Ep. 25: The Artist Who Found The Rebbe with Michoel Muchnik

You know, to me as a of the Reb and the Rabbitson and the whole thing, it's like there is nothing I think that's more like meaningful to me in my life just but to have put a smile on the Reba or something like that, you know, or the rabbit like like this. It's it's so like the of it and just just the the good feeling I have with it. If you've been enjoying this [music] podcast, please like and subscribe so that others can enjoy it as well. In addition, if you've benefited in any way from a monkin podcast and would like to give something back, you can do so today at their.org/donate. I'm Yasi Cayman. Welcome to among an ongoing faban about life as a vibrant connection with theb and inspired living shaped by the way he teaches us each and every day. This episode is dedicated [music] for and good afternoon. How are you? >> Pleasure to be here. I'm great. >> Okay. Thank you for making the time to be here. I really appreciate it as will our listeners. Um so I think um the way we can begin is as follows. Hashem over the last few months we've been interviewing different people from all different types of backgrounds and different and there's something that there's a lot to talk about. You know everyone knows Machnik the artist. Um so that's Machnik in particular and then more generally you're part of a very important group of I was watching I don't know did you see the living mat shabas >> yes beautiful >> yeah it was about the bigisha and the rebba was talking about in the that they selected there about the youth at the time that was kind of breaking the mold and anti-establishment and the reba was speaking about using that energy to, you know, awaken Yiddishkite in the American youth and uh I think you're part of a a larger group of people that that actually happened to and uh you're here in Crown Heights and so maybe it should start from where you came from and how you got here and we'll start like that. Um, I also watched that. As a matter of fact, it it brought some tears to my eyes, which is not unusual watching the Rebas the videos Moi Shabas. Um, especially because it just brings back so many things. Um it was why is it was so touching to me is because it brings back that there was a lot of I don't know what you call it but the people didn't all agree with the rev about his you know some of the things he was doing with bringing people in and the youth and especially from the counterculture and long hair and all kind of stuff and um you just when you I'm watching it I'm feeling the the Reb's vision but not but more the compassion and the opposite role and recognizing that you know he never even spoke about that and the wellsp springs. So there's that. It's just a matter of some you have to dig a little more, some a little less, but but there's wellsp springs in every yet. And um fast forward to when I ended up in Marstown and I was in the first class of Tferris. And in line with that there were a number of members of Anash even when they went to or they rode into there but they were very very upset that their children should be in the same dollaramus same building even and it wasn't even we weren't even in the same as as some you know long-haired hippies and things it it they were begging the reban not to to do this not allowed this to to happen. And actually it was a full year before um I guess the Ramalipker or and Rabbi Herson or whatever because they they were running this whole thing where they actually got a um a braha from the rebel like very interesting. So um but that's a whole whole another conversation and um >> I heard that from Rabbi Herson actually when I was learning in Marstown we had a little fab with us and he told us you know this is many years ago so I don't remember all the details but he told us that they wanted to open up to feres and parents of the bahim complained that they don't want their children and the bakim actually wrote a whole letter to the hala saying no this is the and we want it >> really and to wait a little bit and then until eventually it opened. I don't know, a year or two or something like that. >> Right. >> Okay. >> Also, within a pretty short amount of time, some of us were like looking and acting a lot more from some of [laughter] these parents' own kids, I should say. Not saying that there was a I'm just saying that they saw that there that the stuff was going on. [snorts] Anyhow, um so I was very touched by that and um feeling that because you feel it's sort of personal, you know. Um, I'd like to I was asked to come in and I I thought that I where I would like to start before we get into all of that at uh is um if you don't mind is um literally when I was born like my connection to the rabbi if you want to say >> go right ahead >> and years after being in Labavich I came across a one of the Reb's letters a brief that was written the Reb was only like a year reb was in 1952 when I was born I [snorts] was born in Roshknissen and there was a brief that came out for Roshknissen now in those days like I'm not a maven and all this but from what I understand there weren't too many letters coming out >> what do you mean a brief >> a a letter you know the letter to to Claudius >> oh okay >> so as times went on they started coming out more often. But I believe that in those times maybe maybe pes it was whatever it was it was a and in that letter the was speaking about how the the children were being thrown into the Nile and assimilation and all that kind of stuff. And this is many years later and I'm reading this and I realized like that's like wow like I was born into that and I was born that day and the letter and I mean and I knew another guy who was born on that day and also became Lubovich but of course I had every child in my but still it made me just in actual feeling that the reb was like actually there already. >> Mhm. >> Fast forward. Um I went to like one of conservative synagogue which had like a Hebrew school after school and three days a week and I loved that. I I was fine with Jewish kids and most of my friends were Jewish anyway and it was like whatever. with you grow [snorts] up, a nice suburb of Philadelphia. And um we there was one teacher who he wasn't my main teacher, but he came in and taught history or some Jewish history, whatever. And he was from he was Orthodox. He had a hat, little beard. Growing up until pretty much until I went to Israel when I was 18. I never really really talked to or even had any do anybody was worth like there was in our neighborhood there was nobody there was some kind of little there was just some little yeshiva like 15 minutes away we drove by it was like I had no connection >> anyway fast forward many years later I see him in 770 this this teacher guy that taught you yeah I recognize him >> and um I went up to him and I said you know Rabbi D'vorah and he said yes I said, "Wow, you Lavish?" And he said, "Yes." Like, but he said it like I don't know how much Lovage, but he he had a connection obviously. I never saw him there. I never, you know, >> Rabbi Dvar. >> His name was Alhan Dvaron. I hope he's still with us. Anyhow, so um get talking whatever it was really it was nice. He got a lot of nas right. Fast forward um not even too long ago, maybe two years ago uh when the show comes out my story and it's a picture of him and uh he's on the front cover and this and that and there's a story and the story was that he uh lived in like a firm and I think he taught in some yeshiva there or something like that the first half of the day and he was offered in some yeshiva to do something in the afternoon and he was also offered to to this job of teaching in in our conservative synagogue, right? And he wrote to the Reb about which he should take and the Reb told him to take our our our place, you know, now this is Do you see what I'm where I'm going with this? Is this that like the Reb had us in mind already like planted somebody there. I don't know if he thought of himself as of as a reb that wasn't that kind of thing but he in fact really was just by his presence we were absorbing that you know that >> it's amazing >> right so um yes and then um okay where would you like to go >> so okay so it's now we have the the planting that the rabbi did um so in your personal story. So what happened at 18? Like so how do you how did you get from Philadelphia to Crown Heights? What was the >> Okay, so I was um I was very much got involved with my art uh when I was like mid- teens. I realized I had this talent. I was very much enjoying it and [snorts] into it. And then um I got real serious about it. And then already in high school I like was already you know counterculture hippie. I just you know was involved in all that and then um >> that was that came >> in the late60s >> that came that was that was the that was that was the times that was happening at the time. It wasn't it wasn't even the majority of kids but there wasn't good amount of Jewish kids you know um right so we got that was into all that stuff and then um I decided I wanted to go to art school so supposedly the like the Harvard of art schools the Rhode Island School of Design is where I ended up applying and I got accepted it's one of these art schools you had to actually have you had to actually be smart and have good grades to get into not just be able to draw something. >> Mhm. >> So, there's a lot of Jewish kids there, but in any which case, so I went there and then um at one point I just I had enough of all that just it was just destroying me in a certain way. Like I just realized this is like um headed not a good direction. And um I got to like health foods, but it was more it was this macrobiotic thing. Um and that's when I met Mayor Abbisera. People know that name. The web was >> Whistler. Can you elaborate about Mayor Abisara and the macro whistle? >> This could be a whole two-hour podcast. Everything I bring up can be another two. >> We have a lot of time. He's an important person. >> Um he all anyone with that name, it's it's Abu Katser and it's basically anyone with that name is related to the Babasali. There's no one with that name that's not um and um the Babis. So I think he's was like somehow related great great nephew or something like this. Anyway, his there was a massive exodus out of Morocco and northern cal northern Africa uh in 1948 when the state of Israel you know happened. there was, you know, like there was a lot of anti- that from Arabs and Arab countries and all this kind of stuff. There were a lot of persecutions, a lot very and and there was a lot of [snorts] Jews who just moved out of those areas. So they move a lot of moved to France because they're speaking French also the French mor it was you know they had language there and stuff like that some to Israel but a lot to France but that culture at that time like most a lot of the kids just assimilated into French culture and the parents couldn't stop it much so his parents yeah they were shabas and they they had you know kiddish I'm not they did but and uh you know as far anyway maintain like that what do you call it >> the fire >> it's in their it's in their blood you know appreciation of sadikim and just just just mystical mystic just that whole thing especially if you're an abacera right so anyway but so he became a very big like lecture and spiritual leader of you want to call this this whole thing >> of macrobiotics >> yeah right remember the macrobiotic thing is really based on something which is not so kosher like Zen and stuff like that, but it had all those things with the health foods and stuff like that. So, um, >> so that was popular for the people that are part of the hippie culture. >> Well, not everybody. A lot of people were not interested in that. They wanted to eat pizza, you know, [laughter] >> and and do whatever drugs and everything else. This is much This is more people like wanted discipline and wanted to get toxins out of their body. I don't know, whatever it was. I mean, there's all kinds of reasons. So um I had heard I was into the macrobotics and and in an art school and then I wanted to someone suggested I go visit him. >> He was already from then. >> No. Oh so when I got there he had already become from I didn't know that he had become from he became Baltuva. Very interesting story about that. Basically he was he had so many students and there were so many of them were Jewish and who who were like coming along and doing this and he was their teacher and mentor and spiritual like leader you want to call and he [snorts] was shocked how um ignorant most of these Jewish kids were from just basic Jewish things which he took for granted because he was really from a family that had you you know, >> really not just Judy, but but the mystical aspect, things that were really, you know, substance >> and he's encountering Americans who are >> he just realized that like how much he had thrown the baby out with a bathwater when it came to Jewish things and and he saw some of the things about some other leaders who were not Jewish with that stuff and and then then you know it was like he saw the certain things were not true. He just said, "Okay." And he just started convinced his wife. She was secular as far and he convinced her and to you know go along with his journey and they they started keeping shabas and everything and um a number of those students or alumni from that area they they they started coming along >> right and mayor was already very much connected to the reba somehow. No, not