issue it's obvious the family has an issue those are that's one way to handle the issue and by the way when it is handled that way or whenever information is disclosed very often a doctor gets involved being in that situation many times and the family gives permission for their doctor to disclose technical details to the other side and even then they're important rules one doctor has worked in this field for many many years decades in fact he told me he never agrees to do that unless he's given a permission for full disclosure son's family says you can talk about this and this but you can't say that and that is I'm not doing that if I'm being trusted to give information you give me permission to tell your medical facts then I disclose everything right I can't I can't be you know giving some information where they don't know this other that I can't do other no permission and then you deal with it or you give me permission to say to talk at my discretion and by the way I think a very important rule as a general rule not absolute but a general rule if you're working with somebody who's somebody a go between a sh let's say I think it's veryimportant important that that person knows the score particularly when you're not going to disclose the issue beforehand and I'll explain that but first of all one approach is to say there's a problem and deal with it up front and there's many things to be said for it but there's a problem the problem is first of all not everyone wants their personal intimate information out there when it doesn't need to be why do you have to go and announce things initially the nationship might not work and you've put out into the public domain very personal confidential things and secondly a very common response is when you hear the person has an issue very very often people don't want to meet them would you like to meet my friend who's got a serious problem you know no thanks and therefore that's an issue whereas and not only that when you meet somebody knowing there's a serious problem many young people see only the problem whereas when you meet someone you don't know there's an issue you give them a chance you see them as a whole person and then when the problem is mentioned it fits into context and that's speaks very well for the second approach the second approach is not to disclose initially that there's an issue but of course it has to be disclosed theic rule is that anything that might have made a difference to the decision could notify the contract and therefore it has to be disclosed when is a sensitive issue after two meetings after three meetings people have rules before five meetings before engagement needs to be judged on a case-by casee basis but is highly recommended often not to say the problem in advance and I think a sensible way to handle that is you're dealing with somebody you trust somebody is suggesting a match somebody's chosen somebody bearing in mind that there will be a disclosure of a problem they've already chosen somebody that's probably suitable why shouldn't it work if you haven't trusted the sh the Matchmaker the person that go between and then they suggest someone that's unsuitable and then here's the problem they feel betrayed and the thing breaks down but if they've chosen somebody suitable that they feel has the maturity to handle this or maybe they have their own issue which is compatible with yours that often works very well I must see I must say that in many years of experience I've never had a case I've never been accused or had the other party being accused of betrayal with anger and frustration I've had sadness and pain when there's a discovery of an issue that wasn't known before but when the person is told there was rabic advice was well taken they were told not to disclose and now after three meetings you're being told there's an issue it was done with with level-headed foresight I've never had anyone turn down and say you you betrayed me and I've had relationships that have collapsed at that point that's true but very often once the picture of the person has been built in a general way it fits in I have a friend many years ago got married who has only one eye he has only one eye he's a wonderful young man he happened to be a national Judo champion and and and excelled in many things he got one eye and when it came time to introduce him to young lady I knew that if I went up to a young lady and said would you like to meet my friend with one eye she probably would have said no so we decided not to mention it and she never noticed she did not notice he's got a very good glass eye and she never noticed and by the time it became an issue it was completely relevant and wonderful wonderful relationship so I think there's a lot to be said for that in fact probably that should be the general rule and I think it works very well when you dealing with a person who introduces you or introduces the person to someone else with intelligence and by the way I think that's a very important rule in general when you're dealing with somebody who good sense to introduce people who have a basis for a relationship not just he happens to be more or less male and she's more or less female so you know I think we should introduce that that's just heartbreaking people go through that and it's so it's so disappointing to be put into relationships that are obviously not going to work and how much do you need to do you need to know one or two people a few people who know you and understand you well that you trust who are mature who make sensible introductions you don't need moreas than that more more e the marriage comes from hasem anyway so you need to make an effort effort is to look nice smell nice act normal and have one or two people who know you and introduce you in a sensible fashion so I think those are some relevant points that we should bear in mind I'm going to stop here if there one or two questions that I can deal with I'll repeat the question I'm very happy to do so and then we'll stop for ab yeah the question here is that if we are assuming that husband and wife are what we call basher in other words in some sense destined complimentary halves of a whole how do we understand the torah's permission for a man to marry many women there's no really no problem with that those are all components of the same hole right for example he married a thousand women was a man of incredible wisdom and for every facet of his wisdom and every facet of his of his mess there was a woman to bring it to birth to bring it to expression so they're part of a composite composite hole oh that's another question the question is why can a woman not marry many husbands would you like that do it like it like yeah you see you see that a man can marry many women because maless means multi potential energy that's what maless means we refer to Hashem as male for example because he's the source of all things the Earth is always female the Earth