God as an Encounter, Not a Belief | Dr. Mijal Bitton

I 100% believe that alongside investing in our communities and investing in our faith in God, we have to mobilize. We have to mobilize politically. We have to mobilize in terms of the the ties that we build with our neighbors. >> We have to become much more strategic. We in America, for many good reasons, have lived under an illusion that certain hatreds have been eradicated and we've become complacent. We've become we we've spent the last two years being in shock. >> Yeah. >> Okay. And I just don't think we have the luxury to not take all of those energies and just use that to be strategic [music] and to fight back. Hello there. I'm Tanya Kazanov and you're listening to human and holy. Before we get started with today's episode, I want to invite you [music] quick second, make sure that you hit the follow button. And if you are following us and appreciate the work that we're doing, leave us a rating or a review. It's a small lift from you, but it [music] does a lot in terms of supporting Human and Holy, and I will always pay it forward to you in bringing you deeper and richer content to support you in living [music] your most vibrant Jewish life. Today's episode is a conversation with Mikon. We recorded this before [music] the massacre at the Sydney Khan lighting, but it feels to me like it [music] speaks directly to the current moment. My first introduction to Mikall was right after October 7th in a viral video where she stood [music] and gave an incredibly impassioned speech about being a Jew after October 7th. After that, she was a featured speaker at the November 2023 March for Israel in Washington, [music] DC. And today, we speak about what the world needs from Jewish people right now. [music] what Judaism needs from us in general. What it looks like to belong to a family, to belong to a people, to [music] have collective responsibility, while also talking about personal faith and how to live with imperfect [music] faith, what happens when our faith breaks. Mikall sharing a little bit about her personal faith journey, [music] finding comfort in the people that came before her. It's a conversation that really speaks to me to the current Jewish [music] experience of searching for our purpose while also holding the grief and the sorrow of what we just experienced as a people and what it really means to be part of a collective to be part of a [music] people. Mik speaks about what it means that Judaism is not a religion but a family. What it means to be called and summoned to this [music] people to this family and to this purpose that we all have as Jews. Mhabon is a prominent American sociologist of religion. She's a spiritual leader and public intellectual who specializes in the experience of Sparty and Misrai Jews in the United States. [music] She's the co-founder and leader of the downtown minion in New York City, a visiting researcher at NYU Wagner. [music] She's a scholar and residence at the Mymonities Funds, a SAC scholar and a research fellow [music] at the Shalom Hartman Institute. She co-hosts the weekly podcast called Wondering Jews with Noam [music] Weissman discussing contemporary Jewish identity and challenges. She publishes the committed Substack where she shares weekly essays on Torah, Jewish peoplehood, and the American Jewish experience post October 7th. Mikall earned her PhD from New York University focusing her dissertation on the Syrian Jewish community in Brooklyn. Mikl is wise, real, articulate, [music] and such a joy. It was an honor to sit down with her and I'm excited to share this conversation with you. Mikall, welcome to Human and Holy. >> Thank you for having me. Excited to be here. >> Likewise. I'm so excited to have you here. And I would love if you could begin just by sharing in your own words a little bit about who you are as a person beyond your professional roles. Like who are you, Mikall? >> Uh who am I? That's a big existential [clears throat] question to begin with. Um I don't know. I'm um I'm a really curious person who's passionate about um many things and especially being part of the Jewish people and helping our people. >> I'm a mom and that's a really important identity to me. >> Um you're catching me in a week when I feel like I'm very much a New Yorker like with um election coming up. So thinking a lot about what it means to live in society. Mhm. >> Um, yeah, >> I was sharing with you that my first interaction with you was this viral clip of you on the sidewalk of New York right after October 7th sharing about all the different pieces of your identity, what you are made up of, where you are from, who you are as a Jew, how you identify within America and your response to that as a Jewish person. So in that I remember feeling like this is a leader because all of us were reeling from the shock of the emotional experience of October 7th and seeing someone who was so quickly able to metabolize those emotions into a fierceness and a loud strong voice. And I was very curious to know where you got and get that strength from to speak within an emotional experience but with such a strong force of like strong inner identity and strength and like I will not cower even when I'm hurting. >> Well, thank you. That's very kind. I mean, it's so hazy just thinking about those days. It was such a intense time. Just so you know, by the way, that morning I had uh gone to my daughter's preschool and done like a birthday party for her. >> Oo. >> And then like cuz you have to be a mom and function even when things are going down. Um and then like worked in the speech on the subway on the way to the to the rally at NYU. Um, honestly, my my overwhelming emotion back then was I felt very I felt very humbled, very almost like in the face of my brothers and sisters and cousins and friends in Israel >> and seeing what they were asked to do and how they were asked to fight and get up and I almost felt a sense of like and I'm speaking just to myself here like you do not have the luxury >> to wallow. you you cannot be living through this moment in history and see their greatness like the least you can do the least you can do is get up right now and and and speak. >> Yeah. >> So that was very much what I was feeling and I I just kept thinking it it's you know different times in history call you to do different things >> and we cannot sit out this moment. >> Wow. Like I don't have the luxury to wallow. