Finding Balance Through the Elements | Miriam Pineles

Hello there. I'm Tanya Kazanov and you're listening to Human and Holy. Today's episode is a conversation with Miriam Penellis who is a doctor of acupuncture and Chinese herbal medicine and founder of conscious health and wellness located in New York. She's also the founder of Healing, which is an organization that supports Jewish women in their journey of healing from the wounds of child sexual abuse. and she creates healing retreats for women who have endured the unimaginable to care for them mind, body, heart and soul and aid and assist and support them towards their healing. She also has taught a kabura of Rabbi Nakman stories for years and years and years and years. Today we talk about the crossover that Miriam has discovered in her work and understanding of acupuncture and Chinese medicine and the teachings of the deepest teachings of Torah. How she believes that understanding the elements of the world can transform how we understand ourselves and each other, how we parent, how we love, how we tend to our own selves. She talks about learning Rabbi Nakman's stories and how it shifted things for her, her work within healing and so much more. You will feel from this woman the embodiment, the groundedness, the love, the sensitivity, the enormous beating heart in her discovery and exploration of casidis and how it shifted her life, shifts her clients and how she uses it in her work as a doctor of Chinese medicine and how she believes the wisdom can change the way any of us live. This is a fascinating conversation and a unique crossover. I'm excited to share with you. Miriam, welcome to human and holy. I am so delighted to be sitting with you here today. I was telling you that I'm selfishly excited to just get to hear from you, learn about you. You're one of those women that when I discovered you, I it felt like a discovery. Like where where has she been? like I am so grateful to have found you and I can feel like as I'm learning more about you and hearing from you and speaking to you just the sincerity of your spirit and how real all of this is to you and I'm very grateful to have the chance to sit down with you and to get to share that today. So, thank you for being here. Thank you for having me. It's truly an honor. I really appreciate all that you're doing in the world. I really enjoy listening to you and learning from you. It's a huge Khazuk and um thank you for this opportunity to share. >> My absolute pleasure. I would love if you could introduce yourself a little bit. Tell us who you are. >> Who am I? Um my name is Miriam. I am a mother. I am a Chinese medicine practitioner. I mean preparing for this talk, what what would what comes to me first is is just a a a young woman on a journey. um very very ble feel who feels very blessed and grateful um for all of it all pieces of it um that's how I see myself what I do um how I how I move through that journey is that um I'm blessed to be a mother and uh to be working in the field of Chinese medicine helping people of all ages heal >> from physical and emotional ailments. Um I see myself also as a teacher. Um because education and and teaching is a is a part of the journey. It's how we learn, how we grow. Um yeah, in a nutshell. >> In a nutshell. >> Yeah. And we're going to we're going to touch on a lot of pieces of who you are and what you do today. >> Okay. You mentioned how part of your own healing and work has been teaching and giving to other people. You teach classes inusman. You are also Are there any others that I'm missing? >> That's it. That's it. That's it. Most people don't even have to. Okay. So, that's a lot. You also really educate people on like Chinese. Tell us a little bit about what is Chinese what is Chinese medicine and how you find the connection point between >> the perspectives and ideas of Chinese medicine and the teachings of Torah and >> okay sure so um Chinese medicine is an ancient medicine thousands of years old and um it is the umbrella term for the components of it which include acupuncture, herbal medicine, um a type of massage Movement, meditation and diet therapy. So these are all components uh healing modalities I use in my practice. And when I was studying Chinese medicine, I had already been introduced to um Brussadus. So if you know Rabbi Nakman's work, you know Reban speaks about the pulse and the organs of the body which has very aligned and overlaps with Chinese medicine. So I had already had a little bit of that background when I went into the into Chinese medicine. But by my second year I think as I was learning the foundations of Chinese medicine which are the five elements >> of nature I was I was listening to um my teachers talk and I'm like this all sounds very familiar. I hadn't yet known that it was spoken about in Cabala. Like I didn't know about the elements, but I was listening and observing and and the way they were teaching Chinese medicine like this sounds like Torah. This sounds like the Jewish year. Um and I ended up writing doing my thesis on that like aligning Torah with Chinese medicine on the elements wheel and how it corresponds to the Jewish to the Jewish year. Um that was back in 200 maybe 2005 2006. >> It wasn't until 5 years ago that I when I started learning that I saw the elements in Torah. >> I had only known it as a Chinese medicine concept. Um and then I started to see it in the elements which are the foundation of creation which the Rambam talks about. So, we're talking about, we'll get specific for a minute. We're talking about fire, earth, water, and air. The Chinese have a fifth, which is wood. Um, so these were all elements of creation. They composed the physical universe. >> But, teaches, so too, just like the physical universe has these components, so so does our emotional makeup. >> We have all these elements inside us. they correspond to different organs and they correspond to different midos emotions that we're here to work on. Um, and when I found that out, I was like just it was just a beautiful blending like of life. Um, someone recently asked me, I get asked a lot, how did I be choose Chinese medicine? How become an acupuncturist? So essentially I had gone come come from studying in Israel for a year learning a little and I had come home to New York to be to what I thought would be be beginning graduate school in psychology but a friend of mine was seeing an acupuncturist and she said you have to try it come. So I went and um I was incredibly moved by the experience. I think my acupuncturist was a descendant of the Balanto. I think there's so much um so much alignment, but that's what I was told. Um but as soon as I hadn't didn't even have acupuncture yet, but the the way that the practitioner listened to me and then read my pulse, I I fell in love. I was like, "This is this is a a combination of all my loves." and I >> I switched gears to become an acupuncturist. >> Wow. And that how many years ago is that? >> That was in 2001. >> So it's been a it's been a long road, long journey since then. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So you found acupuncture then Chinese medicine. Now just a couple years back you really found the synthesis between the elements that are discussed in Chinese medicine and the elements that are explained through the teachings of can you dive a little bit more deeply into that those few elements what it means that we can understand our own makeup through those elements. So in in the there's four elements spoken of >> fire, earth, air and water. >> The fire is said Rebi speaks is corresponds to uh I think anger and conceit. >> So when you're when we have to work on our fire, we have to work on our ego, our our temperament, our quickness to anger. >> Do in Chinese medicine, this is associated with the wood and fire, the heart. Um, and then it has it has there's the physical consequences to not managing your fire, right? And then we know also emotionally, spiritually, there's effects of not working with our angular. Torah tells us not to get angry. >> So that's the fire element. Earth element um, Albre writes is associated with melancholy and sadness. So that's the mida of earth. It's a heaviness. I also learned a lot about the elements from the Bavi. So he wrote he has a whole series he has a book and incredible amounts of articles written about the tik amidos working on your