Conversation - Chief Rabbi Warren Goldstein

long you you're okay with good morning everyone here in the Eastern Standard Time and welcome to everyone who is watching from around the world thank you so much for being with us with this really wonderful and very special opportunity to have a conversation with the chief Rabbi of South Africa the one the only Rabbi Dr Warren Goldstein so accomplished scholar tomam a community leader a worldwide leader Rabbi Goldstein thank you so much for joining us this morning thank you Rabbi Goldberg it's so wonderful to be with you I uh I'm an Avid Reader of your weekly Parish column which I really enjoy and uh so it's so nice to meet you and see you face to face and it's a real honor to be able to speak to you today thank you it's our honor I want to acknowledge and thank the Brody family who have sponsored our conversation in commemoration of the 18th year at site of Arnold bro who was from South Africa before they moved to America Elizabeth New Jersey and ultimately here in South Florida Rabbi Brody one of the rabbis on our team we thank them for that generosity and that sponsorship now I know those who are listening those who are watching obviously know you it's impossible to be part of the Jewish world and not know you and your creativity your Ingenuity your leadership but just very briefly um the first Chief Rabbi of South Africa actually born in South Africa youngest person ever to be appointed to that position at the young age of 32 you studied in Yeshiva G of Johannesburg also have di in have earned not only a college degree but a PhD in comparing Western and Jewish law uh on issues of ethics and morality and of course have published many many more Works beyond that so Goldstein I don't know how you have time to do it all and get it all done it's really extraordinary but before we get into our conversation I thought we should take a moment as cler the Jewish World lost two very very different types of leaders but really have so much more in common than that which divides them the Jewish World losser of David Feinstein and yesterday shabas ended here in America for us to find out we had lost Chief Rabbi Lord Jonathan do you have any uh Reflections any thoughts on on both of them on a relationship in Your Capacity as Chief Rabbi or in any private capacity yes I think um I'm I'm so glad that we starting there because uh really um you know for me the the the sense of the Jewish World We depend on on our Rabon on our leaders to give us Direction in Hashem tah and uh to lose um to lose great and to lose great Torah leaders is is something which is devastating and I think that that you know in South Africa as shabas came out we actually I heard about both together because it was already shabas in South Africa you know when um you know when the news of DAV Feinstein was you know came out um and um I think that uh idstein you know as as a PO and and one of the of Our Generation gives gives direction for gave direction for and and how to how to express the will of Hashem in our lives and without our po can we nothing and I was just actually just before I came on here I've been watching the the Lev the live stream of the levia and one thing that came out so powerfully which I experienced in a very small way I met him once and and asked a shot to him but uh I could just see the the the the empathy The Compassion the love and that's what everyone was talking about in in the was was his tremendous love and compassion for for people and and you know it's it's such a it's such a powerful thing the Torah when the gor as you know refers to the Torah Rah the merciful one it's in other words the the expression of Torah is Rahman it's compassion it's the will of Hashem Hashem is called Rahman the merciful one and so there's a a sense that expresses the will of Hashem but expresses the will of Hashem with love and compassion and David fing was was a poor that loved the door and loved people and had time and for for everybody uh um Chief Rabbi Lord Jonathan saxs was a personal friend of mine and I was so grateful to him for his his kindness to me as you know my my appointment as Chief Rabbi was announced just about 7 17 years ago and he was the very first person to call and to and to offer meuk on my appointment and and then to offer me advice and mentorship as I was starting so young and trying to find my feet and he was there for me and that was the amazing thing that he was a person of tremendous eloquence and could show the depth and the greatness of Torah in the most powerful magnificent inspiring way and he was a person who loved people and to me that also is perhaps is what links these the these two giants that CL of L one was was a great Po and a tremendous Po in but was filled with love and compassion and RAB Lord Jonathan sax was a tremendous explainer and teacher and Ambassador for total Judaism H but also with this tremendous love and compassion and empathy and I think that is so important is that you know greatness of the intellect is is only one step of the way from a Torah hash the greatness of intellect has to be matched by greatness of medicine compassion and kindness and and that's when the Torah when a person moves from the cerebral integration of Torah into an integration of personality that's that is something which is which is absolutely all inspiring and so it's it's it's an honor to be able to have a few minutes just to pay tribute uh to both of them although indeed we we we could spend the entire time set aside for today on each one and we would have hardly have scratched the surface so but but thank you for that opportunity absolutely and and it was so well said I don't know I have to to add first of all you're in a position to reflect you are the co-author with Rabbi barel wine the Legacy teachings of for life from the great Lithuanian rabbis and I happen to have loved that book uh it's just one of your works but I love that book very much it was personally inspiring to me as a rabbi and to learn from them and and I think one of the things that emerges from there and as you just said a common theme for both R David find and Lord Jonathan Sachs is as brilliant and as genius as they were and some of that they were gifted from birth they had the the blessing of genetics that enabled them to have that was not only how hard they worked in order to actualize that potential gift intellectually but as you as you describe so eloquently U maybe their genius was surpassed by their humility and by their love and by their kindness and I too having very limited interaction with r David Feinstein zel but saw his his humility his modesty even though he was thought of as the of America he didn't dress like one of the gum he