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I I just actually just came back from Israel a week ago or a few days ago. It's a blur again. Um and I'm feeling similarly like I was there for about a week and the determination, optimism, resilience that you see in individuals who just went through two years of war >> and they're not wallowing. They are determined. They're not naive about the challenges. But I think there's something you didn't ask this this question, but I'll just say it anyways. I think there's something in the air in our American culture that is very conducive to like self-pity and wallowing and like woe is me and things are so hard and I understand it. I love venting as much as the next person. But when that leads you to paralysis or to despair or to not acting that can become dangerous. And I think to me I have been just inspired every single day by seeing people in far more intense and acute circumstances get up and say this is our fight and we are going to meet it. There's something that you really speak about which is about rising to meet the moment with a sense of purpose. you have a great quote which is that um we need Judaism but Judaism needs us >> and I'd love to hear you speak about that right now. What does that idea mean to you? I was trying to articulate for myself way before October 7th like just my my philosophy as an educator. I work with so many people different ages. Um I I try to help welcome them into Jewish tradition, Jewish learning, Jewish community. And I have sensed like the moment that someone feels that this amazing thing called the Jewish story needs them, >> right? For the Jewish story to be fulfilled, it changes your relationship to Judaism completely. >> If you're a bystander, a participant just watching from the sidelines like there's this interesting thing and whenever I want I participate, that's nice. But if you wake up and you and you really feel like my people need me, this story needs me. the the in religious terms the covenant is not fulfilled >> unless I step up and I'm part of it. >> That is something incredibly powerful. There was um a work I once read of sociological studies studying uh orthodox Jews in Los Angeles actually by random book. >> Okay. >> But the the the the sociologist described as a a social feeling of feeling summoned. When you interact with a community and you feel summoned to it, the community needs you, the minion needs you, you know, the the whatever organization needs you. Um, you are needed to make something happen. And psychologically, it's a totally different feeling between participating and feeling absolutely needed to be part of something. >> Summoned by your Judaism. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. I think that's the goal for me. That's the like that's my if if I want to if you ask me how do you want the people that you work with that you teach to feel I want them to feel like their life is incomplete without Judaism and Judaism is incomplete without them >> which is huge and also in the face of Jewish struggle. It's also incredibly therapeutic to feel that there's something being asked of you as opposed to you just having to experience your own challenging emotions. >> Right. Right. there's a place of agency that we get to step up and hopefully make things better. >> Yeah. So, you were talking about how Judaism is not a religion or not just a religion and it's not necessarily defined by faith which I think is really interesting to bring into this conversation especially when people experience imperfect faith and I I think especially in the wake of real tragedy. Does God exist? Did God make this happen? How do I feel about my Judaism? Mostly we've seen real strengthening of Jewish practice and connection to Judaism, but still an internal wrestling with faith is something that I've heard from a lot of people. And I'm curious if you could talk a little bit to this idea that Judaism is not a religion. What is or not just a religion? What is Judaism? And what how can we feel that summoning, feel that full participation in our Judaism even when we may be experiencing an imperfect faith? >> Right? So, uh stop me if I get too academic here. Okay? Please do. Please do give us the good. >> Okay, I'll do it because I I am a sociologist and my expertise has been on Jews from the Arab world. So I spent a lot of time not just looking at Jewish experiences but trying to understand the categories that we use to study the human experience. >> So when we speak about religion, especially in the west, especially in America, we tend to have a very Protestant assumption >> as to what religion means. We tend to think of something that has to do with inner faith. M >> we tend to think of something that should be divorced from the public square. There should be a separation between church and state. We have a whole range of assumptions that have to do with a vertical