elements. >> Can you tell us briefly who he is? >> Oh the author of Belvi Mishkan Evna Ravar Schwarz um who lives I believe in Ben Brock in Israel. Um, many are familiar with the safer that he's called by the Lavi Mishkan, but somehow I got to his others farm. I think just walking down the looking at the bookshelves in the bookstore and I found this one. I think it's called getting to know your soul and it goes through the four elements and how you have to understand them. So the earth element is melancholy, heaviness and sadness. So too in Chinese medicine um it's related to it's related to worry and and sadness as well. It's related to the digestive system. But in Torah we're meant to tr we have to transform the sadness into joy. >> Right? So it's so validating when you know these concepts that each of us is made up of all these elements. We all have all of them and each of us has one or two dominant. Right? So if a person is a dominant earth element and this you there's a way to to figure out you're going to have a challenge maybe for life with sadness and heaviness. M >> sometimes people call it laziness but you're because there's more earth in a person they're heavier so they're slower to move so to so sometimes they get and this is what I talk about in my parenting course we'll get to it but kids who get called lazy like it's those these kids they just they have a ton of earth that needs to be worked on and transformed and the way we can see them and address them will change their lives and what they think of themselves but I'm digressing So, so to know within oneself like okay I have a lot of earth like when I get sad like there could of course there's there there's reasons and there's a there's work we do on ourselves and our and our pasts and presents but also okay I it's harder for me cuz I have more earth >> the transformation into joy is going to be harder for the earth element versus the fire who's quick to transform quick to rise It's in their nature. It's in their bodies. >> Um, >> water, >> water, water is associated with pleasure in Torah. It's also Torah is water. I mean, >> it's endless. The the the cat the what you can align with each element, what it's composed of, but inus the water element is is regulating our pleasure and like channeling it into holy spaces. And um air is speech. So how we use our breath, how we use you know using our speech for good. >> This is something that the alter talks about in the Tanya really understanding the makeup of your soul through these four elements. >> Yeah. >> And this is not something that I've seen so many do so many do in such a practical way. It makes sense that coming from your background in Chinese medicine, you see how much richness there is to those divisions of a person's soul. I'm curious to know how one could go about discovering which element is theirs and how to begin to find balance in the elements within so that they could show up with more balance in all elements of who they are. >> Sure. Um I'll I'll say it and I I'll also say it's it's it's amazing knowledge to have not just for transforming yourself but for obvious we can step we can for me it was a way of stepping out of judgments >> because you you understand more where things are coming from >> and then you have an opportunity to judge favorably I think. >> Yeah. >> But um where can you learn this? Several places. So from a Torah perspective, the Bavi makes it very clear in his safer getting to know your soul. Think in Hebrew it's because the elements are the components of the nephesh aspect of the soul. >> So getting to know your nephesh is knowing your elements, knowing your emotions. And the Bavi writes it very clear. He even gives practical guidance on what to do if you're a fire element, what you should do to help balance it. >> Um that's one place. Another place are um there's two books that were written for parents um by Chinese medicine doctors that also will go into the elements from a physiological and temperament perspective. Very helpful. Um I teach about it um to women in the community. Um and then if you go online to the bovi.net And that is numerous numerous articles on the elements. It's endless. The learning is endless. >> Yeah. >> Can you give an example of one of the elements and showcase one activity or one modality that a person would do for that element to find balance just to give us a little taste? >> Sure. So if a person let's see so a fire element >> Okay. who could be quick to anger. >> Um, who might also be quick to anxiety because it's connected to the heart energy. >> What balances so in ch in the Chinese medicine wheel, what would balance that is the air. So using using speech in a positive way, whether in prayer or affirmations would be a way to soo the heart, calm the anxiety, um, help tame the anger. M >> um also the water element would do that would the water is the counter of fire. So um deep rest um deep comp like contemplation thinking before acting would also tame the fire. Beautiful. >> Yeah, that's a very interesting depiction and you can see how grounded it is. Meaning when you discover what your element is, there's a real path to we don't have to be victims to our natural makeup. We can work with what we have. Yeah. Yeah. And body work. Like there's also sometimes like you'll try everything. You'll change your thinking, you'll you'll be domining, you'll change your diet and it's still not enough. Sometimes you need more intervention, more hands-on intervention, literally like, you know, healing body work >> to help balance you to give you a chance to do that kind of work. You shared with me that you found Rabin Aman's teachings through your own search for wholeness >> and then you also found through your own search for wholeness a couple years ago. >> Yeah. >> Tell us a little bit about that path to how you discovered the deeper teachings of Torah Torah through >> Yeah. How did I find there? Yeah. >> It's really amazing. I was because I was raised um in a modern Orthodox school system um and didn't >> I don't think I knew much of then even though my grandparents ancestors are um were steeped in it. Um, and what happened was I was uh married um a few years and trying to have my to have my daughter and I was searching and a friend of mine at the time was immersed in breast of casidus and she influenced me started introducing me to things some writing some teachers and I ended up at a shir by Moa Raal Silber who is a teacher from this from Woodmir who now lives near Shallay. She was giving a shir about to Helim and King David right and the journey of King David and the the journey of we all have our trials tribulations and she somehow mentioned in the class and by the it was almost like an aside I think she said learning Rabbi Nakman stories brings Yeshua >> reading Rebi Nakman stories brings salvations and she said you don't have to understand what you're reading you just have to read it and she would say how sometimes she would just recite them as if they it's file. And so I heard this and I thought a light went off in my brain. I need a salvation. Um, let's do this. It It's like it came out outside of me. I don't know how I thought to do it, but I I gathered a group of women in my neighborhood who I knew were all looking for their own salvations. Two of my friends were waiting several several years to have children. >> Um, one was trying to make aliyah. Another one was looking for a job. I gathered us um we gathered in someone's home and then we needed a teacher. So because we didn't know what we were doing. >> Mhm. >> So we there was a there's just so much hashkah so many details. There was a a family visiting from Israel, a breast of family in the in our shul and he the the husband was teaching the moran to the men. So I thought let's ask him. So we asked him if he could lead us in. He said I have something better for you. Which was his wife. >> His wife. Um it was you know learned knew the but also was a psychologist and so she came her name is Tali Kahana and she came and um she taught us how to study the the stories. Now Rabbi Nakman's stories he said about them he said he wrote them to wake people up. He said you know most people write stories to put people to sleep. I wrote these stories to wake people up, right? To awaken consciousness, to awaken us to our soul selves. So, she told us, let's read them. We're just going to read a