yet. >> No, no, no, no. When I met mayor, it was No, no, >> not yet. >> Um, there were even some Garin from that community. I mean like there was a few that were so enamored by him that when they saw he was getting into this they took it they they wanted to know and they they were very serious and they be there was three or four like >> and you met him at >> they didn't go to and some people didn't go to Kabad but I'd say the nucleus like 15 of us we went to Kabad >> what' you say >> you met him at this period when he already transitioned to becoming from >> right and then I had had this experience And not to go into too too many details, but like two years before I had I went for a summer I was 18. It was like a my parents paid for like a you know what do you call it a um a g a gift um graduation gift. I went to Israel went with a friend. We're in a kabut and this and then I was traveling around. And I met this old stopped me and was trying to be macar of me and he was doing that with a few there's there's people who are in kabad now a few guys who like he met but the same guy and one and end up kabad stuff he took me to kabad >> who >> this this old I just was just not not sure he was meeting like you know young American guys and trying to tell about you know mysticism and this guy and he had an effect on me But it was too heavy. It was too fast. And I just like I said, you know, it was two day two day thing went on and I checked out. But when I got to Mayor and I came in there and I walked in and it was it was Pes. I didn't know anything was after I was home for like a Passover break. So I mean, you know, like spring break and the end I before I went back to school, I wanted to go visit. So I went there and I got there and I walked in there. just finishing the meal sha pes the afternoon meal and he's wearing a black hat and there's other guys wearing black hats and I'm just I I was like what's going on over here [laughter] but it did bring back what had occurred two years ago that opened a spark and then these are people who were doing the same sort of journey I was like the same journey like so it was I could be a more of a vessel for it and as a matter of fact I always repeat this story one other guys was a an animated film came out called Lights like um it's animated uh oh comes out of Khan >> Hanukkah video >> yeah a really great great animated thing you know >> I grew up with that >> yeah right >> so the the they're not above us but the the ones who did that were in Bingmpington also with us >> Bingington >> that's where that's where Mayor Bisera was that's where I was visiting that's where you went yeah that's where I became No, you you went to Bingington to visit. Okay. >> Right. Yeah, that's where they were. And um >> one of those guys produced that video lights, >> right? And it was him actually. And if you remember Yurakillos, who runs ascent institute in Svas, he was they had an apartment and I went up with them to the apartment. It's about three or four guys and I just was about like I just was just about to open my mouth like and say like [laughter] how did you come to like what's going on right and I didn't get one word out of my mouth and this Gary Wertz's name was at the time so he says look he says and he looked at me straight in the eye and he said you know this is the right thing for a Jew that's or something like that like you know this is the right thing to do like he just it was like an thing and he got that and and you're going to get it, you're going to get it, you're not like no, just it was so amazing. And at that split second, I said, he's right. I'm not fighting this. I'm going to do it. And from that day on, that was it. Was it just teach me whatever. And then uh Mayor um he so he asked me to come, but I'd like to illustrate his book. I showed him my art, had a little meeting with him and he said, "I'm making a book. I'm writing a book." It's about Chinese healing medicine. It wasn't it's particularly a you know Jewish thing but he he said and I so he gave me room board and after I finished school after a month for the summer I came there and then I became and then I just went ended up not going to back to school and I went to yeshiva >> went to Paris. >> Yeah. So mayor um the mayor you you mentioned it already but uh the mayor is the one by the fabans whenever the reba motions to whistle it's the it's the >> right the reb had a he had a very interesting connection with the rebba the rebba liked him very very much um what happened was during the eight months I was there he heard about the rebba >> someone told him there's a sadic in Brooklyn you have to go see there was we did have bakr come once remember there wasn't that many to go around. Somehow we got two bakam. One of them was Markel. Um um he's has the he has the kabad house and it's fas and one was nulli somebody he was English. So that was the first time I saw two bakram right they came up at one point just for a day or something. I don't know maybe that I don't know who it was convinced him. So he went but he went not with us. He went and he said to this person this >> what year are you talking about? Oh, this is 1972. >> Mhm. >> He said, "There's no sadikim in United States. I'm from I know what sadikim are. I was brought up from the crib with Sadikim around me." He says, "I I just there's no sadikim in America. I've been around all over. I've been lecturing over this just just doesn't exist." He's met the rabbis. So, um, but they said, "No, no, this is different. This is different." And he came and he was standing at a for bringing. just walked in and he took one look at the Reb and he went he actually I heard the way it was he just started pointing like get and got so excited said sadik like he was so excited there's really it's time to get [laughter] so it's cute it's very cute story then he came back and then he convinced us to go to utes kissler for bringin I didn't know anything about that what it was but I went cute story about that too. I remember looking at the deis and you know I'm young. I'm like 20 years old and and I see I'm being pushed. I'm being crunched. I'm standing up like it's hard to stand up so but I see behind the rebels like all these old old with like nice long white beards and they're sitting there and everything is like cool, you know, and they're relaxed and they're sitting there listening and they're closer to the Reba and all this kind of stuff. So I I said, "Look, there must be something right with this this this this what's going on here because where I come from, the older you get, you end up in like, you know, the old age home and no one talks to you and no one visits you, blah blah blah." Trust me, there was a lot of that. I said, "But here you like you just get better with age and they get more respect and all this kind of stuff." [laughter] It's really so interesting that when you come in from other from the outside so to speak things that you notice that people who inside >> never notice >> just don't notice right >> now that I have a long white beard so now I'm wearing for the respect but that's besides we have here that's yeah right but then when I I came to Marstown to check out yeshiva I also went to Rabbi Fifel Shash because a couple guys from Bingmpington actually went there so I went to see them and to see about if that was a place for me. >> There were Baltuas in >> I was I need to go to yeshiva. I realized I wanted to go, you know, it was time to go. >> And he's a Shiva. They had Bal Chuva in >> Yeah, that was for Bali Chuva. >> That's what it was. Okay, >> I believe >> but he ended up going to Maristan. >> There wasn't very few choices or go to Israel for Kabad. There was no there was >> or Darra. Um, the reason I went to visit Marstown is because one of the guys, Ruven Shelberg, Olen was in Bingmpington and he went to he went to there and I was friendly with him and he invited me to come and I got there and that night not to go again. All these things can just be a whole other long conversation. Um um Aravkar was those language where he was uh for bringing like was the first it was only six months since the first bak got there. Most of them spent time playing chess and learning a little bit. It was just too much you know so he had to work with the students. There was very few guys who like really wanted to sit and spend time learning but it that changes as time went on very quickly. But um it was the first time he really when I say like really for bra I took a lot of and really went went and I just happened to show up then and and with my friend and I'm sitting there and I don't know he was on the table and he was pulling beards and it was like all kinds of stuff was going on. He was the right guy for the right time because I don't know how to explain it but a lot of us came in with a lot a lot of yashas big- time yashious thinking that like people asked me you know you know did did you know about Msiah till you came I said we're talking about the whole thing was then about Msiah the Aquarian age all these things you know like we're all about that I said the only difference between now and then was that I thought I was Messiah [laughter] I because you know things like whatever. So I know Rabbi Lipster's thing was really breaking yes and he was the things to break our yesas and it was like some of it was some people couldn't take it some people the next day they packed up and left but I remember clearly it started to be that people would walk around and just say I'm a Gornish like they started think they're like h this is it you know I'm a gornish [laughter] so when it got like around like that. So he pulled us together for uh one night for another for bringing and he said okay guys got good I'm glad you got it that you're all Gornish he says now can you get up and start doing something [laughter] now it was like real stuff was going on anyway to get over that beyond that um no I remember I I I really was very uncomfortable with that for bringing and I was thinking places like Looney and then uh I was going to leave and then the next morning I got up and and we also had a carrier lipster home. I mean, he really he was in good spirits and um next morning he's helping someone with the I wake up and and he's we were living in the we called it the bowling alley. There was one big room and it had like like long what do you call those the slats on the floor whatever it was. [laughter] Oh, like a bowling alley and there's little beds and that's like all all of us. We slept in this one place. I got up and he's like sitting there helping someone, you know, with his bed and this and getting him what he needs and have a pillow. I it was so like grounded and I just dawned on me that like well everything he said the night before was like it was like true. >> It was like true. And there's another moment when I said I'm I it's true. I can't I'm not This is it. So I signed up. >> So that's signed up. >> Signed up. Went to his office and then signed up. >> So let me ask you a question. >> Um in that we started off with that was in the living is speaking about specifically those that are counterculture or anti-establishment to use out that energy, >> right? Right. >> And it seems to me that the Bala that I talked to from that era >> seemed to most of them were that was part of their story. Either they were like either they were hippie or traveling or macrobiotics or that. >> No there was ashanas there. >> That's what it is. So what is it? >> No there was ashanas like we were not just run-of-the-mill it. We were we were it we rebelled against the society. Never spoke about it. Mhm. [clears throat] >> We built we were brought up basically in the material world and being okay with that. Other generations had they who had time to like even think about other stuff, you know, you just had to put, you know, bread on the table. My grandparents came over. I mean, they didn't have a dime. They had to, you know, so we were like spoiled a little, right? But also, but but there was but there was something deeper and the spoke about it. we this this was not working for us. I'm not interested in just like it's not this is not what it's all about cuz we had it and that's not what's all about all about. So we there was like a vacuum that allowed us I think to say if you're a spiritually minded person do you hear what I'm saying? you start searching. >> Mhm. But it I I don't know what to call it, but it was I say I I tell people I say look at me now where I am and what I you know and what my life and everything like that and just think of me like in this secular situation and having my own issues or whatever. Everybody had their own stuff, you know. I just couldn't exist like that seeing what what I am now to be not this this look at it go backwards and and think about that and I could take anyone who like you know became like you know Baltua like most like it was they just couldn't [laughter] be there it's like gay you know like gay like it says it's a Jewish nishama so why does some just go that That's them that point they actually will take all this on and become Jewish is because they can't not stay that way. That's how they feel. Do do you get that sort of what I'm saying? It's very deep. Um, so was that like um, so ba basically the time the culture or whatever this experience that youth were then experiencing was kind of like a prime time I guess for those for them to be directed to channel that energy into into like total like I think about or something or it's it's the Reb's work the something with the rabbi I guess because I can't It's I mean God is like I don't know sometimes I think don't take this wrong but some I feel like he just pllopped down a certain kind of certain nishamas into that whole soup because there was no way to get out of it unless we were there was people like us who just couldn't be there >> right that doesn't make any sense to me I still marvel at the whole thing constantly I marvel and everything that's any good that's revealed good that happened to me sins or anything it's like I appreciate it so much like because I see people didn't take take this this this road >> so beautiful I was just got um my parents um are buried near my hometown So I was my mother's dirt. So I ended up that I'm getting older. I didn't want to like drive the whole way back and forth. It's like altogether five hours to go there and go back in one day. And so I decided like you know this year I'll I'll call nearby and sleep over. And so I called I said listen I'm coming. >> You're talking Aline? >> He wasn't available then but he was the one closest but um he wasn't there then. So I went to another um Brandon I think I didn't stay by him but it was whatever. So I said I'm coming and I said I'll like I'll make it for bring for my mother's yard site and and I'll for bring is brought to you by we live in a chaotic world a world where for usim is au we do not have the ability to hear and see the on a daily basis. Yet we know that the rebba is very much with us and is alive and thriving more than ever before. One needs to only tap into it. Provides you and your family with the tools necessary to tap into all of this. 