had a simple gar a regular hat and a regular suit jacket and as was said also in the HP him he preferred to be in the back of the room with the Yeshiva Boys than sitting in the front of the room with the other rabbis and that's extraordinary to have that genius and that accomplishment and to to be so admired and and have such awe of you from the masses and yet maintain and preserve that humility is extraordinary and and I didn't nearly have the relationship you had with her by saxs but we were privileged to have our community several times and I had a a small correspondence with him but what I'll never forget aside from you know I like many of our congregants printing out his weekly D Torah and drawing inspiration just how much they resonate for us um several years ago I went through a somewhat of a hard time someone publicly we we'll get to this maybe the position when people are in public positions had attacked with a total lie attacked me attacked our Shu with a false accusation and out of nowhere I picked up my phone and it was read by saaks Lord saaks and he called just to offer a good word and to offer strength and to describe that he too had been the target of unfair accusations and just to to give strength and to give companionship to be able to get through it and that meant more than my whole Library full of his books what they've done for me was when you see someone when the camera's off when the spotlights off when it's behind the scenes who they are that even far surpasses the genius that the public gets to to receive of them and I think that's a a very very beautiful description and appropriate description so um again as you said we could talk about them for hours but I want to move over this shabas was was the chabas project which is your brainchild your your enormous contribution not only to South African jewelry but to a clro to the world so tell us a little bit about how the chabas project came to be what was the inspiration the motivation did you really believe that it could happen or have the success that it seems to have in South Africa and and around the world and this is a obviously peculiar year for the shabas project because of Corona virus what were some of the ways that you saw the beauty of the shabas project succeed despite the challenge ing times yes so it started in South Africa in 2013 and there was no intention at the time to to to launch a global project in fact the time even we announced it in South Africa I remember announcing it in June at oura convention which brings together s of thinkers and speakers from all over the world and thousands of people come and almost just before that we decided to do this and announced it didn't even have the branding and the logo or anything we just knew what we wanted to call it and we wanted to call every to keep on chabas and we weren't sure how we were going to do it but just jumped in in that June and and that year it was Pas and it was in October so we just had a few months and a lot of people even said you know it's not going to succeed even in South Africa and I remember having the discussion with my wife and we said look what does succeed mean you know if if 10 Jews will keep shabas otherwise wouldn't have that that's enough we' got all the effort um and and and we were like very satisfied and happy with to set that as the objective and um and then you it was an amazing thing the South African Jewish Community embraced it with such warmth and um 80% plus of the community embraced it we even did surveys afterwards and people kept chabas and there was such an outpouring of love and excitement enthusiasm that I started getting emails from all over the world people wanting to participate so in 2014 we opened up and said okay let's do a shabas project anyone who wants to participate let me know and then emails just came in we put out a video and emails just poured in from every corner of the globe there's been this natural outpouring of course it it you know it takes effort but what what has what has astounded me is the the natural people's movement that has sprung up around the shabas project and I think it it is built on a on a natural thirst for chabas because chabas is a Mitzvah which is so compelling for for for today's Times the the the the sense that people need to to rebuild and to nurture their families and and the beauty that it brings and the sense of stability and inspiration and connection and then also people thirsting for Jewish Unity A desperate need for Jewish Unity the sense of we so fragmented and we we we we only seem to come together when there's when there's a crisis where there's something terrible happening and and the idea of choosing Jewish Unity not because it's forced on us by our enemies or some sort of external crisis but because we respect one another as Jews and move beyond the labels and to embrace the concept of clel as as an identity which defines our very essence I think that's also deep down people want that so badly and the other element of it is that and it's something that I've believed in over these years and that is it's a people's movement the shabas project is not an organization which is top down with layers of bureaucracy and lots of regional directors and this one and that one it's a people's movement so we have like 6,000 volunteers spread across 1600 cities in more than a 100 countries and they all work for towards the shabas project and they have a sense of ownership we have we have the parameter we have the values of what it stands for and you know we very proud of that it's a total immersive shabus experience but we don't Jud people people come in they take part of it what they want we clear about you know that that that we believe with passion and pride that shabas in its fullness is the real gift and the more diluted it is the L gift there is but people you know go on their own journey and I think it's been those three elements the beauty of shabas the thirst for Jewish unity and this dimension of a people's movement where everyone becomes leaders and it's not top down but it's it's it's really Grassroots and I think it's the combination of those elements that is that has given birth to this to this movement it it is a movement and it's it's caught on and and you're deserves so much credit even as much as you described as Grassroots it needed a leader to to challenge the people with it and the people have clearly responded how has it been different than Corona what what limitations the inability to experience it in the in an ordinary fashion how how has it happened this year instead I think it been very interesting in some ways uh we've had the best shoers project we've had in many years and I'll tell you why very interestingly