Does the Torah Endorse the Accuracy of Human Logic? - Rabbi Dr. David Gottlieb

[Music] before I talk about the announced topic I want to share something with you which over the years becoming more and more important we have a problem of our own children at least exploring other options for life other than Torah observance and some cases leaving Torah observance entirely of one common dynamic in that process is that the child will study certain subjects and come to his parents with questions challenges reasons to reject you describe and the parents this holds of parents and educators far more so for educate educators because I see so many children and parents and educators have to deal with this they have to somehow respond in a helpful way to these kinds of challenges not I I think that's we're not very well equipped people are not really equipped to respond in an appropriate way so I just want to outline for you briefly I've written this up so I think what I think the right way to respond to this is I hope that you never have to use this but you may know other people who need to use it then you can share with them the child comes in and says and this is usually a boy to his father usually not that girls don't go off but they don't take this road of justifying it and making it sound as if it's genuine he comes up to his father and he starts asking him about subject about what the father has no clue no clue what the child is talking about and the child uses technical terms that he's picked up for that study you don't know how to eat the ego and superego you know everything that's real is just projected onto us into our super egos what do you say to that changing gene ratios is what natural selection does and that explains why there are human beings how do you answer the challenge for changing gene wheelers ratios or cosmic inflation explains why the universe the way it is we don't need God to explain that what do you say to cosmic inflation know the poor parent educators never heard of these terms and he's capped and he's embarrassed that he doesn't know about it and of course is convinced every case that I have dealt with the parents I are convinced that their child is super smart super smart so I have I have three a three-stage process for dealing with this the first thing you do we say the child thanks for sharing with me it's important for me to know where you want what you're thinking about what's important to you and then say you know you're using terms which I'm not familiar could you explain it to me what is the super-ego what are the changing gene ratios what are they I know nothing about them now I can tell you 50% at the time the child is already done explain the turns hasn't got a clue what they mean he read them out of blocks on placing and they sound real shut they sound very scientific and he knows his father doesn't have a clue so this is going to shoot him down respectfully say to him I'm not familiar with these terms please explain them to me take notes write down what he says if he's in the other 50% that can explain the terms then try to take his explanations of the terms that put them back into his argument okay they're changing gene ratios now I understand what that means tell me what you do with that how do you use that to raise a question about a rich guy so then you'll get another 50% the remainder who can't do that they've heard the terms is some dim idea but the taking but they can't put the argument together so at that point you say to them as I told you I'm interested in you I'm interested what you're thinking about maybe you can clarify things and get back to me so I can understand them well with respect with concern with projecting a sense of love easier really won't most times he won't even if he searches a clarification he won't understand the clarification but if he does and in the end he mounts he gives you definitions that are understandable and he mounts an argument that's that's reasonable at that point you say I'm so glad you shared this with me it's new to me I have to have some time to think about it I'll get back to you and then write to us he will not have discovered something that really turns this guy upside down because we especially we who came from the outside have been through all of them and are still going through all of them and aren't in so at that point but if you do it with respect if you do it with with concerns communication and never be defensive never called the child and I bicker it's never stated the child you know you're playing with fire and so on and so on don't warn him don't don't learn the dangers simply and I can guarantee you you follow that path he will at least be deprived of his intellectual cover up for his desires to go elsewhere I had a call a few years ago from a doctor who themselves about Sheila lives here and you join his son's going off why is he gonna love the doctor says something called girdles theorem I said that's interesting I wrote my PhD thesis on that theorem so I know it reasonably well send him to me she came to me and we spent an hour talking about it there's absolutely no connection it serves I say I got tomorrow's weather added a telephone book like it's just totally disconnected say after an hour I said to him you know you're interested in cheeseburgers you want to go snorkeling at Chavez be honest don't hide behind girls theorem because your father has know