paragraph or a page or two and I want you to see what comes up in you >> when you read them because ribbon was. So the stories on the surface might look like a fairy tale, like a story, but they are deep, beyond, out of this world, cabalistic, incredible creations, right? So how does someone like me open it up and merit merit salvations? How does that happen? Um, and what's what's also really interesting that that Rabbi Nakman said is that or what I learned is that he that Rabbi Nakman saw that the his deep texts his his Torah writings weren't I think doing enough for Yidden. He and that's when he wrote the stories. We needed we needed it in a story version and I understand it now even more why >> because how because healing is so delicate. Waking up is a very vulnerable, delicate um sensitive journey and somehow it's like the story makes it not only accessible the stories but it's like a medicine. It's like it's like a an anesthetic almost like I'm going to show you who you are. I'm going to show you the work you have to do, but I'm going to do it like in a story like like for a child and it's going to go slow and the stories are so complex that it takes so much time to unfold them and um and that's what happened. So I think yeah in our first class we read the story, we read a few pages and immediately I was something showed up for me. It showed me exactly what my work was going to be for the next um probably 15 years. I'm still in it. That's how I got to Yeah. >> And so now that continues that that began probably 14 15 years ago and it continues today. >> Same women, >> different groups of women as each of us has maybe moved cities, countries. >> Right. Right. >> But it goes on. Oh, I love how you expressed how it's a delicate thing and because it takes time to understand the complexity of the lesson, it gives you time to be ready to receive the truth of what you need to face. That is such a deep way of understanding why it takes us time to study and understand and how maybe the slowness to comprehension is a gift. >> So, we can like slowly wake up >> and yeah, seeing what it stirs inside of you at every point. I think about that the fact that because Ty is truth, no matter what level of truth you get to experience, it's going to do something for you and you can be patient with how that is released in your life. Yeah. You hopefully learn to be patient. >> You what you patience is a learning too. Tell me, >> you're saying to be patient, but like let's say, you know, people maybe such as myself like so eager to finish or like like you could you could read a paragraph of the story and spend the next two hours discussing it, >> but there's such a desire to get to the end of the story to see what happened. Right. >> Right. >> But >> it's like they it's also like a nervous system regulator. The stories they slow you down. >> They slow you down. >> Don't jump ahead. You have to un unpack >> right >> one thing at a time. Yeah. >> Yeah. Well, I'm also thinking like pat patience and that transformation. You're talking about learning these stories because you're looking for salvation. And anyone who is learning and we want transformation, we want healing. We want redemption. We want a new world. We want a new life. It's not an overnight process. And so to say like these are slow release truths. They don't it it doesn't it cannot to be you cannot be transformed overnight. >> Not completely. No. >> Not completely. But do you think in ways we can be? >> Absolutely. >> Yes. Okay. Tell me. >> Yeah. Because every time you read like if you sit in a kabura maybe you'll join us one night. You can't you can't not be changed by it's light because Torah is light Torah or >> so much light and and and love and comfort that comes through. So yes, you can have a shift overnight if you >> if you allow it. Beautiful. But it it will take it could it could take years, tens, 20, 30. I sometimes 50 years. Everyone has their their time. What was your shift? >> I mean that first day, that first class was a huge shift in my journey when I um when something very deep awoken. >> Mhm. >> Um and then I had another major shift also along the way when you're reading Rabbi Nakan's stories, you're learning his advice for life through the stories too. So you're learning about concepts of hypodus, you're learning about you're learning about confessions, you're learning a lot of how to live through them. >> Mhm. >> I would say the next oh shift major shift happened um how many years later? Uh I guess maybe eight or so later years later. Um after my divorce and I I started learning more about Hashem brought it to me. I >> So how was that? It was also a slow it's like a slow dripping. So how did it start? It started because a woman came to see me from Crown Heights in my practice at the time. I was working in Manhattan and she would come to see me for treatment but every time she came she brought me a book. or the Revy or something for my daughter onus every time just a little and in the beginning I didn't understand like what I understand now or years later but it was just warmth and care and love from a stranger and it's like I if I look back it was slowly melting my heart like opening me >> to then dive much deeper into the eventually but it started with a really kind person who wanted to share >> share it with me. >> What was the first idea that you learned that shifted something for you or that touched your heart? >> Inabaras. >> What was the first thing? >> Can you think of it or an idea? >> No, I know what it is. >> Oh, you do know. Okay, tell us. That's exciting. >> So many amazing things. But I'll tell you what really shifted it. I have a cousin. and I have loavish cousins and um I was communicating with them how I don't know why but every year on my daughter's birthday is tinged it was it was tinged with a little bit of anxiety and worry and pain and one of them said to me like all these years later it was probably eight maybe she was 9 10 years like all these years later you're still in pain over I had a very traumatic birth that um you know really left a mark. So they're like you're still worried you're still in pain about that. I said yeah what do you like and I had done therapy I did all the healing what can you what more can you do? So the this cousin said to me, um, write to the Rebi about it. And I said, what? Write to the Rebi about my trauma, my traumatic child birth. And they're like, yeah. I said, I don't understand. I thought you write to the Rebi or go to the OA when you need something, when you need a shak, when you need a parasa, like I thought you just request things. Said, no, the Rebi wants to hear everything. And that changed my life. that changed my life that it was like there was a sadic a person who cared about every single detail even yeah even your that that event that's very important of course write about it >> and that's what I did I sat down at the table a table and I thought I was going to have to write for hours about this trauma and everything I went through it was going to be 20 pages long like I resisted it >> but I sat down I lit a candle and I started writing the details every detail of it cuz that's what I was instructed to do. It was no, it was less than two pages. As I was writing, I was healing already. The the heaviness of the experience was already being lifted from me. >> By the time I finished the letter, it was gone. the pain that was associated with that time with her birth like that that I could feel still was gone and it has been since this was four years ago I did it now when her birthday comes I can meet it with joy um and I don't think about about that really difficult experience I went through um and since then that's what I do I go I write to the about everything and Um, it's an it's an incredible healer. There's always someone there for you and and anyone who does this knows what I'm talking about. That was a tremendous shift. How do you understand that experience? What happened in writing that allowed you to release? >> I think it's like what happened was it's like it's a certainty. You're not alone. >> Okay. >> There's someone there with you in facing a very difficult thing. Because I when I tell people to do this, I'll instruct patients even they don't they can't a lot of people can't do it. It's because to face a trauma to face pain is so terrifying. It's terrifying >> to be alone in