from from from uh we what we did lose we lost the big events the inperson events of calabas havdalah concerts we lost that uh because of the situation uh what we gained was one was was a lot of virtual events which linked people across countries so there was a 24-hour calab where people were running across all the different time zones so there was a there was an international con connection that's always been there latent beneath the surface but then for example instead of having a calab in Bonar the whole of South America came together in one big calab and and there was one from Arizona that went across North America and then there was one you know starting from Hong Kong and New Zealand running across all of the different time zones so there was that element but for me the most profound and beautiful dimension of what Corona forced on the project was in a certain sense a return to its its true Roots which is ultimately about the personal experience of keeping chabas and and chabas actually happens at home you see all of these big Unity events are important they're about Jewish Unity they're about the inspiration But ultimately chabas doesn't happen at AAL chabas happens in our homes and and the Jewish Home at the heart of the Jewish Home is chabas and the Jewish home is at the heart of chabas so it it we created a lot of materials and and guided people on we made the campaign theme bring it home uh real sense of saying let's keep a full shabas at home and have a completely immersive experience with families and and that's part of what we seeing now going forward is is a bit of a journey to help people to deepen and and extend their shabas experience and their growth in their shabas learning uh going forward so that it's not just this one-off experience although the beauty of the oneoff experience is that people can taste it for themselves see it and I would also say this even for people who are sh shabas in general during the year it's not a binary experience firstly there's depth in terms of learning which writes about in but it also it's it's about truly appreciating is the the gift of shabas and understanding that chabas is a declaration of the fact that Hashem is the creator of this world and and it's going back to the the roots of the Holiness and the sanctity of shabas which even people who generally keep shabas during the year it it's an opportunity to refresh and to renew that so I love that perspective basically it's it's the attitude that within every crisis is an opportunity and even though there have been challenges to the shabas project this year it's forced the project to adapt in ways which maybe are even new or better or parts of it you might keep to not only have the public but to continue to promote the in the- home shabas experience so every crisis or challenge presents an opportunity and it sounds like you and and the shabas project have Embrace that I want to ask a question about the shabas project that's always um I've been curious about not in a challenge way but you know being on the other side here in America from the South Africa and and I want to ask the question by way of talking about your background if it's okay um and your background as a microcosm maybe for the South African jewy and what's happening in South Africa I think there's 70,000 Jews approximately in South Africa it's it's it's now about close to around 60,000 or so 60,000 so you know my experience and our bueron synagogue was founded by a group of South African Jews who were not personally observant but who identified with traditional approach to Judaism with Orthodox Judaism that seems to be in South Africa the model is that even if you're not personally observant but what you're not observant from is a Hala Orthodox perspective on on Torah and and not another denomination um or or perspective so um that's an advantage so to say that you have an advantage of South African jury that even those who are not yet ready to embrace observance or observe all of chabas their familiarity with or or that which they're not doing is the full version of it and not some alternative which offers options um which you know is a challenge that we have here um in America so I'm curious in terms of your own background your own upbringing when did you get inspiration when did you know you'd become a rabbi let alone a chief Rabbi um are you an example of that of that sort of Paradigm of South African jewelry and emerge to to be a leader of it and and then we'll get to my question of how that relates therefore to the application of the shabas project the difference maybe between Africa and here in America yes because that that I want to get to that question about the difference between South Africa and America and maybe with your permission can I start there and then get to the to the personal it because I I think my experience has been and now you know the shabas project has been an international phenomenon since 2014 so we've had a number of years of experience and what what my my experience has been this that the the biggest challenge facing um I would say English-speaking Western jury is uh is and and what actually the truth is it applies right across the globe and I found the same thing the issue is this do people view Judaism as something relevant compelling um deep intelligent meaningful sophisticated uh adding depth to their lives that to me is the simple question if the answer to that question is yes then then my experience has been um and and obviously I'm I'm saying this you know far away in the southern tip of Africa so you know I'll I'll I I will certainly defer uh to to you know to the on the ground experiences that you and others have had but my experience has been that if if you provide a perspective and a picture of Judaism which is relevant compelling sophisticated meaningful all of that people want it they don't they don't mind the labels they're not interested in the labels in fact that I'm seeing a trend in the world which in a certain sense is post- denominational because it's it's really saying H give me something tell me what it is what brand it is just tell me is I want to know if it's relevant and compelling and will add meaning and Beauty to my life I'm in if it won't well I'm I'm switching off not because I've rejected it for ideological reasons but because I've I've got too much to do in my life I'm not I'm not getting engaged with anything that doesn't feel relevant and compelling and and and so what we found paradoxically in chabas is this it is the the total immersive experience of shabas with all of theas that actually is the most compelling offering from from from the perspective of people's lives because if you if it's not the total immersive experience