anything about it this definitely doesn't it so I'm just offering this as advice don't be upset don't be cowed don't be panicked simply treat him with with respect with kindness with love and try to build communication and I think that way the problem will almost always be dissipated now many people so they first get involved in Skype take on one fundamental principle God can't be understood that's right God can't be understood God is infinite whatever that means so the beyond they were beings grasping okay so I'm getting involved in a system whose foundation because linchpin is something that can't be understood that means human logic goes on holiday you're dealing with a creator whom you can't understand so then now it's mysticism I feel it in my heart indeed when you say things that don't make sense that's kind of a verification that it's really divine because if it makes sense it wouldn't be divided by something you can understand the whole branch of Christianity that's based on that the fact that they were they say is is nonsensical is their pride this isn't new Maimonides wrote about this in his parish on the mission and hooked on the parish failing the people who glory in saying things that are nonsensical and the more nonsensical it is the more they glory because it shows up from they are I can even believe in square circles you're just up to orangutan let me tell you I could believe in square circles how much further than boy the truth is that the Torah in many applications depends crucially on the accuracy of human logic human understanding it couldn't be accepted it couldn't be applied we couldn't live up to its own requirements for us if there weren't a very strong endorsement of the accuracy of human logic very strong endorsement doesn't mean if a liability of course we certainly do make mistakes but using logic we can describe the areas where the mistakes are likely to be found and we can try to protect ourselves from the mistakes and it's definitely appropriate to use logic and to apply its results let me give you a few examples so much promise up which I'm sure are familiar to which may not be we have a vast body of hollow it's assumed that we're going to learn this understand it and be able to apply of course it'll be different living levels not everyone very few people can be your client EST cover make a seam on collet or Akula every year but our people who do that there are seven people who can do that if human logic were generally untrustworthy something which because we're facing in an infinite reality we can't be trusted to draw our own conclusions you wouldn't be able to learn it understand it you wouldn't be able to be in yashi of steers contradictions from various places and you wouldn't be able to calculate cut consequences and applications so by giving us this vast body of Halawa codsworth was saying I trust you to be able to learn it and to understand secondly we have to apply halawet to the real world and sometimes you need sophisticated accurate knowledge of the real world can I eat onion kipper can't I even even kipper first you go to the doctor get the doctor's report and they take the doctors reports to the to the rabbi rabbi says well these these are the probable outcomes of not eating then the whole office says you should eat or shouldn't leave but that means the doctor has to have some accurate information otherwise he's just just playing with fantasy the rabbis is possibly in the shower on the basis of totally inaccurate picture of the physical consequences then it's it's just it's just check the child's place it's not it's not realistic the financial transactions I saw say for this they come rivers all the different types of contracts that you could write well I thought the interesting and I collect the interest all of this has to be mastered by people so it's both the Halawa and the and the and the application to the real world beyond that there is a responsibility I say there are bob says twice it was two moons Mila very enter both that everyone should try to discover Tommy Amit sauce she trying to discover Tommy her missiles now what are we talking about if we talk about their abundance that's fairly easy usually the opponent told us the reasons for which they made of it but he's not exactly to shoot himself to the bottom but there Isis and he says everybody should do this you should try to figure out time and it says of course you can make mistakes he's talked to other people like any other layman but it's illegal of course that means the repulsion of the body all of the creators said put on film or keep shots or give myself to save it lady or I'm gonna figure out what his reason 1 what good will it do if I figure out a reason that for me if that's me for me it's a reason but it isn't reason for him that's a joke no I've gotta be figuring out his reason how am I gonna figure out his reason if he's ain't Sophie there is a way there is a way by putting together two things girl who says and really and and seeing how they're related let's imagine because girl who says do a the rule is do a definitely let's imagine that somewhere else because it also says you have a responsibility for your health I'm sorry I'm gonna stop between the principle and the application the rule is do a and and someone else he says B is an important value something that I want you to work for promote advance and these are two separate things