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You can be part of their through your financial support as well through visiting our website.org or through contacting us to setting up a meeting. Thank you very much. Enjoy the rest of the podcast. So, he tells me, Rabbi Brennan tells me that across the street, the guy has a business and he's an old friend of mine. So it's one of my good old friends from high school and he says, "Yeah, I put the filling on with sometimes." So, so the the not him, but the another who he lives by. So he's getting involved over there and he sends me a picture of him with and he's trying to convince him to come up to the banquet. This is like 50 years after I and here's one of my friends, you know. So everybody's will come around [laughter] >> um >> to uh >> to be there. >> It wasn't easy, you know, to for me to go like my friends thought like I really flew the coupe. Um it was very uncomfortable. I don't my parents at the time everybody changed after a while you know things of course but it then it was it was hard parents family they just you just they just could not relate didn't want to relate it was very painful there were a lot of tears I I shed a lot of tears on yeshiva from things like that it was very painful and just also to go from like hippieism which is basically do whatever you to like you know you have to cut your nails this way. [laughter] It's not an easy road. Thank god actually I was involved in macrobotic because that actually in fact was a very big discipline with the diet with you know how you ate and everything like that which that was that was a good of course we all dropped that because it wasn't really you know the sources to kougal and chant >> what >> you went you went over to kougal and chant >> we tried a little bit but you know it wasn't so most of us still eat healthfully once you have that consciousness you're not going to just go right >> you know by food coloring food every day doesn't happen anyway. Yeah. So um >> so you're in Marstown in the environment there, >> right? >> And so you're talking about 1972, >> right? >> Right. >> So I believe those years every bak was able to have a for their birthday. So were you part of that? >> Right. So um I was actually part of the it wasn't group it was private each each ber >> but I was part of the first group from Teresa that was offered. So there was >> not not as a group but you guys >> not as a group there was eight of us that we had birthdays at some point recently to that day and it was either somewhere between the third fourth or fifth of year and um my was like eight minutes long. Rabbi Groer came in twice to try to pull me out but there was talking to me and what are you supposed to do? I didn't have that. They never was talking to me, >> right? >> Um >> but you came in with questions. >> I I wrote my things down. >> So tell tell us about tell me about the what happened over there. >> Yeah. But going forward, just recognize in general like there's a lot of personal things from the Reb to us to anybody. And you know, I don't need to share every little thing, right? But um >> these days everyone wants to hear everything. >> I know that. So [laughter] they have retreats for that. Anyway, so um I wasn't the first one to go in, but I I whatever. You were just so concentrated. I I was quite anxious about it. >> Who? Someone prepared you like >> I had already been learning in Marstown for months. So I we and we had gone to for bringing in Shabasim that they I mean I realized I was going into the Reba and it was to me I I accept the Reb as the Reba and for me and for everything and everything I'm going to do and and like total like it was a total given over to that. Um but I just was so I was anxious like wow I'm going to be alone. I it really sort of freaked me out. I mean, I was like clench like that kind of thing. [snorts] Um, we prepared as much as we could. In fact, Rabbi Groner cancelled. We were supposed to go in like two weeks before and Rabbi Groner canceled the whole thing. We found out later that he did it sort of on purpose. He just felt like we needed to have more of a appreciation about going something. And I'm just telling you what happened. So, um, I walked in, the door closes. I didn't go over to the desk. I'm just standing there. I'm just breathing in the the the what you call it the air. I the the I had such a spir I I don't know how to explain it. [snorts] I the only way I can explain it was like [sighs] and I can only say it's like smell, but it's not smell. It was like a spiritual. It was like just a a spiritual g spiritual g um a story book like Ganed and like Labovich like story book labage. You know you see these pictures like I don't know what it was. It was just so it was just a like beautiful hamish and I I was just standing there like just like just breathing it in. [laughter] Then I hear like the saying come closer. I could I don't know how long I could have stood there. I was was I was just in another place. So I walked over to my pond, but I was literally holding my hands together like clenching like I was really quite I was afraid thing. I was really afraid I'm going to have a bad thought and mashora. I mean there's there's all kinds of stuff just go into all that stuff but in any which case um and there but looked at my read my pawn and answered questions some of the questions and I brought in and I have them right here. I brought in three little pieces of art because I was I was actually asking the Reba, one of my big things was asking the Reb what I should do with it >> about your I was it's really amazing like we're like really I can't speak for anybody else but I was given over like whatever the says it's it's Torah Msinai that's it right and um I have heard there was somebody in the yeshiva there who who his parents wanted to go back to school and he was not going to back to school and and they said well whatever and they suggested yes he has threat but he and he came in and as told him he should go back to school and get his so interesting um so no one knew what what to expect >> so this is one >> but let me show you >> this is one of the dilemmas that you this is one of the dilemmas that you were going through like what to do with your art. >> Yeah. I was like guessing here. I'm a tal I'm a talented artist. What should I do with it? >> So you showed the rabbit these. You want to show it to >> I'll show >> this one. >> I mean I since framed them but this was these are just they're just two suken. But I I asked the reb I can I like to do calligraphy maybe I should become a sofuler. suffer and never told me I should ask a sofurer about that. So I don't know why I picked these two purses really like them. So one is um from Yeshai and one is from Tillum. I'm not going to translate them right now but they're they're just beautiful. One's like sort of about Mashiach and the whole nations will come to you and one is about how the you know like into a tree planted by streams of water you know yields fruit in its season and and all that you do will prosper. They're beautiful. So you brought these to the reba >> they were they were I just these two little things they weren't in the frame and then I bought this this this little drawing which was uh it's called shul and it's just like like it's like a little scene like a Russian stetle sort of thing. >> Move it this way. Yeah. >> And uh like in the winter it has a mandav on it. That's an >> art. So um and I asked her but should I what should I do in yeshiva should I can I keep drawing in Shiva you know I mean it's hard for me not to do anything and every shouldn't interrupt the schedule of the yeshiva which pretty much the schedule of yeshiva you learn all the time but there was the last you know the last half of shabas and then moi shabas so that's what I did those times when the guys are playing basketball or something I would draw art >> draw and I ended up giving um pictures away when kids when people came like a kassen or something I would give them an original. Can you imagine I was giving a anyway I did I did a super for somebody um no charge typical artist thing anyway so um >> saying the artists have talent but it's not always making money >> terrible [clears throat] business people so uh no and then in the middle of the D was like went down to the side like it went off and was with his chair holding my pod and like literally going like bending down and just meditating on it and I believe it was then says they'll take advantage of you. Can you imagine being told that this by the way [snorts] they'll take advantage of you? By the way, I didn't understand half of this stuff was going on until later on in life. But and then came back and then the reb you should find a manager who you trust. >> Then this is right >> I connected it the two but because they were right next to each other. What >> this is right after the Reb telling you only engage with it out of say there >> no that I don't know exactly when that was. I was remember that. No, it was in the I was there for a while. So that um the Reb also told me things from my birthday. There were some certain things I think the Reb said to everybody >> giving stucka and learn way to learn extra those things. >> Um at one point I was getting like actually I was getting upset because the rebbit had not yet looked up at me at all. And I'm like can you imagine you're with the rebbit it's like eternal every moment's like eternity. And I was clearly agitated whichever read my mind and just and then looked up and but it was like this look of they were looked up at me and it was just a look of like such rahmanis that when they looked at me like that I I don't know what I was thinking. I was thinking like all right maybe I shouldn't have [laughter] asked for that you know and now looking back it doesn't disturb me but at the time it was like I felt like first of all am I that low everyone look one wouldn't look at me and then looks at me like I like I'm a Ramona's case or something I I don't know it was just like I was I couldn't I didn't have time to absorb it and then it's very personal but I'm sharing it because I it really later I came to see a lot of things from it but um anyway so I'm walking at the end just stops and you know it's the end so I'm walking backwards out I get to the door and the says wait come back so I walk back and say are these for By the way, Rebu spoke English. I understood everything. Oh, no, there's one part of it. I'm sorry. Um, I forgot when did look at the art. The Reb did say I should make Cassubus. Reb did say that. Um, and the Reb told me I should photo that. And I did not know what that meant. I've heard the word photoat, but from where I came from, that's like this mimigraph machine in the back room that you know you photo you know people's tests. It was very strange term and I I didn't know what that meant that I should photo that. So I said >> so I said what and it just repeated photo and then I said what again river said photo and then I said a third time and then I realized I should just shut up. I don't understand. I just realized later I realized I never meant I should print. It's just funny. I don't understand. Anyway, so >> photo means like a copy. >> Yeah. But in my day like photos that was just you photo you print something cheap, >> right? >> It didn't it didn't register. >> I had even you know that kind of thing. Even the prints if you want to call I made in art school were like limited edition and they were like artsy and you make a certain >> was telling you to print your art to sell. He didn't say it the full sentence, but that's actually that's obviously what the reb meant. But then then later, so then I come back and that's and um I see the Reb is you know that's I mean at least for me and I just I believe I said something like if the Reb wants like I didn't have an issue with it. Everyone's keep a