then what are you offering people a dinner okay they can get a dinner anywhere why should they come to your dinner if they can get a dinner somewhere else so you know you offering them a nice ritual here or there but people can find their own rituals but but but shabas as an experience Shabbat is an experience which is a totally immersive experience where you switch off cell phones put away car keys uh put away the screens is is radical it's a radical disruption of of modern life but that's actually what makes it interesting and question just interrupt you for a moment I guess my question and this is the challenge here on our side is can you create the experience of the disruption which is not all or nothing can the disruption just be for Friday night even if one is not prepared to embrace it for the 24 25 hours of all shabas and and the reason I asked that question in the background of the backdrop and again I defer to you your expertise and your personal experience is my impression of many South Africans um is that they'll say my parents were Sher Shabbat my grandparents were Sher Shabbat we used to visit them and I would keep Shabbat then so now when the chief Rabbi has challenged me to do that for 24 hours hours once a year in my life I'm prepared to do it whereas here we sell somebody to imagine doing that for one hour they have no familiarity no experience and of course there are many who do remember their grandparents kept kosher in the home but the notion of a fully Embrace of or immersive shabas experience is so foreign and so bizarre and so out of the realm of their experience they don't relate to it and if we did it in bite-sized chunks said just Friday night immerse yourself in Friday night don't Tech touch technology till you wake up then we might be more successful rather than a tasta maruba if we try to take bite off too much maybe we won't succeed but you what what I think is a crucial uh um paradigm shift that has to take place is I don't believe that we when I say we it means Educators or uh people coming we should not be making decisions for other people meaning the and this is the the the key it's all in the vocabulary the vocabulary is and and the brand and the atmosphere of the shabas project is this is amazing it's fun uh you know the the lot of the things that we do are quite cheeky and and fun and a little bit irreverent and and and we and then we saying look here here is here here it is this is what a 25-hour experience looks like um and then you make we say you know we say to everyone make your decision we don't want to make it for you by saying you know what don't worry about that part of it just worry about this we just put it out there people naturally it's it's a free world so people will naturally take this piece or that piece and we've had stories of people who just decided to come to the calc not even start with shabas never there got a calab and then that journey of the calab was so inspirational that they then decided to to try out chabas and and then a person who takes a piece of it and then it links so what what the way that that that our approach is non-judgmental open source uh empowerment here's the knowledge here's the information here's why we think it's so wonderful make your decisions you know we we not what what I feel is an important thing is we as a shabas project we don't come to persuade people to keep shabas persuasion sets up a power Dynamic I'm persuading you so then we're in a power struggle will I persuade you won't I persuade you what what it really is saying is shabas belongs to every Jew like why you know it it belongs it and and this is also a crucial thing it's not that chabas belongs to religious Jews and that out of the goodness of our heart we're going to share it with other Jews no shabas belongs to every Jew doesn't matter who you are where you come from it's yours and and and here it is and it's the most amazing thing and you know so funnily enough in the early stages of the project you know who actually guided me on this was Professor Dan arieli um you know he's he's he's one of the top behavioral psychologists in the world Professor Duke University um he's a a secular Israeli self-described who went to who moved to America America um he's he's a very close friend of mine and he's been advising me on the shabas project and other things right from the very beginning and you know what he said to me at the very beginning as we were even just formulating it he said don't dilute this that the the power is in the totality of this thing give people Empower people let them taste a full an experience of it which is not diluted and and put that on the table and and and you know I just actually did a webinar with him just last week it was a webinar in Hebrew for an Israeli audience and the Israelis because obviously he's Israeli and and they were they were loving it and and he was actually we were going through all of the incredible psychological benefits of chabas which emerge from the immersive experience but again it's about empowerment it's about knowledge it's about saying here it is it belongs to all of us it's yours it's a gift you want to take it take it you know enjoy it it's it's open it's there it's not like I'm going to package it for you and I'm going to persuade you take this don't take that I'm saying here it is take it enjoy it it belongs to all of us let's celebrate it and and I think this is a crucial part of the ethos of the shabas project we see all Jews as equals that's the vision that I tried to put into it we are all equals in this and shabas belongs to each and every single one of us equally and and and it's not like one group of Jews coming to persuade another group of Jews it's rather saying we have this incredible Heritage this incredible MIT that Hashem gave us here it is let's celebrate it and and just enjoy it it's it's the most incredible gift in the world don't you want something of it let's I'm hearing you say is that is that we don't need to be apologetic or water it down and that's part of its success and I think that's extraordinary that's part of of why people admire it and admire you is it's put out there as a challenge and it takes courage to do that to not be apologetic or defensive about saying this is what chabas in its most authentic form looks like and come join us Embrace be part of whatever element or ever extent you want to that we'd love to have you as part of that have I lost you did you lose me m I think we have lost Rabbi Goldstein trying to get him back thank you for your patience I don't know if the challenge is on my side or his side with the internet see waiting for him to come back up here he is okay all right sorry Rabbi gold welcome back I