which finally brings things to fruition in a finite sense is always female all the words for the earth and the world feminine the word female in Hebrew Nik means to make specific and limited were fixed by name right Nik feminine means to make finite and fixed and the cabalists say that the beauty of the male is infinite energy and the curse of the male it's only energy it's only potential the beauty of the female is bringing a thing to reality to birth and the curse of the female only this one and all the others that could have been are lost so femaleness means bringing a thing to fruition and it's a finite World things can only exist in the world in the form that they that they have so maleness is a multi- potential source and femaleness is a bringing to specific finite reality and so says the marala man can marry many women he is a multi potential Source but every woman and men have that that energy and that potential no woman in a right mind once's more than one husband I can assure you I mean one's usually more than you know more than enough the question question was what happens when there's admiration and respect and all the values are there but there just no chemistry there no gut level reaction no no how do you know when to cut it okay okay so and if there's not that then when do you call it of I really think that's a personal issue if you know yourself well enough to know that I've given this person a chance there's been time for them to grow on me I've seen their genuine Beauty and it's just not for me there's no personal attachment there just no feeling of of bond that could be established here it may happen in one date that's sometimes unwise but it may happen in two or three or four I think you meet a person five times if you want a rule of thumb and there's just no sense of compatibility at all you feel very distant you couldn't be close to them I think that's that's I think that's worrying if you mature enough by the way it doesn't matter if you mature enough but few people are these days sonnenfeld one of the great rabbis of the previous generation turn of the last century he s he was suggested a marriage was suggested for him and he agreed and when he met the young lady she turned out to be 10 years older than they told him and probably could not have children but he married her cuz he wouldn't upset her cuz he'd agreed already now you need to be a very big person for that as it happens they were married for a number of years and she never had children ultimately she died he married someone else and he had a family but he married somebody there was a a genuine reason not to there was false information that but he wouldn't let her down he wouldn't upset her so if you're the kind of person big enough that those values mean more to you than your own Self Indulgence and your own but you have to be very big for that a couple of years ago there was wedding in New York where the the groom just failed to arrive he just he just chickened out okay at the last minute and the color was standing there and he never arrived his brother was standing there and as soon as the brother realized what had happened without a moment's hesitation he stepped on the and married the girl so she shouldn't be embarrassed right look maybe you liked her I don't know but you know but if you're mature enough you can marry for the right reasons but few of us right even though we married to build love but it needs to feel goodas used to say if a love doesn't feel good it's worrying you're not getting married to feel good that's not marriage that's business or prostitution right you not married to feel good but if it doesn't feel good it's worrying if a relationship isn't feeling good there's a big difference between engaging relationship to feel good and engaging relationship for its meaning and it feels good too most of us need that the question is many marriages collapse sometimes very soon we see marriages collapsing at all stages what are some of the causes of collapsing marriage you know this is enormous question it has a very different profile in the religious world than it does in the secular world right you're well aware you heard before that the general divorce rate now is more than 50% in many places in California they quoted as two and three and California is the place where not many people get married in the first place I mean you'd assume when they do get married they really want to so we we're dealing with even in traditional Jewish communities right we're dealing with a very high divorce rate and I think it's a very big and Broad subject I'm not sure I'm capable of generalizing for you and I'm not sure that it's issues that were missed in the beginning very often people know each other very well and they live together very successfully and years down the line things collapse if you want one insight I would offer you R desas he says that the success of a relationship is built on the intensity of your giving which means you're giving intensely two people intensely trying to make each other happy it's a relationship for Bliss why wouldn't that work but two people engaging in a partnership I've got my duties you've got yours problematic recipe for civil war and therefore two people with the ideal starting with the ideal that I'm in this to make the other person happy and we'll enjoy that I'll enjoy that too if you don't this something wrong I think it's very unusual to see a relationship fail where two people are thrilled by giving to each other intensely the question was I I said one should screen out and exclude a person with a problem I don't mean that I mean that when someone has a very problematic background it pays to know that to understand them it doesn't mean you shouldn't marry them many people from desperately problematic backgrounds are very strong because of that right it may fit with yours it may fit with your skills and talents I do not mean if you would exclude everyone problematic background we be we we we have enough trouble now finding people okay to to marry it's a desperate situation of many people unable to find a partner if you're going to exclude people with what you call problematic backgrounds and personal problematic backgrounds we much worse situation I don't mean that but I mean that the background of the person is relevant speaking medically when I interview someone go through the history you examine their life course what have they experienced and how they responded to that it gives you a feel and a picture of the person so don't me exclude marrying the person but I think it gives you a deep insight into the who person is when you see what their life course has been and how they dealt with that adversity has it left them broken has it left them stronger in which areas are they weak in which areas have they become strong just a simple insight into who the person is as a person I think that's important okay thank you very much [Applause]