connection to God that doesn't always come with a connection to to other people. That that is that is primary. Now put juice aside for a second. The idea of religion itself is something that is a little bit modern, >> right? like in the past you didn't necessarily have this distinction. You can argue that you know the rise of Protestant religiosity brought a whole set of assumptions. Uh so if you look then like at at ancient Judaism or even at like Islam today you find there um almost like a blurring of categories that we think of as distinct categories. So when it comes to Judaism, you cannot separate the sense of being a family, a tribe, an ethnic group from having a relationship with God. Okay? Like you you just cannot separate it if you study the history, the text of Judaism. So when I say it's not a religion, it doesn't mean to say that it doesn't have religious aspects. Of course it does, but it actually defies the narrow cookie cutter shape of religiosity. >> We are now uh as we're filming this like reading the book of Genesis um throughout the book of Genesis, Exodus, like throughout the entire Torah, what you see there is almost like an intersectional relationship in which to be a Jew is to be summoned to be in relationship with God, but never as an individual. like Abraham and Sarah were called by God um to go on this mysterious journey and and we know them as like the founders of monotheism. Um you've got philosophers who called Abraham the knight of faith really focusing on his faith in God. But there was nothing individualistic, you know, about this experience. The only place where the Torah, the Bible tells us why Abraham was chosen is in chapter 18 of Genesis in which we are told that he was chosen. Why? So that his descendants will fulfill you know will fulfill that we will follow the path of God and fulfill justice and righteousness. So there's something intrinsic about the Jewish experience that ties it all together. I cannot speak of a relationship and faith with God as an individual without thinking of myself as part of the Jewish family. >> That is almost like um bastardizing of the idea of what it means to be a Jew and retrofitting us into modern categories. So that's a little bit what I mean. I'm someone who believes in God. I can speak about what it means to struggle with that. Um because I think we all have our journeys. Um, but I also it's just so clear to me and part of what I find so precious about what it means to be a Jew is that I don't like I I am so in love with my people >> and that love feels like like the covenant at Sinai that brought us here was a covenant in which we stood together and we spoke in in plural and were spoken to in plural by God. So I cannot divorce my love for my people and my relationship with God from each other. They are absolutely intertwined and interconnected. That was so beautifully said and I love the way you describe how a love of God comes as a Jewish person with the love of our people and that those things are so interconnected and there's nothing individualistic about Jewish identity. Although I do have to ask you, we live in such an individualistic culture and every person even that call that you described of Aram and Sara being called or being called by God on this individual journey to the land that he will be shown. There is this sense that there you you walk the path of faith alone even as you are beside others. meaning you have to wrestle with your own faith internally, your own observance as you also feel responsible and summoned to the community and your communal responsibility, your brothers and sisters. So, what does it look like to experience your individual journey and path within your Judaism while always feeling that you're part of a people and a family and you don't fully walk the path of faith alone? >> Yeah, I think that's like one of the like million-dollar questions about what it means to be a Jew. And I'll just say like in moral um psychology and anthropology for example um uh there's an anthropologist called Richard Schweder and he says that different cultures prioritize different moral languages. >> Some cultures prioritize individualism, some cultures prioritize collectivism and some prioritize like divinity God. >> And I think Judaism has everything right. Our tradition is so thick and rich with meaning and narrative that we are, you know, we are we have all of these things together. And you're right, there's something um if if if we live full lives as Jews, we should aspire, if we're lucky, to have a relationship with God that feels like it's our own and not an imitation, right, of somebody else's religion, uh or somebody else's path to God. So I agree with that. Um maybe the only thing I would say is like this. I um I lean a lot um I have tremendous comfort in the gut of my grandparents and there's something to me that's very spheric about this. Okay. >> And I and you know and I can quote those scholars and philosophers if you want on that. But for me when when there is darkness or when I struggle or when I have questions to be able to say this is the God of my grandmother my abuela whom I adored >> and her faith in God can sustain me even when I struggle I have found in that so much power and so much um strength so so I don't think we need to like fully choose and say you need to have a journey that's fully your own or you need to always do what your parents and grandparents did. I think we're going to, you know, go in different places. Um, and I think it's good to be able to sometimes pave our own path and also have the option to lean on the path that other people have paved before us. >> Beautifully stated. It makes me think