piece of my heart. I didn't have uh the so looked at all three and then this one the reboot like actually said I'll keep this one. So I was fine. I took the other two and I'm walking out and then um I hear the say come back again. So I come back again and the Reba says is this an original? I said yes. Reb says he hands it back to me. says, "I can't keep an original." He said, "Um, if you'll make a print, you'll send me a print." So, as it was, I realized that it was a business thing. I probably didn't want to spend money and print things and I feel that it's cheaper. I don't know what the whole thing was about in my head, but as time it went on and I I started worried. So, I started making and in fact, the first lithograph I made, which is a whole way expensive way of making it. Um, >> what's a lithograph? Oh, I don't have it here. Um, I'm not going into that whole thing. It's you you there's there's you get a lithographer who actually like redraws your the colors on a different plates and then inks them and then prints it and it's a long but they it looks more original and it's [clears throat] nice. So, I sent the 18th numbered edition. You number them like one over 250, two over you make addition and you you destroy the plates. So they're like worth things like like stamps that are you know you have limited edition they be they're worth more like that. So um I sent it by the 18th month. So it was like and I also made a print of this picture and sent it to the Reb too. And then after that when I would have do something new that I was printing like or like a printing thing or something not every little thing I would send the Reba the 18th one and they're in the collection in the library. In fact, they displayed one in one of the exhibitions they were having. >> So now I understand because I think I have I think I have arts from you that has numbers in the back. So now >> if it has a number, it means it's a limited edition. >> You gave me one for my >> what? >> I think you gave me one for my upsh. >> Yeah. Yeah. I gave a lot of things away in those days. Um yeah. Um so where was I going with that? So um so that was that >> that was and then um yeah >> so you went back to yeshiva you went back to yeshiva >> right >> and so eventually you you got married living in Crown Heights >> right >> so you knew right away like that you're going to be an artist as a as a profession you wrote >> yeah well I was going to Hi. >> Mhm. >> Very impractical thing. But I from the Reb. Oh, I think the Reb said something. In fact, I'll give you a bra for Parnasa. I the Reb said that. I don't know if it was that. Maybe it was. But for an artist just to make Parnasa and have n kids hor and all that whole stuff. You have no idea. Like that's a hu that's a it's most artists just they'll do it as a hobby. They'll do it this, they'll teach, they'll do other things, but they to make a living as an artist is very very difficult. So I feel so you know from the rebba and stuff like that. Um there are amazing things that happened. >> So what were some of the other involvement from the Reb in your in your art? They said we have multiple things here at the show. So >> right. Well there were sometimes I sent things in and the Reba would actually send out Harose >> like what? Well, I'll show you. One of the first things I printed here is this this this this olive. This was the original one. I've I've done up updated ones. My styles changed and all that kind of stuff and some things got a little more more mature. My earlier works, not when I was in college, they were not childlike p motif. But when I somehow when I became from it was like I feel like a little kid in it's like I knew and I like I don't know I had that and so a lot of my stuff was like very very like yeah story book sort of feel in fact when I was in this and I had and remember I told you I walked in and I felt that feeling. >> I remember the first thing I thought about was that oh my gosh I have to get this feeling in my art. I want that feeling to be in my art and get that across what I felt there. So interesting. >> She's saying so that the way it express itself was more like a child experience. >> Yeah. There was something like very pure about it. You know, it's like people sometimes are brought up this way and so they have they they have some Jewish trauma, you know, associated with this that and the other. I mean, we had some of that too, like because we did have things we were taught. So I had to sort of undo my feeling about it certain things but generally speaking and all was just brand new and like in like it was just especially like these different things. So I did the olive. So this was one of the first things I printed and it was for you know children's rooms although I saw hanging in people's dining room too but um and I took the void from the alterba >> you're the above. Yeah, the [clears throat] above >> above >> Hashem the creator below the yidden the Jewish people and above >> Torah mitzvah uniting them. So um I also thought maybe there would say something because I had the moon and the stars and but remember didn't say anything about that. Um because not in this version but as I got more touch I put a crown on the top the ki show to represent kesser represent whatever hashem king of kings whatever and that's when I ever went and spoke about it or lectured and and I explained my pictures said not to have the kesser >> no the didn't say anything about that I'm just saying I was wondering if the would say anything about that I made like shmayim and like that's because it says hashem the creator there. >> Mhm. >> But I don't know. But I I but I did end up adding a crown just because I wanted to be clear to everybody that but in the original >> you wanted that the the on top of of >> Yeah. Yes. I want that clearly in the picture. >> Okay. >> So my other versions after this >> in the year below the original version and I had already made what they call color separation. In those days, it cost a lot of money. It was the most expensive part of the printing was to get a color separation to print in color. It was very expensive. That's why you didn't see a lot of the things that were printed in color in books, anything in those times. Um, even my children's books, the first children's books, well, I'll talk about that in a minute. So they were like I had they were just like two there were two colors and and I had to do a whole thing to get the hand work to get that it's a whole thing that went on with that but um um but this was full color so it cost a lot of money and the color separations I paid for already and and the Reb said that that that in the year below I should put Jewish people there was just like a landscape of Eros was like orits like Erit's role like you know >> and the episode said I should add Jewish people and there said for example a woman with a tickle a boy with sitsus etc later on like you put two and two together with these things I got a lot of haras that that were that would be things that that artists and illustrators later on that did things for Bob Lobage like they they just I was one of the first to get these haras >> right they they came later and they knew like the rules but for the rules being established through you >> right if you put it if you put it it's going to look like regular hair so for the even though it was into but if you're doing it in a in a illustration like a like is clearly she has her hair covered >> that kind of thing so I that's how I took that but in any which case so I had to redo it and I I paid extra for and I I to the to do the color separations that that were and then but then it you know it paid for itself you know it sold nicely and that was it but um uh >> well if you're listening to the then you have the bra and you're right >> that was the only for that one >> right so then there was um another I'm just going to mention a few different things >> we have all these but yeah do >> no they're they're all they all have something that the Reb dead that um this is now there's a book called The Great Mitzvah Fair, but before the book I made this painting and then sold the painting and I just made a poster out of it for kids rooms and stuff. So there's just, you know, it's like a what do you call like a Jewish uh >> I see it says in the bottom 1981. >> Yeah. Like an amusement park thing like that, right? So I could tell from sometimes of the answers things the these type of things like I think there was getting like pleasure out of it, you know, like they're like sort of whimsical. There's something I I did get a feel. Um so there but I it comes out and says that uh I should add an aasro gift shop. So when you look in the book now the great mitzvah book which has been reprinted you will see there's this aasel gift shop that was totally the rev's idea. Yeah, >> it's beautiful. like that would show like like how could you show a kid like obvious like how could buy a gift for kid something amusement park bring something to his birthday party whatever >> um and um and then the rest >> the idea of gift is obviously thrill >> yeah mama like how do you that that was a good way for kids you know like >> um then there was this um what else did the say um official gift shop And >> these were written responses or these were like >> they were written. Yeah. Like there said you're uh you're missing Lula Vaness. I took that not as a really serious like I have to go or like come I took it like there was like smiling like I have a billion things in here. you're missing little Vanessa like you know like [laughter] um the funny part is is that up here right here in the top corner in this in the border there's a little of an S rug >> but I decided look it wasn't one of the main things that was up there and and and I I took it like I also took like the river was taking this in but not maybe like that doesn't deal with [laughter] it and this was the I don't know what but I didn't send back and say well I did put it in there >> if said he means the the coming from the rabbit means it should be a bigger thing that's noticeable in the main part of the picture that's how I took it and in the book there's also they're sell in one of the places he's selling and stuff like that so um >> and you have um you have these the the written answers somewhere many of them I don't know I don't know I'm still trying to find things for here now this >> this is very interesting you know well first I'll talk about the children's books >> so you did a books with kahas >> now oh that was another thing I asked I asked the I asked oh I missed part of the >> we never said >> this is all the first >> yeah I'm back to the first the other ones I was in twice you know once before marriage and once and one more time as a baker and then I knew to shut up and just like I didn't I don't think I said anything you know >> because I heard from other Baluva that they were told not to ask any questions. >> So I guess you weren't told that before you ignored >> it. No, I didn't ask I don't remember asking about any questions in that first either. >> I asked the questions in my pawn, right? A couple questions that you could you know the Reb didn't answer everything by the way was something the Reb didn't answer. I was actually upset about but you know like well it wasn't time it wasn't this um so in the uh when said you should make subas I took that as a green light to do to do art like it just I don't know and it was in the shama thing I because it's really what I do and want to do and um I got really excited and I said Oh, and I can do children's books. That's something I wanted to do. So, the Reba said, um, at the time, so the Reba said, "Yes, you have to understand I was still a little bit 60s in me, you know." So, I got really excited. I started clapping my hands three times. I said each time Barashem, you like clapping. I'm not even embarrassed by it because it was so it was so coming from such a pitas and a place where I was. had no problem. The reb not look up the Reb said and not like not like uhhuh but something like like like the Reb said something to to each like [laughter] and then um so I went to the afterwards so the next day I went to I went to Rabbi Zur to see if I should maybe become a sofer >> because he never told you to check it with the cipher, >> right? So, and I loved I just loved Hebrew letters and I loved that when I ever tried anything like that, I really loved it. So, I come in to him, I sit down and I say, "I want to be a sofer." [laughter] So, he says, "Okay, one moment." So, he goes back and and he comes back with this safer that was like, you know, 5 in high. was um and and and he says, "Okay, learn learn this safer and then come back and I'll teach you how to write an olive." So I said, "Oh, you see, I'm an artist. I can I I don't need to learn all that before I write it. I'm I'm artistic. You can just, you know, you can just start teaching me." I was like totally naive about any of the stuff. So um I didn't know this all. I didn't know. I know denim. You have to yam, you have to take I had known any all that stuff. the bad everything is I had no idea. So, [snorts] um I I think he just I don't know if you call it playing along, but the Reb said I should go. So, >> you didn't tell him that. >> He knew who he knew. I I did. >> Oh, you told him? >> I I knew he he knew he was dealing with what he's dealing with. So, he actually goes back and brings back a whole bag of old quills and ink and he starts teaching me Olive. Can you imagine? So, just