your room to do that. But when you develop a when you have a connection with the sadic and you trust you know for certain you're not alone, right? And there's that this steady presence. you're being held and because you're being held by someone you trust, right? It's safer like and the Rebi has said about himself, leave your leave it with me. It's okay. I have a I have a story about that too that I love. But I think knowing I'm being held, validated, and seen. Something that I've I've learned for myself and from other people I've met whether Labavich or who have healed through is that or what and what I've noticed is that pain is not denied. Actually, everything I've read, letters of the Rebi, pain is acknowledged and and seen. And that's what um any survivor of trauma needs. They need to be validated and seen. and someone to say yes I know it's true it happened and that'll not that is enough to release >> wow that line that you said leave it with me >> is so powerful like to have >> that experience I'm just imagining to actually meet someone who says leave it with me like I will carry it for you >> yeah can I tell you where I learned that Yeah, please do. >> It's hanging on my desk at work. >> What is >> this story? >> Okay. >> There's a story about a couple who came to the Rebi in 1970, early '7s. They had been trapped behind the Iron Curtain and longer than others had fled. And they came with their daughter to seek a counsel about where to live, where to put their daughter in school. And there after a few minutes they were guided where to go, where their daughter should go to school. And then the wife said to the Rebi, "After all that we've been through," "My husband carries a lot of baggage on his heart." And the Rebi said, "I'm not going to I have the story with me if you want the exact words, but um the the words were basically the Rebi answered, tell your husband he can leave his peckle here. Um, everyone leaves their their baggage here. And don't worry about me. It won't hurt me. Everything here gets shredded. Wow. So again, you see that love like I got it. You can leave it here. And the connection to Hashem of like I'm not going to hold it. It's not going to hurt me. It's going to be it's being taken care of. >> Yeah. I'm giving attention. Wow. It's incredibly powerful. >> Yeah. And I think sometimes that's just enough. Someone who really sees and cares. >> This is something that you do in your work for others. Couple years ago, you started medical retreats for survivors of child sexual abuse. women specifically. >> Yeah. And when I was reading about your work, it really struck me that that's actually the energy that you bring to it, which is you stating that the personal redemption and gula that a survivor is looking for and seeking and that you want to help them achieve is part of a collective redemption healing >> and you are supporting people in their individual journeys and pain because it's not just theirs to carry. It's all of our responsibility and it's all of our it's all of our healing. >> Tell us a little bit about that work. >> Okay. Um that retreat is called the Iron Healing Retreat. Um I started after October 7th. >> Mhm. also inspired by all my studies inus and holistic healing >> and um I came to it through my own healing of 30 years a 30-year journey of healing and awakening and I felt so blessed for all the 30 years of work I had done and all all the the healers, practitioners and theidas I learned to get me to the a point where I had felt I had arrived. I I was awakened and present and confronted very dark things. And in say like this uh is all about getting to the aspect of soul, right? So when October 7th happened and the news emerged of what transpired >> Mhm. not just to women but to men too of this n nature of sexual abuse. I didn't know what to do with myself because I I literally it was only weeks prior that I think it was I think I was walking into Russia Shanosukas with such gratitude for the healing I had been able to do and then I heard about my brothers and sisters being hurt and terrorized and I didn't know what to do with myself. I didn't know what to do and I didn't want to lose God. And everyone around me it felt like was becoming anxious and insomniacs and I couldn't afford to do that because first of all I fought my way out of that and then I couldn't afford to do that. I'm a mother supporting my daughter like so I went very deep inside myself and I and I said I Hashem I'm not I'm not losing you now with this and through very deep uh a lot of prayer and contemplation >> he came to me to do this retreat and I wanted to um and I felt like if we could keep healing us and our this I chose women for several reasons But if we could what came to me when October 7th happened and I thought okay what's the message here what is the me what is the message and what came to me is we have a lot of work to do >> here >> healing us the Jewish women who are survivors um and um I decided to create this retreat and to give back and to give to women what I uh was gifted in my life. So, holistic medicine and as the means of healing >> this very um this very deep wound and I I I wanted to do it because I think it's the fast track. I think when you bring the soul and Torah into the healing, it's not just I I think it can accelerate healing. And I think like I said before, it's an anesthetic of it's a medicine and it gives a person a life while they're in the dark. You're still um doing your spiritual aoda. You're still you're still in a life while you're doing a healing. And I think it it pulls a person through the journey. So, um that's that's what it was. Um and so within um October seing July of October 7th was the first retreat. We've done three since um we've had so we had 13 women on the first retreat as a 4-day program where they had daily prayer and classes and they had yoga and nutrition and therapy and it was it was just beautiful. It was very impactful. I mean, I don't know how much you want to hear, but um I felt it was a way to help us in the now and to help our brothers and sisters in Israel and move us out of this war and more into gula. >> It's an incredible way to channel that pain that you felt. And I love how you said, "I couldn't afford to become anxious. I couldn't afford to become an insomniac. I had to take this energy of brokenness I was feeling and channel it into helping >> in some way that I can. >> Yeah, I've that's that's how I think I've always coped >> action. >> Not in a denial way, although perhaps it was there's only so much a human can hold. >> Yeah. >> So, I couldn't hold the news or anything that was being reported. I had to just I had to do. >> That was something that you shared with me that I mean we talk about how when you give you get so much more than you give. But you spoke about you spoke to me about how when you teach you you breathe you move you speak holy words. You move energy through your body. Like there's something actually innately medicinal about channeling our pain into contribution to others. >> Yes. >> Tell us about that. >> Yeah. That's great. I love that how you said that. Um, yes. So, I'll get So, to say that is to get a little technical again with the elements. So, the fire element or in Chinese medicine is really wood and fire. This is associated with the heart who's feeling everything. Okay. And the mind, but also the liver organ. Okay. The liver organ. Taurus speaks about the liver. It's the heaviest organ of the body because it's holding all the one reason it's holding all the emotion. And it's holding a lot of blood, but it's holding all the emotions. >> And a lot of emotion in life, unfortunately, gets stifled and repressed for various reasons and and then leads to, god forbid, sickness and many symptoms in the body. On the elements wheel, the element of air is what guides and balances that energy of the liver and the heart. Air is speech, prayer, um teaching, guiding, giving over spirituality. And it's like breathing air into the liver and fire organs >> and letting them heal. You're getting more oxygen, more blood flow into those areas and there's an expansion that happens. So all that was stifled and repressed starts opening up. More blood flow, more energy, more emotions >> and there's an expansion that's happening in the body. So the physical symptoms will go come down >> and then there's an emotional experience what