of the concept of the avauteras, the hidden love that every Jew has inside that we inherited from our forefathers. So to think of that in terms of a grandmother who you loved is so beautiful to think this is the faith of my grandmother who I knew and loved and it was such a complete pure faith right I maybe I will add to this there's a philosopher called Mary Bzaglo and he he's written about how amuna >> which we can translate as faith is not a perfect translation but how amuna in the safar means rai tradition developed a little bit differently >> okay >> he would argue that in dash Ashkinazi or western tradition. So for example in his in one of his books um he talks about how in many academic or religious circles you will often ask like do you believe that si happened or not? >> So you have to give a yes or no answer. Did God have revelation? >> Okay. And you're going to get binary answers. You will have those who say I cannot believe in that >> and those who say 100% my faith is predicated on that >> and comes and argues that traditionalism has a certain faithfulness that literally operates in a different plane. So it says like we are not talking about do you believe or not believe. Our answer is do you have loyalty and faithfulness to those who came before you who told you they stood at Sinai >> and that is not even like um epistemic question did it happen or it didn't happen it's like are you in relationship with those who told you they stood there and that that to me is a little bit what I try to capture when I say that the faith of my grandmother holds me up >> that to me that >> that's enough. >> Yeah. It's a connection to your ancestors. >> Yeah. And to God through them. >> Through them. Would you say cuz what you kind of described was that you lean on that faith of your grandmother. When you yourself cannot find the faith within you. Is that how the way you look at it that first there's the individual and then when your own faith fails, that's when you turn to the faith of the ancestors? H >> That's a good question. I I don't think so. I think we all have different pathways. Uh for me, and I'll just share a little bit. Um I grew up in a very um religious socially conservative background where I had a lot of certainty >> about my faith. Um I didn't have any questions or doubts >> and then I went in my own journey. Um and was in different spaces and honestly something um something ruptured. I'm not going to say something raptured that I started to not believe. But when you go from a state in which everything feels so self-evident and everything makes so much sense and then suddenly you're asking a million questions. There's something there's almost like um the term that I found I found this philosopher who's written about it. He speaks I forgot his name but he speaks about a >> naiva >> like you have a certain um it's almost like you grow up knowing your parents love you. You don't have to think too much about it. It's like it's like it is what it is. >> And when you lose that, even if you don't even if you don't have like a crisis of faith, >> right? But you lose that um feeling that it's as natural as the air you're breathing. That that can be like its own crisis. >> So I know for me, I spent many years looking for what this same philosopher called a secon. He asked can you ever regain not can you regain um like belief in something but can you regain that sense of like timoot how I don't know how how am I going to is it >> maybe like a naive like a certain I don't know how how else to describe it um and I feel like I spent many years like literally searching for it and as you can imagine if you're on an intellectual quest for a certain feeling of you know know what I'm saying? Help me with words. >> Sincerity 100% >> maybe. And that can be like almost like the opposite like you're trying to go on an intellectual quest for something that you want to just feel like a sense of like wholeness. >> Um so for me I don't know exactly what it was. I I describe it as a moment I call it like you know grace. Uh not that I'm using too much of the Christian concept, but like um like I feel like sometimes God helps when you ask for help in these things. And and for me it was it was my my my the idea of multi youth my grandmother's faith that kind of helped me stumble into a place of wholeness >> without resolving questions but like to feel >> like to to not be constantly in that place of existential you know anxiety and fraudness but but everybody has a different path. >> Yeah. >> So I don't necessarily think that it's sequential. Um for me it was it was this way. I felt that that I was getting a lot of ideological answers for questions that just wouldn't be resolved, you know, through through ideology. So I I speak a lot about relationship as faith. >> For me, faith is relational, not just with my grandmother, but with God. Like it's not God is not an ideology. God has to be an encounter that you say you and and and if you're lucky, you you you mean it when you say it, right? So it's very not the way that we are trained to think of God and religion in the west >> and in America. >> Um but but that for me has been absolutely critical just to be able to think about who I am, who I want to be, how I want to raise my children. >> That was so beautiful. God not as a belief but as an encounter. >> Yeah. It cannot be an like philosophers have as an object of discussion. Mhm. >> Like you don't want that. You want God as like an ido, like as a subject of relationship. >> Yeah. >> That's beautiful. And it's incredible to hear your own process. And I really hear that idea of wanting to capture the sincerity of your youth, the