teaching me. So he says here he knew I wasn't learning I wasn't ready to become the servant you know but he's just like he said go go go back to Shiva practice and when you get this down you'll come back and I'll we'll go bite her. So I went back she and I started doing it and it was like I realized it wasn't so easy and then it started dawning on me like there's like these these there's laws just there's laws about everything else all these laws and I'm not you know whatever I wasn't one of the most learned people in yeshiva still not you know troubled languages and I just so next time I came in I like sheepishly like brought the whole bag back to him and I said you know I'm just going to be an artist. [laughter] So that was that. >> But the sensitivity of the way they ever dealt with it is quite quite fascinating if you think about it, right? I think it was fascinating. Anyway, okay. But to go on a little bit with the books. So I went to I went to Krinsky and I just said I >> was after you left Yeshiva when you live. Um, yes, cuz I wasn't supposed to be doing much then, but I I was in yeshiva another year, but I wasn't. And I came and I brought I think I wrote I wrote Did I write it already? I wrote a story book. A story maybe did an illustration to show and then I I I came into Marcos. I went to Euro and I actually I must have said something that the Reb said I should that I asked do children said yes. I don't know if he thought that meant that they should consider me as doing it because Deb said yes like he didn't say oh you know or anything he just he liked the manuscript and ended up that they hired me to do two books so um it's only two >> the the first one was do comes home and the scriber live in a tree but I'm telling these days when I see that's how fast she can do things >> one of them is Uh, my parents are the characters in one one of them. >> That could be. There were some people that sort of looked like them. Not like >> No, no, the names. >> Oh, yeah. >> Yeah. I'll show you. I forgot which one it is. One of them. >> Oh, yes. There was [laughter] aunt Aram and Aunt Bala. Oh my gosh, that's so funny. I I don't know if I did that on purpose. >> You know, you just sort of by nature, you take things people, you know. That's very possible. >> [laughter] >> That's very funny. Oh my gosh. Okay. Anyhow, so um where were we up to with that? So, um I and I don't know whatever it was. I don't know if Utrinsky like showed these things to the Reba. I don't know. But now looking back, it's pretty amazing that they that Merkos decided just take what I did and and there was very little editing on it. Very little. Hardly anything. >> You wrote them and illustrated. What? You wrote all of them and illustrated. >> Yes. There was the only one I did was The Great Mistair which I did write but they didn't like it and they they got someone to do a poetry thing to it poem. It was fine. Um like I remember one of the changes in the in in Doa comes home was the only ch was he was uh getting all these things at the store and when he got back was Shabas it was just right. By the way that whole thing is a mushel for Baltouva. If you read it again, it's a whole mush about the story of Abalua and connection to the Reb, the whole thing. Anyway, so um I remember KR said um we're changing it to already cooked fish because there's people might think you're getting back and she's going to cook fish because it wasn't cooked. You know, it's because I had this old like fish with the tail like coming out the basket or whatever. Anyway, whatever it was. So anyhow, that was that. So, um I still I'm still So, I remember one time walking into 770 and you know that that there's like a >> oh gosh a cabinet big glass cabinet but it says, you know, uh uh >> with the label on the top, you know, made out of wood. >> Yeah. next to the other room. >> They would change here and there, but it was because if something came out new, but anyway, there was like the first there was there was four or five like little shelves and they would have they had from this from the alter they had from, you know, [laughter] some and then the bottom they had my four children's books, right? I mean, crack up. So, like it's just funny. It's just very funny. Um you know once told me he says you know we saw when they go on merk they saw more of my children's books than anything else because people weren't from like someone there was mostly Hebrews forum and other things that were just like too religious for that. So they bought the children's books there's all stories about that too. I mean someone showed up on my my house once she full-blown from and she told me that they became from from reading one of my children's books. >> They bought it from uh their kid was going to some Jewish uh camp. They bumped into these two buckham came to the camp and they were selling for him to the parents on visiting day and they bought they bought do comes home and they they were enamored by the whole idea of shabas and stuff like that. They literally tried to do whatever they could do with kosher food that's just from this children's book. I mean there was no place like look something up you know and like Google nothing the the reb was know that or they just were not didn't know and they just waited until the next year when two more guys came and then then they hooked them up and they became totally from amazing story >> um then there's a story that I didn't know of until two years after that happened was um someone mentioned the Reb carrying this book. Do it comes home after Meer walking with it under his hand clearly like like holding it walking home. I said I never heard about that. And they were there they they couldn't believe it like because it was one of these things that was people was were talking about it because was so like unusual. And then it was very I was very touched by that and I realized that the was taking the books home to the Rebbitson. you know like >> to show her and then Moshklorski all of a sham did tell me once that the Rebbitson liked the books very much >> you know to me as a rebbitson and the whole thing it's like there is nothing I think that's more like meaningful to me in my life just but to have put a smile on the reba or something like that you know or the reb like these It's it's so like the of it and just just the the good feeling I have with it. All the other things I feel like I aggravate the rabbi. You know, we all have things we feel like we're aggravating, we're not doing, we're this, we're that, you know, all that kind of stuff. like thank God that like you know I have these these things that I can they're just references to just align me once again feel the braha um and then one time I sent in these prints remember told me to print so I'm printing I made a little greeting card company things like that and I this is like these like they're just like little pictures I And then you know >> you made a greeting card company. >> What? Kala ladies little with sitsus. What' you say? >> You made a greeting card company. >> Some of these were remaining greeting cards. But these were just prints, >> right? >> And I sold them as a package. So I just sent I sent this this sent them into the Reb. That's this is what I'm I'm doing. It's another thing that I just printed. So the Reb sent out I have a copy of it. the Reb sent out. I don't have the original check because unfortunately it got stolen, you know, in those days there's a lot of crime. We we got robbed a lot and one time they took the Reb's dollars and pushes and and and I had and by the same place like so they thought it was a check so they took it but thank god I had made a copy of it photos. That's an $18 check written to Michael Mutchnik both spelled wrong. No, Michael's Mahal Mutchnik spelled wrong. Funny secretaries probably did that. And this the reb wrote wrote $18. So I said to Rabbi Klein, he's the one who gave I said I'm not charging that much for them. Like the overpaid >> overpaid. >> So he said, "Don't worry, I'm home." [laughter] The rep plays the rep pays a good price. Just take the check. But I didn't want to cash it. Of course, there have a signature, you know, that kind of thing. You wanted to look at it, you said. >> But I thank God I made the copy of that. So, um, >> there's no date. >> Interesting. >> There's no date on it. >> No. >> Um, and I just I if the Reb brought bought it, I I would assume that the reb also brought them back to give to the rabbits. I would just assume that. Um but I don't know for sure but still you know how it made that me feel there were other times so many times I I I remember I just listened to your podcast with a freed and there certain things in common and um the rabbi did give me different when I went to do exhibitions around the world and there were a couple times he gave me um in the currency of the country. Um, I can't find those currencies. I don't know where they are. Maybe they were also stolen that time. Whatever the gave me from that. I was so about that told me to >> after the breakin. >> Yeah. The told me to to look and see what the writes in um explaining the it's so it's a small paragraph and some explains there and it starts like on the Yiddish um saying that noa come Shirus after fire comes riches. Um it's based on that the it starts when there's a dinen that the rahim after is greater than the original. So a beautiful braha um and was it so it should be so it was beautiful braha. Um then when I started with the exhibitions, see now that looking back on it, I mean I felt it then too for sure, but there was was such a unique way of being macar people and to teachidas through a method that was just so up their alley. people were very much into arts and all kinds of stuff. So like a rabbi plops down and comes and wants to give a lecture. Some people are going to some people are going to whatever. Some people just don't even like listening to anybody talking. I mean there's all kinds of things that go on. Here I made this slide presentation eventually which is just I took really was from like from the birth of a child and and I went through olaf and a base and I get I explained all these and then I went through holidays and it's about a half an hour long and I would show this at the exhibition. We'd have it for like first half hour of the exhibition and then they would go in and then they would see all the stuff and things were priced and people bought stuff. was so powerful because you could see in the people are paying attention to every single thing you're saying. You're saying an ideidis and you're explaining the painting and the mushel and they're really like listening. Years later, people some people come to me like they say, you know, I still remember what you said about the olive or something like something's just stuck, you know, that that kind of thing. But I think whe was so excited about it. I mean now thinking back might say excited. The Reb just was very like giving me braas for when you know when I would say I'm going and just give me this these mitzvah and stuff like that. I couldn't see the soal excitement if that's the right word but the Reb was appreciating how powerful this is and then these exhibitions were just amazing. Now I had a lot of anxiety because the the left brain stuff dealing with all this stuff is like really was very difficult many times and you don't know if you're going to sell anything and you know all kinds sometimes I didn't and this kind of stuff and just stuff um and there was a whole things about that too I guess or what I should do. Oh, I have I'm holding a answer from the rabbi. Um, so the first series of exhibitions I had I arranged for eight exhibitions for the pretty much newly founded Kabad houses down from Sacramento to San Diego in California. I don't know if there was many more than that at that time. We're talking about early early 80s. So I had things like these prints. I had very little printed art. I just had made some originals and whatever. I the first couple exhibitions I was selling like well for what I had and I just realized that they had everybody put out because I was going down almost every night another place they had put out um their invitations and all this kind of stuff but I didn't I I didn't have enough I I realized by the time I get to the next I'm not going to have hardly anything. You were doing so well you sold out, >> right? It's not like I brought that much. I just didn't wasn't think. So after college, >> I told you in the first to have a manager, >> okay, I don't even want to go there. I've had troubles with managers ever since. When I say troubles, trouble trusting them, which find one some you trust. I do have management. I do. I have an in-house manager. I have my son Moshi who's like making sure I don't sign dotted lines. I just show him any kind of like if anything it's above a certain amount of I mean I do have management I haven't I haven't and I there were times I hired a manager but things didn't work out I it's it's the Reb told Borak Nan the same thing he also had trouble it's it's not an easy thing for an artist to have a manager just telling you that >> maybe that's why they said it >> but I no I need one I but I sort of have have so I'm not and it's kept me from getting being taken advantage of so at least that's in other words if the reb hadn't done that I can't even think of what could have been in c certain circum circumstances I'm telling you [snorts] like artist people they just they can take advantage of many things and I