don't know if that's on my side or your side was my side the the the Wi-Fi went down for a second but it's back up so I'm I'm sorry about that Interruption no don't apologize the truth is here in South Florida we are in the middle of a tropical storm borderline hurricane so I thought maybe it was on my side but it's nothing can stop us from having this conversation which is really um very refreshing because because as I was saying I don't know where we we lost each other I think part of your success and why I admire you and this project is how Unapologetic it is how how non-defense of it is that this is chabas in its most authentic form and everyone's invited to be part of it to whatever degree that you want to I guess the challenge we have on our side and I know that you know we have the the family who sponsored our conversation bro Rabbi bro our Outreach Rabbi very few Orthodox schs at least in America have a dedicated Outreach Rabbi and when we talk about and he leads our our efforts um when we talk about implementing the shabas project here that's some of our debate is if we challenge people with too much will they take it on if somebody reads that you have to do it or that the challenge is a 24hour challenge will they not even do it for an hour whereas if we broke it up incrementally in segments and said try Friday night would they be more likely to embrace it so I I hear definitely hear your your perspective and your argument it's very compelling but and also you know what I think and um I know this is also what's exciting about what Partners in Torah is doing and that is um you know the the ultimately um the shabas project is a celebration of chabas all around the world and a celebration of Jewish Unity uh what we looking now is to is to deepen um shabas Journeys meaning that people need to go on a journey of understanding and appreciating and and that journey is something that people need to take time over to um to really internalize and to appreciate and to and to and and that happens with Torah learning that's why I'm very excited um you know about what Partners in Tor is doing in honor of the chabas project they're launching a special three-part series for people to find Kusa and to join them in learning about chabas for the next three weeks you know and you can go on to the the partners in Torah website and find their the the Shabbat program that's on there which they're launching this week in you know to uh following the the shabas project and um I think that's something which is which is so special because ultimately when when people learn and they go on their own personal Journey there's something that comes from those personal Journeys and and it's something we want to look at uh broadening and deepening the experience throughout the year that people can go on those Journeys so when shabas project comes around they will be in um you know in in a different place um and I think that that's something which is uh you know which can be really special that's amazing and people can look at the bottom we're scrolling Partners in torah.org Shabbat is where you can find it and uh I would certainly encourage everybody as the chief rabbi did to sign up so let's move back to the question of of your background the state of South African jewry and some of the differences between what you experience and what we do um one of my dear friends here in our community who was who was one of the rabbis is still a rabbi here in South Africa in sou in South Florida was one of the rabbis at ouru RAB Barak barim so I'll never forget that when I was with him once when we were working together on something and we met a Jew not part of our Sho and the Jew in casual conversation and passing had mentioned that they were intermarried they're married to a gentile to a non-jew and right after the conversation I was ready to move on because meeting such an individual tragically in America is a daily activity and Rabbi bar was visibly shaken and I asked him what's the matter and he said you know I've never met somebody who's actually married out of our faith I've never met somebody who's intermarried he was shaken to his core and part of why I so admire him is his his level of yay and his connection to heaven and How Deeply Disturbed he was at the sense that somebody um might have even taken that that bold act so he told me in South Africa he had never met in inter marriage certainly there are levels of assimilation and there are people who have yet to become observant or to return to a state of observance but not that degree of assimilation that's one of the differences so maybe you could describe those differences again go back to your upbringing if you if you don't mind sharing personally your story is that part of the South African story and did you see yourself becoming a rabbi and ultimately the chief Rabbi at that young age so I think firstly uh Rabbi bar in I don't know if he mentioned so I know him very well and he's he's such a a wonderful person and and a dear friend from from many years ago um I think you know each Jewish Community has got its own its own uh culture and energy and um I also think that that uh you know South African jury also has its own issues in terms of intermarriage I don't you know I think that it's something that we are seeing a rise and and it's something which which I'm concerned about that you know needs it's not at the levels of of North America and United States of America in particular um but you know it's something that one needs to one needs to look at and and find a way of you know holding holding the Jewish people together um and I think that is important to me you know what what what what is very um beautiful about the South African Jewish ethos and and it's something you know which I wrote about a little bit in that book with with with with Rabbi wine um you know the Legacy that you referred to at the beginning and thank you for your kind words about it because that book is very meaningful to me you know it reflects a lot of what I learned from who was a gift and he came to set up yes in Johannesburg and um and he and he taught us you know the importance of of M of of good character and dar and dealing with people with kindness and gentleness and a Yiddish Kat which is which is unifying and embracing and um and and and you know South African Jury has had a culture of of of of unity and has had a culture also of of Dar and midis which um which over the years you know they say the ponich they tell the story that when he um he came to South Africa in the 1950s when he was raising money for picha so he being being a and you know found a lot of the the Fisher there in South Africa was an affility and he and he said there time that he saw