wholeness, the complete lack of questions with an intellectual pursuit. And that wasn't necessarily I'm sure it was obviously part of the journey to coming to the wholeness from the faith of your grandmothers but and grandfathers but >> my grandma has a special place in my heart. [laughter] Yes. Yes. >> The grandmother. She's got her special place. Yeah. >> What can you tell us a little bit about her and what it is? >> She was amazing. Um like I'll start crying when I if I speak too much about her. She was this little old lady. >> Okay. >> Short. >> Okay. >> Her name was Aba Nori. She was born in uh in a northern uh city like a city in northern Morocco that belonged to Spain. She made she moved to Israel. She had nine children, did not graduate high school. >> Was the most devout karate woman you could meet. She would wear like layers upon layers upon layers. Cosmodesty for her was everything. Um there's so much I can say about her. She was just so special. Um, and and I'm sure that all of her grandkids, she had like a hundred, thought they had a special relationship with her. But I I also felt that. Um, and I think what made her so special for me was that I made certain choices as I was finding my own way. >> Um, that many people in my family disagreed with regarding my approach to Judaism or to women's leadership or to things that I was doing. And I lived with a lot of fear and dynamics of what it means when you feel, you know, rejected by those who you love because of the path you're taking. And and in some shallow ways, my Abola represented like a lot of the opposite of what I was doing. like she would wear layers upon layers and I would go and give like lectures to like mixed crowds, men and women, which for her was like um but she she always just made me feel so utterly loved. It was such a um it was such a gift to have that relationship that was so there's a saying from from a wisdom of our sages that say that um like real love is not dependent on something else right so this was like a a love that felt very non-instrumental >> it wasn't conditional on me being like her >> so I I I I was really blessed with that Um, and she she passed away shortly after my daughter was born 6 years ago. Um, but I I think about her nearly every day about what it what it what she meant from what she means for me. >> Mhm. And it's interesting how you describe how maybe your faith is being expressed in ways that superficially may be different, but because of the love that you experienced in that relationship, she managed to bequeath a faith that sustains you. >> Yeah. I think I I want uh I often think what would my grandmother tell me to do? [clears throat] Not that I do everything she would tell me to do. [laughter] >> Um but I think when you loved someone and you felt so loved by them, you want to like I want to be her granddaughter, you know? So that's and that's by the way again as an aside there's all of this research done on on religious families in America for Jews mostly Christians that say that if you have a very warm loving relationship with a grandparent >> okay that that actually makes religious continuity more likely. >> Wow. >> Um so there's something there. I'm not the only one. >> Like it's a deep thing >> I think. So yeah cuz it's less fraud than parents. >> Mhm. Yeah. and we're unconditional very often. It could be. Yeah, >> it could be. >> So, >> and and I love my parents. Yeah. In case they're listening. Yeah. >> Love [laughter and clears throat] you. >> Okay. So, when for It's so It's beautiful to hear. It's beautiful to me to hear like the personal influences that have shaped you and guided you on your faith journey. And when we speak about Jewish people as having this enormous sense of purpose, responding with responsibility to the world, I think of the vision of Messiah as having this of redemption, as having this moral imagination and vision and a sense of possibility of what could be in this world beyond what we currently see and what our role is in creating that. And I would be so curious to hear from you on what you imagine or envision or hope for from the Jewish world in the Jewish world and in what we could offer to the world. Is there any partic particular thing that you hold kind of in your imagination of a possibility for where we could go and that doesn't necessarily exist right now? >> Yeah. I mean, the question you're asking feels so countercultural right now >> because there's so many fires >> and so much brokenness that I think many of us are just aspiring to like get out of the darkness, [laughter] >> keep it under control. >> Yeah. like like less anti-semitism in the world, you know. Um yeah, I literally pray to God. I'm like, God, give us the challenges of of no anti-semitism as opposed to the challenges of anti-semitism. >> Um so I think that what you're asking it's um it's an interesting question because we often don't uh don't think about it. Um listen at the end of the day I am I was also really shaped and I'm proudly a student of Rab by Jonathan Sax and he was one of the things that he bequis me and so many of his students was this very strong sense that the point of Judaism is to actually give something magnificent to the world. It's not just to build like um an insular community that survives, right? We're not like creating the ark of like Noah's ark surviving the flood even though sometimes we have to. Um but I think for for a B sex and and part of what inspires my thinking in this is when Judaism can be seen as a force for good. So my aspiration right now is humble because of how dark it is out there >> right now. part of what keeps me up at night. I mean, there's the very real Jew