was stifled is unpacked >> and I think spiritually the liver will also represent ego you start losing the hold of the ego becomes less and less humility comes you become closer to Hashem you become closer to your community to your nation and it's it's a transformative of experience. >> Can you can you expound on that point that that's how you access humility that that helps you let go of the ego? What is it about the outward giving that >> Well, um I guess so get the intention has to be there, right? So if you have this intention, you want to teach, right? Then you have to look at why am I teaching? Mhm. >> Um, and this is where when you when when you're immersed in and you're connected to sadikim, it helps a lot to to strive for humility. Um, to understand why you want to be humble, right? Because to be humble is to be closer to Hashem. >> To be close to Hashem is the ultimate joy and comfort. >> So, um, so how does that happen? I think like I said so the this liver there's we have this ego we're human and holy right as you say this human part of us has we have this ego who wants to do things who wants to teach a certain class who wants to give over this information and it's beautiful but we also we're holy too so we have to align and make sure that we get to choose I should say we get to choose to say well what does Hashem want how should this come across what is the purpose >> how am I going to impact people. That's the air element impacting it, the spirituality. And the more a person can bring Hashem into their work, into their teaching, the more the ego falls away. >> Just like adding more light to the dark, >> to the denseness. >> Yeah. Does that make sense? >> Yeah. that it reinforces the personal experience of the nishma and of Hashem. >> Yeah. >> In your identity. >> Yeah. So, you're letting Yeah. That's beautifully said. You're you're empowering more the soul over the ego. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And a lot of women will I've heard several women say to me like, "I wish I could teach this. I wish I could put this book out." M >> and they don't want to because oh what will people say or or they don't feel their intentions are good enough but that's another thing I learned from Kabad if you know olive teach olive you must >> if you have a gift you must give it >> yeah the world is waiting for it >> yeah needs it >> when you talk about Torah and being the fast track to healing and that this is why when you create these retreats for women who have experienced extreme deep wounding you see aidus class or prayer learning Jewish mysticism as being a core part of the healing process. What do you mean when you say that? What do you think that the wisdom of Torah has to offer that's unique that is necessary in this healing process? >> It's a big question. >> Yeah. You answered it with what you said before which is firstly I empower the soul more so I put more more emphasis on the soul than the physical body and that has infinite power because it's connected to Hashem. So that's one way by increasing my prayer and this is this was the path I chose. So I just share it as an offering for people. But the more prayer, the more Torah study, the more I'm amplifying and awakening to my nishama, my soul self. I realize I am so much bigger than my body or the things that have happened. >> And I'm connecting more and more with Hashem with sadikim. And it's like an armor gets built. A person becomes strengthened. They become more spiritual. And there's less there's more empowerment and therefore less fear over facing very hard things and darkness. It's like armor and fuel. And if I think of Torah as spirituality and as breath, it's something we need every day. Every day um is to engage in prayer. And it's hard for people in healing sometimes to go there. They don't feel it feel like it they feel um it's too painful and I understand I understand but to some to but to take a leap and some aspect of spirituality whether it's giving teaching if prayer is not possible will it will automatically as we've already described change the physical body and the emotional body and the spiritual body >> um I think Torah offers there's a lot of comfort. So some so one thing I did in my healing journey in the last four years is I started doing rightabad like custom learning the Torah portion of the day reading the talm of the day learning the tanya of the day that became almost a lifeline at times of and a way of aligning with the spiritual world no matter what's going on >> in the physical world and and the alter said live with the times. So you're being guided through the the Torah portion of the day. You're being guided by the tanu portion of the day. It's giving you what you need to to to meet the challenges and opportunities of your day. >> So I found that to be very empowering also. Um there's so much comfort in um or sometimes as Raban teaches just sitting quietly with God is enough. But these but what you can get from God you cannot get from from medicines or healers and those are important too but it's um like I said earlier it not only helps the process but you get to live a life in your healing. >> What do you mean by that? Meaning life doesn't have to stop cuz this cuz cuz healing things especially childhood traumas could take years and life doesn't have to stop in the process. Every week you have Shabas every week you have an opportunity to rest and to to get to know your soul self. And then I think that's what it gave me is like there's so much it showed me there's so much more to me >> that's that's magical and wonderful and expansive and makes life better and even makes healing better and doable and really practically too like like >> Mhm. >> another thing that saved my life. I used to not be able to sleep from anxiety. someone introduced me to that. I decided to put my trust in it and I I remember saying to God one night, I cannot continue this. I must sleep. I have too much to do. I'm giving it over. I'm saying this and I'm going to sleep and and I sleep great >> ever since. And you need sleep to heal. You need sleep to be to be strong. So so many examples >> those words that you used armor, fuel, comfort to be able to face the harder parts of our lives without fear. >> Yeah. >> Are such beautiful is is such beautiful language for what the Tyra provides in that experience of healing. And also Shabas has that built-in experience of rest where exactly where you are is enough that you don't have to be defined by the work that you're doing or need to fix, but you can just re be and rest with Hashem. Yeah. And really practically too like in trauma healing for people who who are in it who are watching you need a lot of sleep. You just you need that you need to stop >> one day a week and sleep and sleep. When you say healing, what do you mean by that? Because it's one of those really uh popular words today and I think different people define it differently and mean different things by it. And it's it's helpful and interesting to hear how you define what it means to heal and to be on a healing journey. And what do you mean when you say >> wow >> in your healing? >> Good question. So firstly I'm I'm talking about um wounds that need emotional physical wounds that need healing >> particularly when childhood traumas. >> Mhm. >> Because that's been my experience and most of the work I do in my clinical practice. So healing is is is there is is a lot of emotional healing. >> Uh physical healing too because it will impact the body as I learned also from the revi the body and the soul are interconnected. So the body's healing along with these emotions but healing is also when we speak I guess healing I also think of awakening and spiritual awakening and there's a tshoua process happening if you choose it. So there's a spiritual work. We're all reincarnated souls here on a with the journeys of things that we're we've been brought here to fix. So I I see that as healing too. Working on my midos, my emotions, my anger, my judgments. That's also healing. >> Healing that part of me. um finding finding ultimately looking for like balance and peace with with life. If someone is within that experience of facing deep wounding either from their past or current experiences, emotional imbalance, struggles in their life in that area and direction, wanting to experience this healing that you're describing through the