Ki writes about an introduction to you to to my book RAB he says there that um he saw the pich saw the in South African Jewish Community the M of salanta and he said you know that would always be he felt that that yish K would come back because of that and I think that that what what's important I don't have I don't I don't have sort of easy solutions for how it can be done but I I I do think that there is a way of you know we need to find ways of engaging with one another which are filled with that with with with the Der and the mid that's a very important and you actually said in the that famous that it says how does one from the that the name of Hashem of Heaven should be beloved through you and theor says how do you how do you get people to love Hashem it's not about what you say it's about who you are it says that you talk nicely to people but and with Integrity that is going to cause people to love Hashem so so the starting point in terms of of of that is integrity and kindness and gentleness that that that is that is part of it um but South African Jury has been on a remarkable journey of a lot of people returning to to Torah and to Mitzvah um over the decades and and a transform community that you know there was there was a time um in the in the early in the late 1970s early 1980s where there was hardly shabas people in the whole in the whole of Johannesburg you know and and today that there whole communities of it and and these entire communities of people who who who became shabas even though they weren't born into it and um there's and Cape Town you know not to the same extent but also is is a driving mckam Torah Jurg with colemon Shivers and uh you know lots of lots of growth in Torah but there's a sense of one like for example my work as Chief Rabbi is is very much dealing with all the different parts of the community from from those you know who are most intensely involved in Torah and Mitzvah and learning and everything to those who who R in the extremes and uh you know and and and and perhaps are even unaffiliated but uh it's it's about holding that sense of kahila that we're one kahila together we're one community and we may have different levels of observance but we are We Are One community and um and and it's you know it's it's and it's also part of it uh you know part of what I've tried to do also is to ensure that the Torah which I deal with is is is engaging with issues in society because I believe Torah has a broad mission for society so for example when we had a um when we uh when we had a a a a very serious violent crime problem I got involved with a number of of people to establish this organization cap Community Act of protection you know which which now protects about 250,000 people in the city of of Johannesburg which has brought down contact crime between 80 and 90% um and you know I I was involved with the minist of Education in in drafting a bill of responsibilities which is taking the Bill of Rights and turning each right into responsibility which is part of the curriculum I believe that Torah has has a message for society as a whole you you know shabas and and learning Torah and all of these things are are vitally important for cl Isel um but but but Hashem he he looked into the Torah created the world the the the world everything in it everything is in the Torah and so that is so for example when we had a very um corrupt president president Jacob Zuma and he was involved in in in attempts to steal uh the entire Treasury and all of the contracts and the various departments within government there was there was a civil resistance movement to him there were Marches On Parliament and marches on the Pres and I joined those marches and and and wrote articles calling for his resignation and in fact even changed the wording of the prayer for the president in in our synagogues where instead of saying uh to pray for the president I said you know we ask God to to bless us with a president who's morally worthy of this great nation so I I I got involved in in in in some of look and and um the article that you wrote I think was was was very on point and this last week the the the situation we were dealing with at the time was a very extreme situation of uh of of you know of of of blatant and rampant Corruptions was very specific to that but the point that I'm making is is that yish Kat and Torah has a very broad was the work that I did in my PhD is is to look at at you know the issue of human rights from a Torah perspective to say Torah is has to have and and it goes back to what I said to you before that if if people see that Torah is relevant sophisticated deep powerful compelling for every aspect of life you know it's what raim H once said he said that um he doesn't like Torah to be described as a religion because religion implies something very narrow whereas Torah is an entire way of life it's an entire uman a whole world philosophy of of of of society and The Human Condition and and every aspect you know fits into that and I feel that you know that's a a kind of a broad approach uh enables people to see the greatness of Torah and then uh it opens hearts and Minds to be able to look at the specifics because it's coming from that perspective Chief Raba you're a real kidm and in this way I think uh very much nobody can fill the shoes of of Rabbi Lord saak that's all we're we're reflecting on him this morning upon the terrible news this weekend but very much in the same style that you are not only the chief Rabbi for the Jews but the chief Rabbi Beyond which is how he saw his role as well and and it's a reminder to all of us that Torah and Judaism were never meant just for the Jews we have a message and a light for the entire world and and in our view we're not trying to impose it on the others but we also shouldn't Retreat or hide it from the world because the world now desperately needs it um you can speak to how it's needed there and I can speak to how it's needed here maybe more than ever in terms of moral corruption and and in terms of vacuum of leadership and in terms of the questions of the day we should not be retreating and we should not be hiding Torah we should be promoting and sharing we should be out there communicating and advocating and allow our Torah to illuminate that darkness and to share its Timeless wisdom in the way that you are which is really really extraordinary as a public personality um there's so little there's nothing anyone could criticize about you or your projects but when you put yourself out there in your a public personality by definition it's going to attract criticism how do you handle that as a chief Rabbi as a chief Rabbi that began at the young age of 32 years old at 32 years old when you were