hatred, anti-ionism, anti-semitism, all of that. And part of me is also very sad >> because the the point of Judaism was to be a light into the nations. And part of the liels that are happening right now, it's this moment where, you know, all the evils of the world are are blamed and seen as Jews. So in many ways, messianic times, right, or an idea of like something to aspire to is when we can do the very hard work not just of fighting hate, but of being able to be identified with what it means to be a light into the nations, to be a a people that loves life, that loves wisdom, that seeks to to help each other, to make our communities great and our societies even better. So, it's a little bit reacting to this moment, but to me, that's part of what I'm hoping for right now. >> Yeah, I hear that. That that's part of the sadness is that we're not fully able to necessarily focus on this farreaching vision because we are responding to such hatred and anti-semitism. >> Yeah. Although, to be fair, it's not just about our focus. I think the world is maligning us to such an extent right now that it's kind of hard to to to do that. Um and even as I believe we have to fight, right? And we have to fight for our safety and dignity. Um I wrote about this in my I have a a weekly substack like with a with a words of wisdom from the para. So I wrote about what it means to be the descendant of Abraham >> that in many ways um he faced so many challenges that would have very easily led him to despair. But he he I argued had a certain aspirational faith in humanity >> that you can in you can you can even dream. I think we've lost this capacity >> to dream that one day we can um we can not just be seen favorably but actually act favorably and like do so in a way that brings light into the world. M >> uh so I think that part of what's really hard right now is to feel besieged >> and to fight because we have to. I'm not naive about it, but not lose sight of the fact that we are still dreaming >> of a different reality. >> I think that that's so much of the you mentioned Rabbi Sax and what a big influence he's had on your life. I know that you are a Sax scholar and he has such a beautiful delineation between the term hope and optimism, right? which where he talks about optimism as this passive force versus hope as being able to hold this vision and see your place in it, >> right? Uh yeah, optimism I think he would describe it as polyanish >> and hope is a determination. >> So and that's so much of what it means to be a Jew. I mean going back to to to to Genesis so many of the promises that we are given at the beginning are not fulfilled, right? I I was reading this book by this scholar John Levenson and he made a point that like I knew but I hadn't really thought of before. He basically says like the the Jewish covenant, the covenant that God makes with Abraham and with Sarah tells them from the get-go, it's going to get really hard. And I'm like, what other covenant does this? This is not like a come over here, it's going to be awesome, happily ever after. I'll give your children all these blessings. M >> this is like a follow me to somewhere unknown. You'll have some blessings and yes you'll have so many challenges. Your descendants are going to be enslaved. Like it is not going to be easy. And and that is something um I think sobering about what it means to be a Jew. And it's also very demanding because we are asked to have hope um as a conviction >> even when times are hard. >> Yeah. That that's an interesting uh point to bring out. Yes. >> Right. and it's [laughter] like come come here we're going to have a life of challenge. However, I'm so curious to hear you speak to that because I think that many people do or there's something very unsustainable to me about a Judaism that's defined by hardship and challenge and the love and beauty and richness of Judaism being the strongest association that we have with Judaism as opposed to the hardship to me feels like so integral to the continuity of our Judaism not just for ourselves but for our descendants. If someone is feeling really mired in that feeling of challenge, the challenge of being a Jew, the anti-semitism, the hardship, how to how to strengthen the feeling of joy of being a Jew and strength of being a Jew and blessing of being a Jew so that the hardship doesn't begin to weigh on you and become the defining factor of your Judaism. >> Right. And 100% just to clarify I I I I I believe that uh that the bedrock of what it means to be a Jew is that we belong to this magnificent tradition and people and it's a joy and it's a gift. >> Um I'll just maybe I'll just answer it in two ways. uh I have met so many students in the last two years who you know are feeling so besieged and so challenged and when we meet that you know I uh I I'm not kabad but I I felt like I was becoming kabad because my first question to them would be where are you Friday night for Shabbat dinner where are you Shabbat day where like you know what are you doing um and and by that like it was just so clear to me that If if if what Judaism is for you, it's just to fight back. Um it is unsustainable, it is depressing, it is not what it means to be a Jew. And I I am such a firm believer that we have to fight. But but that is not where you get your strength. >> You get your strength and your joy from being in community, from experiencing the joy of Torah learning, um from finding inspiration in different places. Um so that that to me is critical 100% and we do have some data especially from students on campus who feel so who've begun to associate Judaism with just having to fight. So 100% that that is not good. The second