some things that were like real money stuff >> so back to California >> yeah so I was like I started staying up late at night I started sketching things you know like I'm going to sell like I'm I'm trying to make more p come was ridiculous so Um, finally I hopped. So the next exhibition I I I told the people I need to exhibit this and I'll get it back to you. So at least I have enough stuff at the exhibition that people can order people can order the prints or they can order a custom painting or what? But because of that I had to go back and travel back and deliver all this. It was an absolute mess. I I lit I got sick from it. I literally got sick like real like I had to go to the doctor afterwards. Um and um so I wrote to the rep and I said it looks like it's a parasa but um like people are buying things but I'm I'm such a nervous wreck from it. Like what can I do or what can I meditate on that I can function better like and do the when I'm doing what this? So the Reb said here's here it says um it's in Hebrew but I'll just translate it like before each exhibition um um you should within that um give to Saddaka Kai times high cents 18 time 18 cents I never shared this amount with anybody until a couple years ago like just I don't know I just didn't it was like I didn't want to make an INR or something. Um, so I what it was it was like 8 time 18 which is 300 $324. So, um, that was one thing. Second thing was at the exhibit you should also place on the at the side. Unpl place on the table min at the side a sitter a tillum a kish and a pushka for sodaka and so by the way the not mentioned tanya here which later I was thinking about that the reason I think is because I think these things were like sort of I don't know what you call like protective things or some I don't know what but since I was already explaining all like I already >> you were the Tanya >> I fel and let's not say it like that but I felt like I was giving over time like I think because it's very interesting to me I I never really got an but that's what I was saying so um now this just I don't have time to go into it too much but there was it this many times before exhibitions I always find myself like getting all burn bent out of shape I would just give the seducka I would Oh, wait a minute. I'm sorry. >> I didn't Why is it not here? Oh, yes, it is. The first line I skipped it over that I also asked what I should meditate on, right? So, I was scared like maybe there was going to tell me learn this safer, learn that safer, this thing. And um I was waiting. That's a big question to ask. You know, it's a whole could be a hole to do. And all they ever answered, say all, but they ever answered was meditate on the hashk of I love that answer like wow have no idea what that's done for me. So um sometimes I found myself in the strangest or very very difficult situations with traveling things didn't work out or something happened or this or that and all kinds of stuff and I just stop and say brought this and sometimes you see it what something pretty soon and sometimes it could be years later something comes up and something and I've it's amazing and then I also what used to bother me was having these exhibition itions speaking about all this stuff and people walk out. Oh, that's very nice. They may even buy a painting, but where is the where is the muer? Where is where is them actually becoming a little more from or taking on a mitzvah, you know, and you can't get up there and start preaching and you it doesn't sort of fit with an exhibition, you know what I'm saying? A little bit, >> right? So, um, my whole thing was like to come in and through the back door a little bit, so so to speak, and then they get like they're they're looking at some mitzvah in a painting and then they realize in some subconscious level they're actually excited about looking at this decorated film or something, you know, but you hear the psychology of it. Where are we going with this? So, um, so maybe we should go. So, first of all, you have some more um >> like from the rabbi. >> Yeah. Well, I'm very interested. You have you have a few more of them here. You want to show me show me the mitzvah there. >> Okay. So, um >> did you start from the top? >> No, that's not there was no hero on that here. This one I remember there was a harra. Okay. But let me just explain that. So when I made a lithograph like something was hush of in the printing so it's going to go out there and people are going to see it you know like it's so I would send it into the reba and before oh I got smart after that thing would happen with the olive I sent it in like before I would print it >> right >> in case there were changes >> changes >> okay >> so I got smart yeah still trying to get smart anyway so um I I did that And then it was taking longer and longer to get an answer, but I had to get these things printed or I had due dates, stuff like that. And I did come to realize that the Reb was not going to start making comments on everything that I was doing. I was doing this so often, but that I think there was giving me a general thing like look, you're on your own, but you see that be careful like just make it more Torah digic, make it this, make it that. You know what I'm saying? It's like not it's not like something's tradition. Just just check things out. >> There's answers from the Reb that the Rebba said that it's come the time that I don't need a direct say that I just felt that that's what was happening. So I um and I didn't want to take the time and all that kind of stuff. So um but >> very interesting like um David Schol paper. So he he did Msiah Times and that whole thing he once told me he says you have no idea how many things that we have in there. We got the ideas from something in your children's books like there was a lot of things like that whole mitzvah train and stuff but you'll see that all over the place. So now you go into stores and you'll see mitz trains you know like you know for kids and things like there's a lot of stuff came from those things. Um, yeah, I should have patented some of that stuff. Anyway, whatever. So, this one is called before Shabas lithograph and um it's really like a herb job is layers of biking and they're doing whatever. So, um very vintage. So the Reb told me that um to add add another there's there's there's like there's even set up I just had like kdish cups and some around right said you should add a kdish cup and you should add I don't remember more a couple more like in other words there was there's two women and a child so the reb was like adding all what's needed for who's in the picture. Mhm. >> Um, but I always when I got an answer like that, I always took it like there's got to be something deeper. At some point I and I can't say exactly, but sometimes I think there was like adding to my family or give me a broken for a child or I something you're add like I I I could be wrong, but there's something there's just something with all these answers. Sometimes I feel like we're just not just stom. [laughter] >> Do you hear what I'm saying? >> Yeah, sure. >> Um, then this one I did this one. Now, this is a very very different style. And then look, life changes. You go through challenges. All kinds of things go on. Some if you're a real artist, your art changes, you know. So I at some point the the childlike stuff sort of I don't say childish the child like motifs you want to call it. So it's changed. So this is a very much more serious sort of picture and it's called the king's messenger and I sent this into the reb um uh missab is that the the right? >> Yeah. Um, I just sent it in because I wasn't even I didn't make these prints, but I just I just wanted able to see that I made this deep painting. Right. And it's basically from the Zohar that goes to the elocu. No, the migdal, I'm sorry. He goes from Elohim to the migdal havaya and then back to the elohim. That's something like with the >> and I basically meant that that that that is and there's the there's like the the town that he's a like a for this world right in where his is and he's receiving a bird with a scroll like he's receiving the teaching from the Reba the king who's you go higher than like higher than like from it's like connected to a puff like and giving him instructions basically. >> Mhm. And there's other things in here that are very deep and personal connecting things, but I'm just saying it's so then years later after before um when after there was a stroke and then there was in back of 770 and that it looked it was the same on the balcony the balcony and it's sticking out like that >> and someone like called me up and said they had this picture where they and they just said like it's your painting. It's your painting. Like it was just strange. It was just strange because I mean it was just a very strange thing to make even like that's how I made it, you know, like this balcony and it >> I'm not reading into it. I'm just saying [laughter] like right >> it's a very deep picture. But in any which case that was that um and um yeah I mean there may have been some other things. Um oh yeah so I sent an I made a whole series of greeting cards. They were just to be like note cards that like you know like a lady might write a thank you note to somebody or something like that. And I wrote you have to be careful what you write there. So I wrote in that I I'm making these greeting cards. I hadn't made them yet actually. Again, I put them out there in case there was some haro and I said and I'd like to have them printed in time for rashana. I hope I didn't write that because I wanted to answer soon so I'd have time to get them ready for rash, but that's what I wrote. [laughter] So, um, the Reb took that that I'm making rashana cards or something. In those days, people send out rashana cards, right? So there was one just flowers and there was said parakim like question mark like and then I forget the other one then and then said like better or something apple dipped in honey like everyone was mentioned these things for Russian I was so embarrassed so I didn't want to say these weren't supposed to be for Russian I didn't want to go the whole thing so I just I just took out my pen and I just created a whole bunch of Russash of >> [laughter] >> and did that. Um, I have a question for you. >> Yeah. >> Unless you're in the middle of a thought. >> No. No. Go ahead. >> Um, what did you have uh interactions with the other artists and what I'm thinking is on the one hand you have like Barak who was like um from outside that came in then you also have like the veteran Kabad artists like Hal Liberman and Zama Kleman. Did you have uh >> So I did. Um but it's funny like artists are not usually the most chummy with each other. >> They're just not. Um, and I remember I remember when I first of all was learning that Rashi and about the says to to you know, you know why God doesn't want you to eat from the tree? Because you're going to get the knowledge that he has. And and then it says there that craft crafts people don't they don't want to share their knowledge with the other, you know, like they're going to steal their right >> their their idea that they think is unique or something. They they came up with I thought, "Oh my god, that's so true." Anyway, so um there was always like a little bit standoffish thing of some sort, but on the other hand, you have something in common with other artists. So um Z and Climman Oliver Shalom if we bump into each other he would ask me where I get my art supplies from. We never talked about the heart [laughter] that kind of thing and before that >> one of the integral components of being aid are theim and whether it's orim these days give us an opportunity to connect with our to connect with each other and be better. What is the story behind [music] each of these days? How did the Reb commemorate and celebrate these days? And most importantly, what are the lessons, the takeaways, and the action items needed for each of these days? All of this and much much more are answered [music] in the new set recently published by Dher. Our days is a journey through the Kabad calendar in story, meaning [music] practice with over 700 beautiful glossy pages with elevated content, beautiful, beautiful photographs. You, your family and friends will enjoy and live with each. This book is a must for every labamature home, for every schul, for every school. It is a perfect gift item. This will not collect dust. It will be used day after day, month after month, year after year. You can have the set. Go to.org/ org/our days. Order your set today and start living with David. >> When I came to Cran I from Marstown, I um people told me there's these artists and and handle fat handle handleman all sham. So I decided I'm going to go visit. He was older then. Um, and he answered the door and he said, "It wasn't feeling well. I should come back another time." Something like it happened twice, but I didn't give up. And I went a third time. And he let me in. And I don't know if his English was so good, but in any which case, um, I brought similar type of things. I brought some my real detailed art. Show him. Um, but I came in and he took me into his back room where he he paints. I was blown away. There was nothing in the room. Nothing. I'm nothing on the wall, no furniture, nothing. There was an easel with one painting on it which would have the fiddler with this colorful spring tree blooming in the back like later when it was done. So, it was one of the things that you would see in a front