appointed Chief Rabbi and people might have been critical then and you're not the first in in time we know the story that we read on Sat or night of being appointed at a young age um how do you deal with criticism personally how do you make sure that it doesn't uh hold you back or it doesn't eat away at you how do you deal with criticism it's a it's it's a great question um you know I think it's it's and I think it's an important point for for all of us mean because although people in public life as you've experienced well as you referred to I wasn't aware of it but as you referred to your experiences and and I've had you know many times over the last 17 years um criticism and um all kinds of things even even at the time you know with this thing of of challenging the president publicly there were a lot of people in the community who criticized that approach and criticized the approach of getting involved with crime fighting and and all different um you know different kinds of things along the way the the most I think the most important thing is is to realize that ultimately we are here on behalf of Hashem and and and and is that internal sense of the the the purpose of leadership in general and of leadership and and as as a human being in a Jew ultimately we are here to do good in the world and to do Mitzvah and and the measure of that is in the eyes of Hashem of course we have to go out of our way in order to do things in a way that that people can see transparency and that they can see accountability um you know to to be to be clean and and um and uh transparent in the eyes of every person but ultimately the final measure is in in in in the eyes of Hashem and that that to me is is sort of the place that I go to I'm criticized also um it's part of realizing that leadership and and the truth is doing any good in the world by definition comes with criticism uh even when it's when it's not deserved um you know and and and there's so many examples with Mosher rabenu um you know like that you know that famous mid where when he left late they criticized him they said he sleeping too late and he's not working hard enough and he've left his tent early then they said he's having problems at home so that's why he's wife threw him out the tent early so whatever he did he was he was getting criticized and then the the final thing is this sometimes it's important to to listen to that criticism because there can be something in it sometimes it's it it may even you know be nasty and not not constructive um and and but and very often it can be sometimes there's something in it to can to listen sometimes it's pure it's pure nastiness and then actually one's better off not listening to it at all because it's got nothing constructive but sometimes um there is constructive criticism and I think what the key is is to find um objective advisors who will tell you the truth because it's so easy to surround oneself people don't want to tell don't want to tell you you know and so what I've tried to do over the years is to find really smart people to be around me people who who feel comfortable to tell me when I am making mistakes because when it's coming from you know people who are just seeking to destroy you can't hear that because it's there's there's nothing there's no bonafides in their motives but when when good people are then there's something and and we can all make mistakes you know and I think part of leadership is the humility to know that we can make mistakes and we need to but have people around us and and that's the definition of of of a um acquire for yourself a friend in P ra there says a friend to do Mitzvah with a friend to learn Torah with and a friend to to hear the criticism and to get advice that you we we we we are too close to ourselves so we need to find U you know the people who can uh guide us and and and direct us and keep us keep us on the you know straight and narrow um that's a great perspective we are um we're winding down on time I just want to ask uh if it's okay two more questions one is um re Goldson it seems like everything that you've touched turns to Gold your accomplished author accomplished speaker uh you have advanced secular degrees a grand Advanced smas um these projects you've begun have had extraordinary success is there something that you tried which was a failure and I ask not not um God forbid to embarrass I ask because it will inspire us sometimes we meet or we're exposed to somebody who it seems that everything they've done everything they touched has succeeded and if we learn that I once to had this opportunity to have this conversation with with Rabbi saaks and who was very quick he burst out in laughter and told me about several failures including his failure to publish until he turned 40 years old and then wrote a book a year after that um is there a failure of yours that you think about that you learn from that we would be inspired by you know I I I would I would say this uh the the they plenty uh some of which are not good to mention on u in an interview but I I'll say um I I will I will say this that each one of these things uh comes with uh failure and setback every step of the way in other words like I'm saying what whatever it is that there's there's so much that is going on that is within it that being and not succeeding and then pushing this and trying that and um and you know just just I think that that part of of of daytoday life is about uh just pushing on it's it's the sense of just keep keep moving and and keep trying and the times you know um I'm I'm like one of the things that you mentioned I'm hoping next year to start a a p learning project uh but but but people and but people who know me um know that I've actually been working on this project for years and a few years ago I launched it and um and it didn't succeed but I didn't you know I launched it in a certain way and didn't try this and didn't try that and then I then then I went with my team and we re reconstituted the whole thing and we've been through so many variations of it and please God next year we're hoping to you know to launch um I'm hoping will be you know a really beautiful um you know learning project around pavos because I think pavos is it's the heart and soul of of of Torah values and it's accessible to all and it's you know I think every Jew needs to learn it and every Jew can learn it um so I'm I'm hoping you know you know as a as something uh to you know to to sort of accompany the shabas project in the years ahead will be a kind of P pus but I've been up and down with that for years and and trying this and trying that experimenting with this experimenting with that I think now we got a formula which I hope it works we'll launch it