thing I will say is that to me Israeli society is so important as a model here even [clears throat] with this is what Israelis combined and sorry for romanticizing that I do this that Israelis um they continue to have some of the hap the highest happiness rates in the world. Okay, go go go to the sh go to Tel Aviv. The amount of life and joy and vibrancy is is undeniable. And Israelis also most of them live with a very sober understanding that they are surrounded by enemy or non-friendly nations that they are facing insurmountable ads. So I actually think there's something there right that sometimes we think it's a binary either like you're happy you focus on the joy of Judaism or you focus on on the hardship. And for me, Israelis are the perfect case study in which they are just so full of life and vibrancy and joy and love of life even when going through really hard things. And I have been feeling this so personally and also trying to share this that I think we American Jews need to learn from Israeli Jews in this aspect >> that we need to find that backbone and that spine for the challenges that come our way and do so in a way that is like embracing life and encouraging more Jewish communities and Jewish children and Jewish joy and being with each other. So I don't believe they have to be a contradiction. And I think they they can and should live together. >> That's beautifully stated. And using the Israeli people as I don't I don't want to separate them as a pe as a separate people from us, but using [sighs] those who live in Israel as an example of what it looks like to experience real hardship and also enormous joy and vibrancy in your Judaism and seeing that we can strengthen the joy and vibrancy while also facing the challenges that we do. I'm curious, when you say we do need to fight, what do you mean by that? What does it mean to fight? Well, we're recording this uh in New York City the week before a major election >> uh where the stakes feel very very high. Um I I have some really deep concerns about the future of my city, of my country, Western civilization if you want to call it. There's some huge threats that are out there and we as Jews are not immune to that. And so much of our well-being hinges on how certain fights are resolved. >> So I 100% believe that alongside investing in our communities and investing in our faith in God, we have to mobilize. We have to mobilize politically, we have to mobilize in terms of the the ties that we build with our neighbors. >> We have to become much more strategic. We in America for many good reasons have lived under an illusion that certain hatreds have been eradicated and we've become complacent. We've become we we've spent the last two years being in shock. >> Yeah. >> Okay. And I just don't think we have the luxury to not take all of those energies and just use that to be strategic and to fight back. So the fight has many fronts and many battles. And I um I say this in my in my shoe all the time. Doesn't matter who you are, what industry you're in, what talents you are, if you're working or not not working. Like whoever you are, there is a role to play. There are battles to be fought. >> And we never ever ever know which battle, which individual, which moment will make a difference. We we just don't know. >> Nobody knows how that works. So I I do 100% believe it's incumbent upon us to have that sense of urgency >> and that sense of responsibility. It's it's up there's nobody there's nobody out there right like that will fix things for us. I think we have this desire right that to think of the grown-ups in charge >> who will fix things. >> That's that's not it. We we we've seen so much in the last few years how much that is a fallacy. >> So I think we we respond to that by asking ourselves where am I? What gifts has God given me? What doors are open in front of me? And what could I do? >> And that will look differently for each person. We are the grown-ups. >> We are the grown-ups. >> It's [clears throat] a death to swallow. >> Yeah, it is. We are the grown-ups. And I I think that being able to really own the responsibility of our future and as you said to to begin to be more strategic, more aware not to live with this false sense of security and instead to really rise to the occasion to try to inform the trajectory of history is really big. And I would love to end with some personal questions, some rapid fire. Um, you hold many identities in order to stay in this strong sense of responsibility and to stay centered in who you are. As you said at the beginning, you are a leader and a scholar and a mother and you hold many identities and many roles in your life throughout the day. I'm sure you shift through the roles over and over again. Are there any personal practices that you have either in Torah study, physically, emotionally, mentally, intellectually that you hold to prevent yourself from burnout, avoid fragmentation of your identities, and to stay centered in who you are? >> Um, well, one of them is actually travel to Israel. >> Like I have this psychological need to go there. I feel like I encounter not just the land and the people, but I encounter myself there >> in a way that I don't in other places. So, that's actually like a need I have. Uh I try to go twice a year. Uh I wish I could go more often, but it's it's it's a centering experience. It's a very I just came back and I went because I felt I'm like I I am in need of that >> wow >> encounter with myself that I don't have in other places. Um, and something else I do is I always, you know, I pray formally, but I also pray informally before I ever give a talk or a speech, just like turning to God and