Torah, but not necessarily feeling that they're finding it, feeling that the only paths of alleviation for my struggles have been the medical world, my therapist, my um whatever other wellness practices I do like that's where I found relief. That's where I found wholeness. That's where I found peace. And people tell me that there's healing within Torah, but I try to listen to classes or try to study or tried to lean into it in my Jewish space and I'm not finding it. What would you say if someone's having that experience? I would say don't give up because if this is if the person has a Jewish nishama, it's it's in them. I would say to do what I learned to do in the very beginning of my path which was to start seeing what is ch bringing up in you >> because every person is unique. So maybe they're not resonating with what's coming from a particular teacher or a particular commentary to find if they can't find the person they want to learn from, start doing it, reading on their own and seeing what comes up because surely they'll find it. They have to. I love that so much. that concept that you brought at the beginning that your teacher taught you that this is how you learn Rabbi Nman's stories and sharing this for someone who's struggling to find that personal wholeness within Tyra to say study and ask what does this bring up in me cuz I think that very often we disassociate when we enter into a Jewish space or Torah space yeah we're not there could be robotic >> yeah mind right so it's bringing the mindfulness in >> and you know why it works also I realized Because if it the to if if it if the truth is Hashem, Torah, and Israel are one, right? That's a that's a truth we hold. >> Yeah. >> So if I if a person can't access it in Torah, something's blocked. >> So it could be that there's there's deeper healing that needs to happen to unblock like and that's what happens when I ask myself what's showing up in me. >> Mhm. I get to look at what's blocking maybe the layers >> and when as you said when if you read something and it's bothering you on a personal level then that's also a signal of where to look >> within yourself. >> Yeah. >> So the Tyra and the the the struggles you have with the Torah can be your own path to discovering your own blockages. Yes. And I think that that's we usually see that as problems to be fixed as opposed to important things to listen to. >> Yeah. So we take like right taking the judgment out of it. >> Yeah. >> And and remembering the Balento who taught everything that is is shows up for you is for you. >> Yeah. So whether it's frustration with something a person has studied or feeling blocked in prayer, >> it's there's a reason. There's something for you to learn. >> And it's not that you did anything wrong, >> right? >> It's just something for you to learn, something for you to explore there. >> Or that you're inherently disconnected or that there's no place for you within the Torah or that you're too cynical to study or >> impossible. Impossible. >> Impossible. When you say it's all for you, what do you mean by that? Can you expound on that idea? >> That's what I learned that the Balent taught is whatever is coming to you, every conversation, every um person you meet that day is is for you for so for example um and I really implemented this with parenting, right? So anything that a child is moving through that you find particularly the mother finds particularly challenging this is for the mother. It's not just about regulating the child. There's something that you as a mother has have to look at and transform >> and not again in a way of like you did something wrong and you you got to shape up. It's like to grow. Yeah. Like there's some of that, but it's also how do you grow and become into your fullest most beautiful soul self >> in that relationship or in that profession or in what the work in your community >> to always ask what do I have to learn and sometimes what I've learned is sometimes the learning will bring me to to change myself work on myself sometimes it will bring me to shift how I live my life. Um, and that's also healing >> because when I get when I can get very clear about where I'm supposed to be, how I'm supposed to be communicating, where my energies should be put, that's going to be healing. I'm going to be conserving and coming deeper and stronger in myself. >> Yeah. So really listening to what it's bringing up for you and recognizing that it's it's it's an there's a deeper reason why it's coming up which I think is very helpful because very often in our culture we go to symptom control >> and when you talk about parenting very often it's it could be about managing behaviors and just ensuring many many people like many philosophies can go to that direction as opposed to saying if it's really bringing up something deep within That's not a mistake. There's something to be done here as opposed to just trying to create a more peaceful home environment. There's like inner work around >> definitely. And the inner work is take is is for all of us. It's about getting us to our hearts. Okay. >> And having a heart connection with ourselves, with God, with our kids >> with Torah. That's right. That's the the pmas of Torah. I I have to get to my heart >> and get on and I I speak about this. I think the more challenging children >> are here because they're pushing the gula on a personal level and I and more but they push the parent to become a deeper more heartfelt person. >> Wow. That's the challenge >> for someone who's very as you said everyone has a different element as their as the core of their soul and some people live more cerebrally and some people are naturally more attuned to their heart. If someone is is a more like logical or mind centered person, is there do they have to shift to being heart-c centered or is there some is there >> I mean like some people are naturally more intellectual, some people are more heart-based and passionate. >> So how does does everyone need to be heartbased in the way you describe and what does it look like for someone who is more cerebral to become more heartbased? >> So I don't know cuz I don't think that's me. So, I can't speak for that experience, >> but it's a great question and I'm not going to say anyone needs to do anything. I think we have these it's an opportunity. Okay, you get to go deeper into your heart and live a joyful, loving, deeply connected life, which I think ultimately is what everybody wants. But um for some several reasons um can't always um access >> right >> so do they need to I don't know what what's happening in their personal life or professional life is it is it needed is it warranted >> for peace in themselves peace in their relationships my life changed my relationship with my child changed when I took on this approach of going deeper Well said. So it's it's something How are your close relationships going? How is your work going? How are you? >> I mean I I transformed. I mean I my life transformed. So there's more peace in my body, >> physical body. There's more peace in my relationship with my child. >> There's more effect clinical effectiveness in the treatment room. >> How interesting. when I come from a heart plate felt >> obviously with an appropriate boundary >> but when I when I'm not just a robotic clinician >> but I am relating to a person on a a more heartfelt place right that sense of compassion that a patient will feel it they know you you know for yourself it changes your experience in the treatment room >> it just most often not only not always does an technique to acup anything need to be done just connecting >> being seen someone cares is transformative. >> What do you think it offers us? >> Being seen. >> Mhm. >> Um healing Certainly for those who never felt seen or were not seen enough, it's healing. It's grounding. It's life. It's the way we were meant to be. The Torah tell Hashem wants the heart. >> Mhm. >> Ahmed taught we have to we have to work to have a heart of flesh. >> Mhm. >> Not a heart of stone. We've become very cold and blocked for several reasons. the gullus wounds, but the doing inner work and I believe the spiritual work melts the breaks down the the barriers to to access the heart of flesh and so a person has a more a richer a richer life and I think for themselves and for the people in their lives there's more safety >> there's more security there's more comfort