one is Melissa wasn't in inventory but looking at life you see that by doing a you promote B it's a matter of fact that doing may promote speeds then it is fair to say that one of the colors fulfills all reasons for telling us to do a is to promote me because he said both of them I'm not thinking this up I'm not figuring this out he said both of them so for example there was there is a prohibition against eating pigs for a long time for thousands of years eating pigs was known well I'm sorry but eating pace was dangerous to your health and it wasn't known to be so and then there came a time when it was known to be so but they didn't know how to make it safe to eat it's fair to say that one of the colors growth was reason for telling us not to eat pigs is to protect their health because he told us not to eat peas and he told us to keep healthy and as a matter of fact not any pigs served to help keep us healthy now I said several times there is a recording to verify it I said one of the reasons that's crucial we never know all of the reasons we never know the whole story it's one of the reasons and three and why that's important is that you don't want someone to say okay not be pigs but protected our health but now we know how to eat pigs and not have a danger to health so therefore there's no reason to keep the minister anymore no that's one of the reasons by the way you have this with with my master on the mention of starts off mine after all in Java he's passing the end of the civil he says today we don't have to do my my farm anymore because there's no more melis Thomas is no more salt from storm and that was the danger for which my mother from Magnaflow name was made and we don't have that danger anymore so the longer a responsibility to use byra from the guru says we do have to because it's a capitalistic reason and the pilot my father for whatever reason decided not to past in that fabulous decreasing so even though the Gemara says that the reason for my mouth or my name is mouse stories is that the only reason cuz I'll never say that something is the only reason for missile is so we can put together the reason if we understand how life works and if we know that if those girls who wants that value to be promoted so for example UD accession knowing your customer and knowing turtle that's one of the top values of each guy all the other then you have a tax my sir goes to the Atilla team but the purpose of my sister Levine and drama right sis mr. Tarrou is that the theme should be free to study totally they teach story to the people so it doesn't say that it passes my sir but they're honest says is since learning tower is studying it and teaching it to the people is a very important value and since giving my sister the Laveen gives them all of this free time to do that then that's one of the reasons for my sister Lily now there's no end to this everyone can use is understanding of course makes mistakes can be made you have to change it later but everyone is encouraged users understanding to be able to figure out reasons for instance and by the way any secular knowledge that a person has can be put to to use in this effort I'd struggled for many years with the question why the farmers pay the taxes that support national industries why did the farmers pay attention shoe makers don't pay attention people will catch fish don't pay attention why is it only the farmers I spoke about this to a professor of sociology from one person and you said you're making a big mistake you forget that farm products are the basis of the of the food of the of the society if the farm has raised their prices everybody is going to pay higher prices so the tax is automatically going to be distributed throughout the population stuff let them sell seed you know a little economics you can understand what the terror is doing much better I would be hunting for reasons why somehow the farm is just special that they should be slated laden with this tax it's a mistake they aren't the facts translates out to the rest of the people also so this effort obviously if a Kurdish girl who wants us to seek out the reasons for them for the Mitzvahs he's trusting our logic he's not telling us to go and explore something to get false ideas walk and then cervicals broth with false ideas about what we're doing and encouraging that must be that he feels that our logics basically sound then of course burro who tells us things so to speak about himself certain qualities that he has so to speak are part of the tradition and some of them if you think about them are tricky in order to get an accurate understanding of these descriptions that he gave us we have to think carefully about them in logical terms and obviously because well who gave us the descriptions he expressed we'll be able to understand them and logic is the way to do it for example cut his birth was called Yakko we say he's all-powerful or he can do anything that's ABC's no limits of others grow up who can do the three straight and said I need all different all powerful 'he's one thing can do anything is another thing I don't love it's what I can do is another thing but since they associated in the cat and people's minds I just used all three well let's try some examples and see how this works so of course Bravo could do anything you take because grow food can blank fill the blank any way you like it's got to be true how about this because girl