just saying, "If I'm meant to do something here, help me." And just put the right words in my mouth and just help me, you know, say the right things. >> Yeah. Be a channel. >> Yeah. >> Oh, beautiful. And that was unexpected and delightful to hear you say Israel. Going to your holy land roots you back within yourself >> 100%. I I meet myself there every time I go. >> Wow. Beautiful. >> Okay. Quick rapid fire. Three questions. All right. If you're sitting across from another person and you want to just give them one message from your soul to theirs, what would you say? I would say that we each have what to contribute to the world and we should spend our time here on earth trying to figure out what that is. >> One Jewish book that you think that you like highly recommend that someone should read. >> Oh yeah. Okay. This is such a hard question. >> I know one five. >> There's too many. There's [laughter] too many. Well, one that just came out by my friend Sarah Horwitz. Okay. >> Is called as a Jew. And I think it's just like excellent reading for anybody who's trying to figure out if you haven't been connected until now and just trying to figure out what it means to be >> a Jew at this moment. So, highly recommend that. Highly recommend um by Sax again, I just have to say it. But whether it's like I I read his Torah commentary every week, um a letter in the scroll, so many books that he's written. Um and I think it's good to not just have one favorite Jewish book. everything. We should just keep reading and reading and reading and finding new ones. >> What is a book that has impacted you the most deeply and shaped your way of thinking? >> I That's a hard question. >> I love the [laughter] I by the way. I I really love books and like I have a shopping addiction when it comes to books. So it's And you're asking me to choose one. >> Um that that shape that it's that's a hard it's there's too many. Choose a few. >> No. You want me to choose a different question? >> You know what? There's a sociologist. >> Okay. that Peter Burgerer, he really shaped the way I think about the world. He was actually >> uh born to Jewish parents who converted to Christianity, but he wrote about the world from the point of view of a religious person. >> And I feel like he gave me the tools um to approach, it's going to sound dense, but he gave me a lot of tools to approach the academic study of religion and to be able to feel confident >> uh in the face of that. So, as someone who loves sociology, he was incredibly important for me as I was maturing into thinking about the world. >> That's a cool recommendation or cool. >> Yeah, I don't know if I'm like recommending him for [laughter] >> but for me, Peter Burger Peter Burger. >> Okay. >> Uh Roy Sex liked him also. Um he was he was really um important. Yeah. I also again random things. I've read some really good books by Christian pastors, >> okay, >> about what it means to teach the Bible. And in some ways I think think about like the mega churches okay >> I think we have what to learn >> from other communities. So for example this book is called communicating for change was adamant that when you're speaking to somebody uh this might feel obvious to you but it's not obvious to every Torah teacher that your purpose is not just to teach an ancient text but to help the person figure out their place in that ancient text. So, random random I've not choosing just one. Sorry. >> No, it was amazing what came to mind. And I said that was the last question, but I lied because I there's one question that I'm like I didn't ask you at all about this. So, I'm like, let's close with this. You speak so much about your Spartic identity and how that has shaped you. And I'm curious in short, if you could share what you feel is unique about your Spartic heritage and what it has offered you and your Jewish identity. I think that would be so interesting to end with. >> Yeah. Uh, so my parents, thank God, raised me in a way that on the one hand was incredibly proud and confident of being a Spharic Jew and not just like the food. That's what people usually think about. But I I was given an intellectual basis and a tradition. So like to understand where I come from. And they also raised me in a way in which that pride and confidence came hand inhand with feeling part of the Jewish people and feeling that we get to give each other gifts in terms of where we come from. >> Um which was really really important to me. But I think there is a certain there's a lot that I love about my background. Um there is a certain um relationship with tradition that I alluded to before that feels very organic, >> right? That you can have the person who's like about to go clubbing, but first they kiss their grandparents hand with reverence >> and nothing about that feels artificial. It feels absolutely organic. So there's a lot of that organic aspect of what I would call a spafaric traditionalism that I think is so healthy in a world where we are diverse and all over the place. Um, and just to have that to to raise my children uh with that kissing their own grandparents hands as something that like you do even as a modern person >> uh feels really really precious >> and I think that is so beautiful and also it creates this synthesis between the different parts of your identity where Judaism is this organic natural expression of who you are. >> Yeah. >> Powerful. This was a delight. Thank you for making the time for this. What a joy. Pleasure to be here. >> Yeah. Thank [music] you. >> Thanks so much. >> Thank you so much for being here. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. 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