cover of of one of the albums. Yeah. That kind of thing. But I saw it and when it was in the middle of being painted [snorts] and there was a little like chair, like a child's chair, wooden chair right next to it and on it was a palette with his paints and some brushes. Now, if you would come to my studio, it's like it's so cluttered and there's a billion things in there and I it's just like which is typical for like a messy artistry, but he had just nothing there but that fan. I thought, well, that's amazing. really helps to focus on the painting. You don't have anything else to focus on. Um, but he didn't really talk to me. I showed him I showed him what I brought him and he like I don't know what he just like went and [snorts] then he said he hand it back. He said you should go to art school [laughter] or go back to art school. I don't know. I didn't take it like a I wasn't about to do that and he doesn't know what's going on in art schools in the United States and how because I was there and all that kind of stuff but I think he's just saying you know they learn more you know I I know what it was but it was sort of funny so [snorts] um that was the end of that um [laughter] right then Nakshan so he did come >> which is another artist that really encourage >> Olam all these are Olc he paid for his his school incident >> like he did for like um Ellie Lipkirl or something for his music like that's that's that's says so much right >> visited his exhibition >> and then he he he asked that they he asked I guess it was Udo Quinc I believe to to make that he should have an exhibition downstairs and when that was being renovated but they made it whatever >> it was upstairs in the the offices but now it's the offices >> I don't think it was upstairs I think it's where I think it's was in the back of the vibrahaw. You walk where the plaza is >> in the vibersaw. There's a staircase to the upstairs to the offices. That's where it was. I think there was the cost showroom maybe at that time. >> I went to it. You know where you walk up the plaza? I think they had just built the plaza. >> No, no, >> no. They hadn't built the plaza. >> No, the plaza was built later, but there's so in the vibers. >> If you walk to the plaza now, you would call it the second floor. >> Yes. If you go in that >> Okay. So, that's where it was. >> Yeah. There's a you go in the vibr there's a staircase. >> It's there till today >> that goes higher than the >> that goes to the hallway of the offices. So that's where it was. There's a picture of the walking down that stairc or coming down about to come down that staircase. >> I don't remember that being that way but that's that doesn't maybe because it was not the same setup now that I'm getting confused. It doesn't make a difference. I I saw the exhibition. Um yeah, that was pretty amazing. Um so he came once to me and it was sort of a similar thing. He wanted to know how I did a certain type of thing like where I got my my like this like it's actually a wild fig bark paper. He wanted to know where I got it cuz like he wanted to try it out. It was a little I I I didn't want him to try it out because it was like it was so unique to my art. So I just made this whole thing a and I wasn't really lying. I just said, "Oh, you don't want to work with this stuff." Like the it soaks up the pains and it dries up and starts to ding. I had to go back and fix somebody's thing. And so he he's just like, "Oh, I don't want [laughter] >> talked him out of it." >> I talked him out of it. Um, let me ask you a question. Um, >> there's something with um, we also wrote once and they had an article about the cookbook. >> Oh. Oh, the >> the first the spice and spirit. >> Spice and spirit. I have a story about that too. >> Yeah, because your your arts on the front I believe, >> right? So I have a story about that the Reba. So So this was Esther Blle on. So she she was in charge of the cookbook, but there was other people involved a committee, but she was in charge of me. I was the illustrator and I made these black and white illustrations. And it took them, I don't know, a really long time to get this together. people weren't so sophisticated with these things. People had to know how to make a book. So, it really took a long time and just when they need she she sent me said I have two more recipes. It was that kind of thing. I would do a or something or some better holiday I would do an illustration bring it in. But this would been going on for I don't know couple years. They pay me for each thing like whatever it was not so much money and they we it's finished. So, I hadn't heard from them. So, I you know I said what's doing? Yeah. we're we're trying to get, you know, get get it printed. I said, "Well, what's with the cover?" So, she says, "So, the committee decided to go to some like um professional outfit in Manhattan and have them do a quote unquote professional cover." I You can imagine how I felt. I was like, I worked on this darn thing. It's all my illustrations inside for how I'm worried every couple years on this thing. like at least give me a chance. I said I said I'll tell you what I'll make a cover. I'm not going to charge you and then you compare the two and then if whatever if you want to use mine use mine if not you know I can't say anything I can't you know I can't argue with so who could say that's they were they were embarrassed to say no we're just not taking it. So if you want to do in your time make a cover. So I made that cover. >> So there was like six lays on the committees. So three of them really liked my cover and wanted to change it to my cover and not the cover that this whoever it was designed which was my opinion had not the hamish feeling you know it was little cold but okay professional right. So um I'm not knocking the ladies. I'm not saying I'm just saying like you know I'm an artist. There was involvement from the in this whole project. >> No. So what happened? So there was like six layers in the committee or something like that. So like half of them said this and the other said half. They were there. They were at a standstill. So what does the Kabad do is doing a cookbook and they they can't what do you do? You write to the Reb, right? So the Reb answered the Reb answered if you can use both then use both. But if you can't use both then better to use from our own community because even even in this there's a braha [clears throat] basically was saying use mine do you know how I felt I I felt like I felt so good um because they couldn't use both so it became the thing and and you know was like a nice hey m it fit the whole all the thing, >> right? Well, the cookbook is being used well. >> Yeah. >> Until today. >> Yeah. And people still have it. Then I did also the cover for the they had a version that was like it was soft cover of Pesak Pesak version. But the type of sensitivity of these things he had to deal with them. He had to deal with he was like no. And I didn't I did wonder why they ever said even in this as if like I think that was for them it was probably a stress like don't think that this is something you all that outside of considering like things not just oh you know what I'm saying I I think he was stressing them that take the there's importance in all these these these this this thing because this is a funny lesson even in this how do you read that >> how do you not follow even that even in this which means even in this like a cover for a book or something like that >> that there's there's a special I think meaning using someone from h I think it means even in this which you feel you need some extra professional something or other there is a brha from using something for even even if you feel it's not as professional maybe that's according to the way they were thinking >> right and the >> it came up very professional Right. Yeah. >> Um were you involved in other were there other from theb that you had involvement with the art? >> Yes, there was also I I think I was the first one when they ever talked about the the girls lighting candles. So, I don't remember if I did something said to add the third candle directly to me like for a picture or but maybe what I do remember is that I did do I did put the third candle to the right. I put the two candles and to the right. >> This was for what? This was for >> I think I'm not Don't I I would have to ask Esther Sternberg. So go on. She I did stuff for her for the for Nesk. Um >> I think that I remember she had a button in those days was from the 60s. Everybody still wore these buttons if you wanted to say something, >> right? So there was this button that like women and and doors light shabas candles. So there was this button. So um they made I it may have been that where I did it and the said the candle should be between the two. I there I definitely remember an answer that the candle should be between the two. The third candle should be between the two parents candles >> candles >> or the two larger candles. And I thought I always meditate in these things because it's it's very fascinating. It's interesting. And why did the reb say that? What's the what are you what are you to learn from that? Because you would think okay the mother is lighting the candles and the the extra candle does represent the girl so she'd be staying next to her mother on one side. But first of all that doesn't represent just a girl's candle. It represents children you know like light because you light more when you have more kids and stuff like that. But the of >> was that girls that are not married are light. So I guess so that's why >> Right. But when you're but when people are looking at Shabas candles and you're representing Shabas candles with a a candle in the a third candle that can be for a boy can be for a girl can be for the that the mother's lighting for a child or just the fact that the or any I took it like that children are have hushba from both parents equally and it's like that you know that kind of thing. There's just more to it. There's got to be more to it. I just thought of it. I didn't um there was Oh, another thing I didn't bring here, but so told me make subas, which I did. Um had them printed and then you know the sofa or rabbi would fill it in or I would have fill it in beforehand. So the reb I also felt a little bit tongue and cheeky. The Reb said, um, but I should not put an illustration of a mikvah because I have a mikvah in that great, not the great m. There was another painting I showed the Reb. And I and I talk about that. People can look it up in inside story, my story. If you want me to tell that too, people are listening, I'll go into that. But but that in that in that picture, that village picture, there's a mikvah under like a mikvah. >> Mhm. servant told me not to put I wasn't planning on it but not to put a uh a mikvah in the in the in the kuba >> right >> or don't put or don't even don't write a sign like to the mikvah mitsad sneas I wasn't planning on doing that but I guess I was concerned about that um >> this is right in the beginning or this is later on because I think you had this right away >> no it wasn't right away >> later on >> no early but it wasn't right um And that in the kassuba I asked if I should put the third candle and I said no in a kuba just put two candles. >> Mhm. >> Because they didn't have children yet and that's not that's not that's not what's going on. >> Interesting. >> Like all these things are very very interesting and there's haras there that would should have been followed differently. I just I'm not you know I'm not post I'm not going to tell everybody what to do but I mean there are these things um but just quickly because you can read about it but it's I did have this other picture called the the village of the mensh with like like these like these miniature yen and a big big big scene I also made a lithograph of that and the he notices in the bottom left hand corner where there was a a free loan fund and a um hospitality hotel. There's other things there. Picked those pointed to those two and said these are of and therefore they should be on the right side of the picture not the left >> because in the three pillars >> right to >> but they were saying even in the picture people looking at things that have to do with these should be on these part parts of the picture. I thought it was fascinating the um and then um on the right top it was in like a tree house or something. So they were davening and that's so that's a voda that's so therefore that should be in the left not the right and and of should be and limit of should be in the in the middle. So ever since then I I almost inevitably like even look for those symbols to put in somewhere either like a could be for you know it could be a pushka for you know you know sudaka on the right could be a shul you know something a sitter in the left and then or something like that in the middle and then I can talk about these things I'm showing people so it's like it's not just about >> it's about teaching >> was giving you the guidance and to how to utilize your art for the mission of spreading this guide through these then first is giving you accuracy about how to do these accurately but it's also part of the story of how to give over to I have to tell you as far as I can see it was pretty much a kesh I I before that was mostly for ceremonial things, beautiful spice box, this that and the other. And then then like the Jewish artists in like the [clears throat] last the century, whatever it was was Jewish scenes, you know, even