food can learn something new let's go fool can learn something new house enter your room aren't you gotta say yes what about if it's broke who can improve how's that sound now here's one that maybe is a little tricky though our sources are unanimous on it how about a coracle can commit suicide well let's see because we're all gonna learn something new that would mean that he didn't already know everything do we really want to say that cuz rose was lacking knowledge because well we can't improve that would meaning that he isn't already perfect do we want to say that because well we'll commit suicide that would mean that his existence is only accidental contingent he could exist or not exist do we really want to say them there I'm bummed I'm Kyle everyone who talks about it says her first growth was Maura how it seems his receives is impossible to fail then that means killing himself is not in the offing so do we really want to say that Hershberger who is Col your hope that he can do everything here examples of things which it seems we don't want to say that he can do why don't we want to say that because I'm reading your minds the uncomfortable expressions on your faces express the obvious thought each one of these abilities is built on an imperfection you can only learn something new if you're imperfect you don't know everything already tell me improve if you're imperfect you could only commit suicide if your existence is not necessary it's only a happenstance and that's also an imperfection so we don't want to say accords protocol can do these things because we'd be implying that he's imperfect in other words we have a conflict now we want to say close growth is perfect we wanted to say that he could do everything but now we see it as a conflict what should we give up give up doing everything that's what all the sources say perfection is root slammers is root in understanding cut is powerful and if these silly examples contradict that then they are the ones that can go we don't say that he can learn something new you don't say that you can can't improve we don't say that if you commit suicide okay that's one as I say attacked on the simplicity of the idea of colossal there's another attack which has to be taken into account this works a different way it sounds similar but it's different and it has very important applications here are some examples dear little flippant but that's the way philosophers Worth cars burrow fool has challenged me to a game of chess because he's a much better player than I am and he's giving me an advantage he's playing with only his King I had the full set of pieces he's playing with only his King can he check mate me with only is key now of course I know that will be hard for you but we're talking about God can God checkmate me with only SK can because girl who'll divide 2 into 5 evenly with no remainder kena cutters world will correctly spell the world the word table with 4 letters exactly 4 letters I hope again you're beginning to feel a little uncomfortable what are we talking about here the example that you have in our sources is a square circle or the Rambla talks about making a subject into a predicate as substance into an attribute a table into round or square or brown square into a table there are certain things which are also eliminated think not things we're gonna say good welcome to do but for a different reason now the reason that was different because when you look at the words they fill in the blank gods can blank and you fill in the blank here the failures in the words in the blank check me with just the King sorry rules the chest don't a lot of them or divide 2 into 5 evenly with no remainder that's not how division works spell the word table with exactly four letters you're not spelling the word tape that's not a spelling words square circle if it's squared it's not a circle it's circled not square this is very different from the first cases the first case is what you put in the blank was perfectly reasonable perfectly logical perfectly applicable in fact what we were talking about in the first cases our abilities that you and I have ability to learn something new that's perfectly reasonable really do improve thirdly commit suicide places talks about that in several places everyone in this room has all those abilities those abilities that genuine abilities it's just that we can't see the cursor powerful answer does that would imply it is imperfect these new set of cases what you put in the blank is ridiculous now there are people who say well so what so what it's ridiculous is God bound by our logic it's only relief is to us it's openly our logic who says that he can't make a square circle why should he be limited in that way we're loving it because our logic is limited but he's not limited at all but I'm a fortunate say things like that so we have to understand why it is I think the critic here is making a crucial mistake the the truth is that when you fill the blank with make a square circle or checkmate with just the king or divide 2 into 5 evenly what you're filling the blank with is nonsense it's not as if there are various things that are limits and of course brothel has no limits he can move around galaxies he has no limited physical power and he can change the laws of nature the laws of nature don't don't affect him and he could change the nature of the universe altogether he can make people live and