I know that part of your understanding of this is that when we want to do this simply in the ideal world we would be motivated to do this only because we just want more. But very often what happens that when we don't have this we experience a lot more brokenness and people are called to search deeper because of pain that they're experiencing. And you told me that you love teaching this through the lens of parenting because if we can connect with children in this way when they're young, then they won't get sick. And you really believe in that body soul connection and that when we are emotionally, spiritually blocked, it can lead to physical sickness. >> I would love to hear about that connection >> and how you understand it. >> Yeah. Um, so yeah, we said the body and soul are interconnected. It's also a concept of Chinese medicine. In Chinese medicine, there are three causes of disease. Well, I know. Um, one is an ex what we call an external invasion. So, a virus, a bacteria, god forbid, infiltrates the body, person gets sick. The second cause of disease is the emotions. >> The third cause of disease is lifestyle. So, what a person eats, how they live, habits, things like that. We know the emotions are a huge component of disease and they are in the body. It's not just in the mind. This is why body work is very important to the healing process. I work I've been in practice many years. Many of my patients come in with different symptoms in the body. Whether it's a migraine, IBS, infertility, low back pain. There is always almost always an emotional underpinning to the symptom. And for many of them, not all of them, there's childhood, deep childhood wounds of neglect, of abuse that they are still unpacking and trying to heal 20, 30, 40, 50 years later. >> Wow. And the more and more I was seeing this and then watching people bring their children in with ADHD, anxiety, insomnia, where's it coming from? And there's lots of places it's coming from. But I thought to myself, if people knew more um how to attune better to their children, particular child's nature and needs >> and connect, they can save their children from future illness and disease. >> Um because most of what people report is is what is not being seen, not being tended. Um and um and there's so much pain just from that. That's sometime is that's that emotional neglect is sometimes a heavier pain for a person than any kind of sometimes a physical or sexual abuse that may have happened. And I thought to myself, if parents can start seeing their kids better the way I get to see cuz I learned it in Chinese medicine. But if they get it, they will have such deeper connection, their kids will be less sick. Um because there there'll be more attunement >> um and needs being met. Um I felt this was a way to prevent disease >> and change the next generation. How can someone determine in their own life because as you said that one of the one of the sources of sickness could be an external virus attacking the body or >> Mhm. >> um like naturally occurring diseases and then sometimes it can be someone's own emotional pain that can present itself as physical symptoms. How does one know which one it is? And if it is an emotionbased discomfort, sickness, insomnia, ADHD, IBS, how to discover where it's coming from emotionally and to begin to soften that. Is there any direct way that you have used to discover that? I mean there's a lot of trial and error and in in in in the journey um having a good practitioner working with a good practitioner because it's it's sometimes and when I mean trial and error I don't mean like we just guess and we try meaning like some things are very complex and some things are modalities are going to work to heal and some aren't >> because sometimes all the causes of disease are happening at the same time especially when you're working with trauma later in life. So um abuse will make a person more vulnerable to the immune system will come is is not functioning optimally. So a person becomes more vulnerable to viruses. At the same time they're laden with emotions that have been repressed and third as a result of that they're having a very hard time living a functional healthy lifestyle. >> So you're working with a lot of pieces at once often >> right? Um and it it it sounds like a lot but it's really doable and you have work on each piece um in its own time and way and when I say trial error it's like some for example IBS so an earth element is going to be more vulnerable to that their emotions are going to get stored in their gut and sometimes it's going to be emotional something that was stored away 20 years ago that a good practitioner can help them unpack and release. At the same time, there's probably some physiological residue now, >> whether that's viral or um some infection that will be needed to heal at the same time through through western medicine too perhaps. >> So there's a whole web. Yes, >> there's a whole web. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, I hear that. And I think it's beautiful to hear about that holistic picture and to think about how western medicine, Chinese medicine, Torah, emotional work, body work, how all of those things come together for our healing and that we could use pieces of those as needed. >> Yeah. It's integrative medicine. >> Yeah. 100%. >> Really is. And and it keeps the person functioning. What trauma does is it scatters a person, scatters the heart. Um and so much of healing is about really coming back home to the self. So I see the spiritual work, the prayer and theidus as one way that breath guiding things back to where they belong and keeping and can give a person a structure actually a daily structure which is for them is scattered meaning prayers, meals, everything you do in your life is your service of God. eating your meals, praying your work. Um so it can provide structure to the scattering. Um and then um all that compassion that we spoke about that heart medicine, right? So when you access you can start develop more compassion for that journey >> also that journey homeward is the spiritual journey to Shouba. When you talk about those emotions being stored internally that someone could store all of these emotions in their liver, how are there some can you give some practical tools to release stored emotion if someone feels oh I have repressed a lot or I went through a really hard time? Sometimes even in our adult lives we can have like year as you mentioned the birth of your daughter was a traumatic experience. We have these like very traumatic experiences where we really end up storing so much and then when we come out of that there's a lot to release. What are some practical ways to release those emotions that it doesn't present itself as physical sickness? >> Great question. So, while the liver is the is the organ that will it it governs the smooth flow of our emotions. So, it will get it will get stifled that does need help. >> But let's keep in mind that it could the emotions can be stored in other parts of the body too. >> So, a person usually knows where that is for them whether it's their gut or their neck. Okay. Um, but a a very simple holistic tool you can start with is a drop of castor oil on the liver. You literally put it on your liver or you can put it on your intestine if that's where a person's pain is or on the neck if that's where your pain is with a little heat 10 20 minutes once or twice a week. That way you're physiologically beginning to move things. The castor oil penetrates, it moves the blood, and you're physically, you're helping that organ. And because body and soul are interconnected. If I help my organs, I'm helping my emotions. >> Okay? So, that's a physical way. A little bit of castor oil. Everyone knows I love magnesium oil. That can go anywhere. It's a way to calm the nervous system. Another way though to how do I, like you said, move those emotions, express them. Um, talk therapy, breath work, exercise, journaling, art, um, talking to a friend, >> talking to Hashem, >> just talk about what's on your mind. >> Um, those are ways. I mean, so because so much is is unsaid. That's why it's stuck. It's been unsaid. A scream. A person never had >> a defense. A person never said, a cry a person never had got to have. M >> so even playing some music having that good cry in the car whatever is also a way to move just to but it's just a fantastic