like Fetter Hendle, it was Jewish scenes and there spoke about it like he was advertising theidic lifestyle, >> right? But to actually take an idea of a mushel and give it over in a mushel so that you could like ponder the concept. I think it I I I don't take credit for that, but I'm just like I I I I think it was a big I think the Rebel like um in fact here I'll show you something. This is something of the Reb. I mean, I did send one of them into the Rebbit, but this this was again sometimes and not always doing that on that level, but this is called Geffen grapefine. And I took this whole thing from a a Yiddish mime um geometry from the Fredba and where he says there's different parts of the of the of the grapevine and they represent different parts of the yidden to the eshk and I again it's like whimsical I took these like miniature people so I called them like this by here so I called the wise little people you know but means means to then you have like this is called like the ones who are at work like doing all the they're working. So that's like the amiratum the ever called it. So that's like the leaves where they protect they they're like they come they learn the sh from the you know that kind of thing and then you have the the the the whole branch they're called the supporters says there supporters it's written there somewhere supporters of Torah. So the the figure of us is they they actually hold up the whole thing by by you know providing the material needs and finances for the yeshivas and stuff like that. Then you have this little guy the kick which is you ever see in a grape vine this like little thing that sort of twirls around that's that never really became fruit. It didn't like it didn't fulfill its potential and he's calling these people rake. They're not really they're not fulfilling their potential. >> Mhm. >> And then he says how but we're unified. We're one people but you have to learn the minor but and there's other things in there too. So you can really if you that faked in time and stuff like that I mean it takes a little ingenuity but you can really it's basically to just just to give a basic thing that people want to go and learn the whole thing and you know that's it's just you know that kind of thing. What's this? Um, Pikyavas second. So, Perkyavas. So, this was a project which I was offered to do was to do the illustrations for um, Perkyos. Um, it's like a coffee table book. Now, what's so interesting about this is the commentary. It's not like maybe something. So, it's a commentary. Um but that's what they wanted to do. So what I did did was sort of snuck it in I guess you want to say is um and each chapter I did a full color picture and then I hired Elio Tower so langazant to and I explained to him what's going on in the picture with Berkyas and him with his knowledge he was able to point out things I even couldn't even see in the pictures. amazing and he wrote a beautiful like you know realis >> this is not a kabad publication >> and it's not they didn't know and then we we just you know put him and I don't know it's just really cool my mother passed away that year and um I had to go up to Albany where they they're printing these and signed 2,000 of them so they would and they put this like gold sticker on it that the first 200 were 2,000 autograph copies, you know, by the artist. So, um, and then I they gave me the couple copies and I'm coming home in this the the train or whatever. And that night was my mother's yard site and it's and it's in her memory. >> That's like really that was really touching. Um, after this came out and I was in Marstown for this Renaissance fair and I wrote had written about this because it came out and then I had all the originals at this Renaissance fair. You know these little booths, you know, like what are you going to sell? Maybe you'll sell some stuff. But I did. was my yes is yes is yeshiva and I went so um on Labor Day or something anyway so um I was there I wrote to the rabbi about the book came out I guess I sent a copy in something like that anyway I'm at this the fair and someone I think it was Rabbi Fchansi oh he comes out he says um Rabbi Klein or Rabbi called the reb's $18 for you give me $18 Like the Reb liked what was going and at that ex that thing some big gir who helped support the yeshiva bought the whole originals all the originals of the book. I probably undersold it like I always did but I but but it was a big it was a big thing a big thing. Yeah. But you know that that I realized looking back there was encouraging me with these things, you know, like encouraging me like move to more to do to more do more to more. >> Were there other of any other interesting um about your travels or anything that uh that we didn't cover? >> No, I mean I had to like there's some great stories. I want to make a book about it. Um, one of my sons said, "Look, I know you you're not going to get around and write a book. Like, try once a week, take one story and write it up and send it to your famil stories. It's a good, you know, that kind of thing." So, I could go on and on about certain things that happened. Um, they're gushmak. They're very gushmak but I don't know if we have time to go on to there's two or three that I would but there they take time you know because they have a storyline. >> Okay. So um what's the I I know I noticed also in later years you got into more they're called murals like the things that you like you do. >> No murals happen when they happen. They're they're big projects. Um, they always take me a lot longer than I would think. Um, I I did in the Jewish Children's Museum, >> right? And there's many kabad houses that have them. >> Not necessarily murals. Sometimes you don't realize that they're they're really like printed things. They're blown up on canvas. >> I'm talking about like the clay things. >> Oh, no. You're talking about Okay. Well, that's the But you're talking about the donor wall stuff, >> right? No, that became like like like a sort of breadandbut business for the schlookum with my artwork on it for donor walls, donor plaques and all that kind of stuff. Um, some of them some of them ordered really custom pieces which are really, you know, big things. Um, and others we made some products. They all have to be handmade though. So, >> right. >> I mean, I have workers that help me with that. with the ones that are the products. We've figured out ways to do that. But um it's that's also like it's just special. Um and knowing that you're that you're drawing out from people like the desire to actually donate because they want to have their names on something nice. It does make a difference. I've heard it and it does. So that's beautiful just to feel that I have that you know to like help in that way. Um I also if a calls me or comes to the shore they're collecting to go on I give them some art. >> I give them I pick out selections that are I have certain things I give that it's that that especially things that have like a lot in it that you could teach from it. >> Right. So that's my way of like say your your post. >> Yeah. And uh so I guess you know you mentioned the A freed interview but I guess it's a similar there's a similar idea here that the Reb wanted told you to use your godgiven talents and helped you throughout the way to channel that into Kusha. So it's like a very unique space. >> Yeah. But in a very interesting way was not just tell me I should like even said you should bring that's all he said the only thing he said about what I should do with my heart like nothing um but then just opened up my whole desire to um there had a way of empowering you but letting you letting you figure sort of figure it out yourself like it's in It's really when you going to back what we're originally talking about about the early Bouas but I'm not saying just early because anybody and anybody Ba not Bouva Yidden Yidden the Reban powered all of us that says you have you have there's more and that comes with the I'm not going to call it downsize God forbid to say that but everyone's very demanding whether you you know I mean in that sense every you know Like I don't know about you, but I just go through things like all the time. Oh, [snorts] I should have done more this should this like you always feel you're never really like doing anything close to what you know the blessing you have and the gifts you have. It's actually very frustrating but it's a big heart. You start like if it's if it's if that's getting if that's getting you to do something fine. If it's getting you just to get upset about it, what's the point? But nevertheless, I do have a struggle with a lot of that stuff. I really do. >> Should help. >> Yeah, I think you're right that the Reb has like this balance of knowing the greatness of the great things that you're accomplishing, but at the same time never to be satisfied and you know that there's so much more we can do. So, I think this is like a thing you could pat yourself on the back with one hand and push yourself forward with the other hand. >> Right. Even that it's hard to pat yourself in the back when you feel like the whole thing came from the rabb to begin with. But you have to be honest with yourself. Yes, you know, I could say, "Yeah, I was given a talent." And I mean, my gosh, I mean, what some artists do with their talent, you know, that that it it's just a big to have a talent, be able to use it to be macar people or just to just, you know, give a good feeling about, you know, idea. I mean it's a really huge huge thing. It's just very huge. >> That's the whole idea of that it's all the of the >> right >> but who is he using? He's not he's using a human being that has his own and his own talents and his own >> absolutely >> empowering that person. Yes, you're the >> Yeah. >> But you have you have to you have what to bring to the table. That's why you're the So that's and I think you're also an inspiration for other artists whether it's in art or other types of art to utilize their talents for for spreading script. >> Yeah, absolutely. But and and even in that like I feel one thing like I I feel like did I really give over to the like artists about things that I learned from the reboot or like because I I see a lot of arbitrage is like okay cool but again is it bringing someone to MSA like things like that I'm not criticizing I'm just saying that that I feel like I can offer them even more. I'm actually think I think things things to do I think of things to do all all the time. I should do this, I should do that. But I would like to have like seminars or here and there for artists. I mean I I ran three times the visual arts hockey. That was my idea. So eight this last one eight years before and then I did it once before. I guess it was eight years before that. Um, I started in just in my house at the time and I just, you know, just a bunch of the artists who were artists in Kite. So, I knew most of them and they come in like no, no one trusts like artists, they don't trust like what's going on over here like [laughter] and they're saying that guess next to someone he thinks he's an artist, you know, I could feel the vibes, you know, everything was funny, but I thought, wow, that's actually a purpose of this visual arts hockey like just like what can we have in common? What can we share with each other? with this then it went to a bigger one the I had in Rosaga and this last one I had I actually gave it over to motion at spotlight design to sort of run it more because it was was going on I I just for technical reasons I couldn't really get much of it together and it was really very nice and um I think most people walked away from that saying let's let's why don't we do this once a month you really are you know people can really network or help each other or just whatever. And I'm not saying they're all make they're trying to make a living at their art just but people are so invested in it for various reasons. Let's like use it to the best purpose that we can get out of it, you know, especially as like all the stuff I've been speaking about about, you know, taking ideas and and like encouraging other artists to do that and do it properly. When I say properly that because you can do all kinds of things with parables, but you have to sense sensitivity of course because it's representing a Torah idea. >> You hear what I'm saying? >> Yeah. Okay. case I think that's why the is going to give you many more years so that you can continue the and broaden it in a much bigger way than you have done until now. >> Amen. I mean what's nice is artists don't retire. >> They don't generally speaking. >> Okay. >> So I hope that you're I I take take your braha. I really appreciate it. I hope that um this will be inspiring for people who have any kind of talents at all. And that doesn't mean artistic or mu musical or anything like that or even creative writing or anything like that. I love listening to speakers and you can tell when they're creative or they're or they're they're themselves. They're unique on themselves and they let that come out and and just be and just be who they are. Everybody's different. So it comes out beautiful like it's just who they are, you know, their personality, this the way they want to their humor, anything like that. and just have confidence and um just do it. >> All right. [laughter] Just do it. >> Just do it. >> Okay. Thank you very much and really appreciate it and I'm sure everyone that will listen and watch will really enjoy this conversation. >> Right. Thank you.