make people die you can create something out of nothing you can do all of those things and now you're claiming you've discovered a limit this he can't do that's got to be a mistake that's true if we were claiming to discover a limit and say this he can't do that would be mistake but that's not what we're doing what we're pointing out is that when you fill the blank with these words you haven't said a limit you'll fail to save them let me make it brutal suppose someone says can God block and you say what I mean what's blood I know is that a word I don't know what you mean and he says it's not a word it's just a sound but Kenny or can't you answer your film aren't you you got to say yes till my say God can't do anything right the correct response is excuse me you haven't described something to be done so you haven't asked the question can't God block that's just nonsense if I refuse to say yes I'm not a technology God has a limit no limit has been stated now let's try the examples that that we gave before square circle I want you to imagine you're on the way to the mall shopping somebody calls you up and says going to the mall yes have you got a spare 25 dollars yes could you get me something sure tell me what it is only glad to pick it up please get me a square circle what would you say I think you'd say what you want say you want he says yeah pick me up a square circle well where would you look the folding store the game store you know an art store at the supermarket where would you go I think you say to him I don't understand you I know what square means and I would circle means when you put them together nothing writes up inside you know you know both like bombs going off I don't know what you mean that's quite right you don't know what he means to communicate similarly if some says can God make a square a circle the right response is I don't understand you I don't understand your question because I don't understand what you mean by square circle I'm not going to say he can because there's nothing to say you can too I'm gonna say yes you only say yes to a proposition this is just nonsensical words now this is important to two respects first of all it solves this is a minor minor thing but it is people know about it if I solve that problem that people ask when they think they're very clever they're about 19 years old after the third beer at 1:30 in the morning can God make us stone too heavy for him to lift come on guys you guys with the amicus let's hear you can he make it or can't he make it that look if he can make it then he can't lift it so here's something he can't do and if he can't make it that's what he came to either way to something you can't do so he can't be all-powerful so Judaism can't be true order the cheeseburgers but of course it's not that simple because the critic is assuming that we have to give a yes or no answer can he create a stone too heavy thing to lift or not but suppose now we reflect to this to the critic stone too heavy for God to lift is nonsense it's nonsense and since it's nonsense I'm not going to answer yes or no I only answer yes or no to meaningful propositions if you speak nonsense I don't answer yes or no now why is stone too heavy for God to lift nonsense well because stove the word of God to lift means a stone so heavy that God was all-powerful can't lift it which means stone so every that God who could lift anything can't lift it which means stone so heavy that God who can lift it can't lift it and that's a contradiction so since what you are saying is a contradiction there's no reason to respond yes or no okay that's cute you know to impress the 19 year olds who haven't started to think it becomes very important with the problem of evil Prabha vivo many mokoros oh but many McCullough's say that evil is real and the college bro who created the evil as a means to a better end that means when you say that he's all good scholars kuvvatov it means as an agent everything he does is good sometimes an agent can do so can be doing only good and create evil as a means to a better end now that only works if you can't get to the end without the means you're only justified in doing evil to get to a good end if you can't get to the end without doing the evil but if you get to the end by doing the evil and should take the you know go around the bend and leave the evil out so we're gonna have to say across the world who creates evil in order to get to a better good and can't get there otherwise well umm can't get there does that mean I mean kerfuffle can't do X you know anything the answer is if you describe the good and describe the evil means that necessary to get to the good then to imagine getting the good without the means will be a contradiction like square circle if that's the case then the large their argument really worse you can't get to the end without the means not because there's a failure of power but because then without the means of the steerer the hero of free will is it necessary means fur clothes were lawful to give us what we wanted all of a book you look at the second chapter there Hashem I can't do this in detail now because time's up but you'll see that getting to a llama boar the waitress of the chorus girl who is a kind of sharing that sharing requires a very strong similarity with a college girl who and if I don't free will have for you I can't be similar to him at all so there could be a relationship