question because it really we we have to check in with ourselves daily and and like I know I'm still I'm in it and I'm still I I'll notice when I'm avoiding something will happen to me during the day >> and I I'll I can very quickly release myself from it. >> Yeah. >> But then when I feel it coming back into my brain and my body, it's like, okay, you want me to look at it? Fine. And I have a conversation with myself. >> Yeah. >> And I'll say, what was that that bothered you? And just acknowledging it is way to release. >> Then a person can make a decision. Okay. Am I going to go to that venue again or am I going to engage in that conversation again? And that's self-care. powerful. Can it lead to avoidance? Meaning when we say, "Would I go will I go to that venue again? Will I have that conversation again? Will I spend time with that person again?" How do we ensure that our self-awareness doesn't lead us to avoid the hard things as opposed to building the capacity to face them? It's a good question. I think it, you know, it depends on the the circumstance there. Sometimes avoiding is going to be your best option. It's a must. Torah says you must guard your health >> and is your emotional health. >> Mhm. >> So sometimes it will be avoid >> and sometimes it will be I don't have to avoid but I have to adjust the way I present myself >> or how much I share >> or how I engage. >> I want to end with this >> with a few like quick questions kind of like rapid fire style. >> Okay. >> If you could suggest to someone to study any book in Torah, what would be the first one that you'd recommend? >> Oh gosh, there's so many good ones. Okay, top three. Top three would have to be. >> Okay. Rabi stories. Okay. And Tanya. I love it. What a trifecta. Yeah. Okay. If you could summarize in one sentence one of the biggest lessons you have learned through this journey of life, what would it be? that yourself is precious. >> Tell us why you chose that. Because this whole journey or what I've called 30 years of awakening and healing has brought me back to myself have to to have learned to accept all parts of self to know the parts of myself to love myself to enjoy spending time to be real with myself. And from there from the the acceptance and the acknowledgment that the self is so precious and so worthy everything is possible. It has to come from there. That's why I think the soul component and Torah is an essential part of the journey. Where else am I going to learn my worth from? who where who do I go to? >> Mhm. >> I have to go to the source. >> Yeah. >> And from there life begins from my from the self-worth from somebody has got me. >> Mhm. Then I can think about preparing a healthy meal and exercising when I don't want to and being kind and stretching myself >> in my midos. It I I I don't from there I think the real real life begins. Brilliant. I think that's brilliant. If you were sitting across from a person on this journey of life, wanting to find wholeness through the light of their nishama, through the light of their souls, through the wisdom of Torah, feeling out of balance in their emotional world, any brokenness from their past or current self and life circumstances, if you could look them in the eye and tell them anything, what would you say? You are worthy. because that's what gets lost in the pain or was never given and that is that's the whole of life. I'm in shama that's wanted that was created was placed here for a reason who's always in the shelter of Hashem's wings. who who is worthy. Now what life then unfolds to be and looks like and um is is going to be particular to every nishama's journey but through it all and through the the obstacles and the twists and the turns if a person has solid f solid knowing of their true worth of who they're aligned with Hashem himself you can overcome anything >> and all of us in this life are overcoming things. >> That's what we're doing here. >> And so um but again that that validation from the source >> from there I think everything is possible. >> That's Yeah. I mean it took I wasn't I think I was 41 >> Mhm. When I first learned the mimemer of the Revi on Lol about Anila Dohi and it in that mimemer it says you are loved your your existence is is takes pleasure in your existence. The just the pure essence of you before you've done any tshoua and before any mitzvah just existing. You're so loved and wanted. Shem loves you. I I was 41 when I read that for the first time. >> That's that's that's light. >> To discover that you're loved. >> Yeah. >> That you're worthy. >> I like I'll I'll never forget where I was when it happened and I read it and everything sh everything again shifted >> in that moment. And I think this work we talk about with the elements and the meos when you specifically parents if you start if we can get that message to the children that they are loved as they are before anything they've done or haven't done. They can be giants. >> Yeah. Can I tell you something that I find really moving >> is hearing you say, "I remember when it happened." Talking about reading that sentence in the piece of work that you were reading as though it were an event. Like it was an event. It happened to me that I read this thing like it it was a full experience and a full event. And I think that that encounter with Torah, like seeing it as I remember when it happened as opposed to I remember when I read it >> is such rich language to me for what it means to interact with the Torah in a way where it's like >> it happened. I experienced it. I didn't read this. I didn't study this, but I remember when it happened and how things shifted after that encounter. >> Yes. Yes. Thank you for saying that. It is experiential. you will find as you go deeper and study it's an experience. I felt the expansion. >> Um and I trusted it. It was truth and it it was it was resonated and my and I forever changed from that moment. Um and so too other experiences of studying different aspects of Torah Torah portion it's an experience every week every para >> transformation. Yeah. I think there's also something to being an eyewitness to it. Meaning you read it yourself. So someone didn't tell me by the someone didn't tell you by the way God loves you and you read it. >> I think there's a different experience of like you can trust that that this is truth and you trusted what you read. >> Yes. And that's why I give out that mimer on my retreats. >> Really? >> Everyone goes home with a copy of it so they also read it for themselves. >> Mhm. And they know how worthy. And you know, all of them said the same thing as me. I've never seen this before in 20, 30, 40 years. >> Wow. >> Of living a Jewish life. >> Yeah. You said that. You said, tell me what you said about your age. Oh, I said that I'm 46, thank God, and theidus came into my life in this way in the last 5 years. So, I think that makes me 5 years old like >> um learning things again. >> Mhm. really speaks to how we can how deeply we can begin again. How it's never too late to start a new path in our Judaism, our understanding of ourselves. that at any moment we can choose to, you know, have this experience to open the door and to feel renewed and begin a completely new path of understanding what it means to have an ashama and to have a soul and how deeply that could impact our sense of self, our life, our experience of our challenges in ways that have been so transformational for you and that you are giving to others too. >> Yeah. At any Yeah. Any moment. Thank you so much. >> Thank you. >> What a joy. >> This was really special. >> Mhm. Thank you. >> Thank you so much for listening to today's episode. I hope you loved it. And if you did, don't forget to leave us a fivestar rating or a review. It helps other people find the podcast, brings us so much joy. New episodes come out every Sunday and Wednesday morning. You can find us on Instagram at humanandholy. And email us at infinhumanholy.com with your feedback, guest recommendations, thought processes. We love to hear your thoughts. If you are passionate about the work that Human and Holy is doing and want to be a partner with us in bringing this work into the world, visit humanandholy.com/sponsor where you can give in any amount, sponsor a specific episode, and contribute to bringing the wisdom of Torah and into the world in this human and holy way. Thank you so much for being here. I'll see you soon.