next we will see but it's been a lot of experimentation failure experimentation failure it hasn't succeeded yet but I believe in pure covers so I believe there is a way to to to get it right where it can become a mass-based learning project but at the same time be true to the depth of of the of the wisdom of kazal so I think each and and I found all of these things it's everything is is hard work and um you know lent sort of coming up to obstacles and stumbling and fixing and stumbling and fixing even the things which which which appear to be successful are are the result of multiple many failures all the way through in order to get to that in order to get to that point well I can't wait to to see it and to jump on board with it and I have no doubt it will be a success if you're behind it last question because we can't leave this conversation without talking about our beloved Israel medat Israel Israel the people of Israel um your PhD is on human rights youve positioned yourself as a spokesperson for human rights um what's it like in South Africa defending Israel are there people who will attack you claiming Israel viol Ates human rights and and hold you out because you've been a spokesperson for human rights the word apartheid is is used to describe Israel by our enemies and and you know what real apartheid is um obviously um growing up in in South Africa um tell us about what's happening right now in terms of your position as Chief Rabbi defending and being the spokesperson for for Israel in South Africa um yes it's been it's been a really bumpy Journey um because uh there is a tremendous amount of hostility from the South African government and thec the ruling party uh towards Israel a natural Affinity um you know away from you know from Israel and then there's the aparate accusation so so the first thing that I've done over the years is is to categorically uh reject the accusation that Israel is guilty of apartate um and I've done I've written many articles on that if people are interested you can they can get it on my website chief r.c. today set the the arguments why it's not a because one has to say what was a what is Israel and explain it and you know the the the the arguments are um you know I believe compelling and I believe it's the Jewish people we have to reject that accusation because it is um it is a uh it is a a defamation of the Jewish State and it's an insult to the victims of the real apartate if everything is aart nothing is aate so it's something which I have fought for many years in the context of South Africa and I've come to blows with many people in the media not not physical blows but uh media blows with cabinet ministers with senior ANC officials with with judges of the Constitutional court because recently I hosted a um I participated in a webinar with the Chief Justice of South Africa chief justice mang um that you know cath editor Jerusalem hosting and moderating a discussion between us and and the Chief Justice M came out in support of Israel and there was a tremendous you know backlash in South Africa and I traded blows some of the retired constitutional Court judges and and and the the the line of attack and this is why it is so vicious and the line of attack is it's not that I disagree with you they don't say that they say for you to defend Israel makes you a fascist racist uh and and they deny the the very legitimacy of it and that's what I've been fighting for to say listen you may have a different perspective on the Israeli Palestinian conflict I I disagree with it passionately but I respect your right to disagree with with me on it but um but but you have to grant me the right to to to be able to articulate a defense of Israel without being cast as a racist and and I think that that to me is so important we have to fight for the Justice of the cause of the state of Israel not just because of ethnic solidarity but because it's the right thing and and Israel is is this incredible Beacon of democracy and uh freedom in the Middle East and it is you know properly told and you it would be the subject of a whole long of its own conversation but a lot of the work that I've been involved in over the years has been in order to put out that case and and again it's it's a certain sense one can't be apologetic about this one has to go into that Arena fearless and say this is the truth because we standing up for K it's about it's about defending the sanctity of hashem's name because if people defame the Jewish State as guilty of the worst human rights violations that is a that is a stain on on on our reputation as Jews so we and and if we are silent then we saying that accusation is true so we have to to to from the rooftops to defend the state of Israel and I think that is so important um in South Africa but also in the United States there are there are voices you know in in Congress um and who who who have uh in in recent years become more and more militant in their approach uh against Israel and it's so important to enter into that debate but to enter into the debate rationally intellectually with all of the arguments um and and and to keep the debate dignified but firm and and strong and not to give an inch we cannot give an inch if someone accuses Israel of something terrible we have to rise to the defense because otherwise it stays on the record and and and that is that bches the reputation of Cl Israel and that bches the reputation of in this world so we have to be there on the front lines but intellectual rational uh arguing the case and and unrelenting in our defense of Israel Chief Rabbi Dr Goldstein I can't thank you enough for for being with us today but much more significantly I can't thank you enough for fighting for the Jewish people fighting for Torah fighting for Israel and for being a kidish hasem what you've accomplished is extraordinary and we know there's so much more to come people can join Partners in torah.org Shabbat or they can find more of your writings Chief rabbi. co.za thank you for being with us today thank you for the gift of the Shabbat project thank you for the gift that is you and all that you are doing and we could talk for hours and hours but please God it's a conversation that be continued as we go forward thank you so much thank you Rabbi Goldberg it's been an honor to talk to you and I look forward to your paral articles each week so we'll see what you have in store next week thank you thank you special thank you to the Brody family for sponsoring in memory of the 18th year outsite of Arnold Brody Arnold was a very special man a humble and modest man but a leader in his family and Beyond so thank you for much for that and wishing everyone stay happy stay healthy stay holy have a wonderful day