like the relationship becomes broad wise to animals but the higher relationship requires similarity and without that similarity it isn't there so he gives us free will so that we can be independent in some sense as he is totally independent on the basis that independence the relationship is built that's what base that's what makes all of our possible and the possible here is the possibility of logic without the logic it wouldn't be possible so someone's sake just go to the Vegas at the end without the similarity that's not famous that's what Vegas is all of this were shared with you in the last 12 minutes is based on your logic it's understanding what Kali AHA means which is our obvious and not easy but you have to apply logic to do it the same thing is true with respect to understanding what Vegas is and why there has to be evil in the world all of this occurs Bravo communicated to us and expects us to understand it and that means he expects us to use our logic now what happens when your logic contradicts something that you know to be true because the masala tells us that it's true to be a pasta cutter a la Hache we see nine so as I said it the answer to say we should trust our logic doesn't mean our logic is infallible even those who have the strongest belief in human logic to from time to time change their minds if they don't they're not accountable or theory if they don't you shouldn't a person never changed his mind you should never listen to don't listen to anything he says so these very same people give human logic it's tremendous Sansa's it's its endorsement they know that sometimes it makes mistakes the question now is how do you draw the line and if you know that the Torah comes from I'm a car that's infinitely superior to us then you know that would not mcquarters you make the mistake it's a mistake and therefore trusting illogic doesn't mean that you trusted blindly but it isn't as if either you trust it or you don't many people today are into a mindset where it's either All or Nothing it's it's very dangerous mindset here you trust it almost all the time and then there are times when you have to recognize his limitations because broughal tells us what what the limitations are finally I'm just going to mention this without going through the all the details there's a big much like is that maybe not even in my office many McCullers say they can't be a misfit to believe in the photo awful they can't be a mitzvah to believe in clothes both the way that we shouting put it is a mitzvah presupposes a mix of a a commandment presupposes a commander so the very existence of the Mitzvah presupposes there is a commander who's issuing the command you can't then have a commitment whose content is to believe in the commander for that to be any commandment at all you have to as soon as they come in very good let's take that as a position what then is my responsibility to believe in the commander not because he told me to that's why I put on film that's why I keep kosher that's why I give charity that's why I produce justice Tiberium told me to do those things that's why I do that's why I'm obligated to them and that's why I do them belief in God isn't something I do because the world and told me to do it so why do I do it what's requiring me to do it the answer is logic logic look at the world look at the way the world runs look the alternatives you can see there's enormous evidence that if there's one who is running the world that means the responsibility of logic is built in at the bottom so system stands on logic and if you meet someone usually this happens in cure this is rapper I just don't agree that there's a responsibility to live with logic who says I'll teach you a trick don't ever discuss what a person responsible to do by discussing with the person you're talking to an S game don't you realize you have to do this don't do that you'll get especially from Americans you get a very defensive reaction don't tell me what to do don't push me around don't do it that way paint this an arrow in which somebody else is responsible to him and there's a failure and then he says she you lent your car to somebody and it crashed and you and what happens though the brakes will loses over and so on did you fix him no let me he didn't fix there my car it's crashed why don't you fix him and he says to you you speaking to the person you're educating he says to the guy artists crisis to him you want me to be logical I don't believe in a responsibility to be logical sure it was logical to fix to brace but I believe in that responsibility and I asked the person you're talking to is that okay she wasn't willing to kiss you for a goodbye live because he doesn't believe in that responsibility all of a sudden to find a tremendous change of heart excuse me if I'm gonna lose my car he'd better be logical just me and I have to be logical no I have all sorts of reservations but if he's gonna who cost me my car so there's a root human responsibility to be logical that responsibility delivers the existence of the very hola upon which the whole of Yiddish guide rests according to those were showing him that means logic has a very exalted position so the bottom line is yes the Torah believes in it and the reliability of human logic up to a very great extent and relies on that and therefore we shouldn't have any hesitation and working things out as logically as we can [Music] you