How Could a Good God Bring So Much Pain Into the World?

Welcome back to Human and Holy. >> Thank you for [laughter] having me back. >> So excited. >> So excited to have you back. We are doing a three-part series on this book, The Introduction to the Zohar, the Wisdom of Truth by Rabbi Hudel Ashlo. And I'm really excited because we're going to cover many topics on cabalistic wisdom and really like diving deep into some of the core ideas in this book. I can't wait. Let's give a little bit of historical context. He lived from 1886 to 1954. He wrote this introduction to the Zohar called the Sulam, which means a ladder. A ladder to climb and to help understand and develop the ideas of the Zohar. He believed that many people read and studied the Zohar at face value, which is is such a phenomenal critique to me because I'm thinking, how can you study the Zohar even like the Zohari is not face value? like even if you do take it at face value, you're learning about the spiritual worlds and the spiritual reality. But regardless, I love it. And and that's actually where he had that little fierce exchange with other scholars where he really bemoan the fact that people were not searching for its like inner dimension and meaning. So his project was to really find the inner dimension and meaning behind the words of the Zohar and to help people access it in a way that would truly transform them. He begins his introduction to the Zohar with questions and inquiries that a person would have. I love the beginning with questions because I think that in general when it comes to deep truths about reality first you have to find the questions and the curiosity about them to even want to study about it and whenever we immediately dive into the answers and don't first delve into the questions I think that we miss such a core piece of exploration even for myself to visit these questions which many of them are pretty core questions that many people have around spirituality got me ready to receive the answers Because it awoke that desire to understand the answers. >> Creating the desire. >> Yeah. Creating the desire. There you go. To speak in his language. >> All right. Do you want to begin with some questions? What is our human essence? What is our role in this great chain of being of which each of us is but a small link? When we examine ourselves, we feel that we are defective and low. There is little more despicable than we are. When we examine the maker who made us, we ought to be superior and perfect as a perfect maker ought to make perfect things. Logic dictates that God is the great benefactor and none are greater than him. Why has he created so many creatures who suffer and experience lack during their existence? Good desires to bestow good and certainly not to generate so much suffering. I think that is the biggest, hardest, most controversial question when I talk to people about my growth. And by the way, it started in college with learning and then it became real and embodied in a very very very difficult period of my life which involved a lot of isolation, sickness, uncertainty for people around me is just this idea of how can you have a good God who brings so much pain into the world? And it's very I I I think it's very important to confront this head on because for a lot of people they're just it it really reminds me of if you're a if you're a child and you god forbid had a painful childhood, it's hard to not look at your parent and hold on to a lot of anger. >> And I think a lot of people when they go through life and they experience pain and suffering which is inevitable and a part of life. And I think a lot of Judaism is, you know, how to and this book, the contents of this book is how to use that for elevation and see it as a part of elevation, one and the same. But it's hard to not feel angry. And I think it's probably the num if there's a number one question for the 90% of Jews who are not religious that I think holds them back from delving further. It's that question is just like why me? Like why why would God want to do this to me? M I think it's so important like and I it's it's and it's challenging to answer because if someone comes to you with a horrible tragedy, how are you supposed to I I struggle with it? Like what am I supposed to tell someone, you know? And so I it's exciting to get the tools to be able to talk to people about how to understand why our world works the way it works. I think it's it's it's like a critical part of I think just healing people's relationship with God period. When you talk about the embodiment and expression of your Judaism happening in a time of darkness or suffering in your own life, did you go through that period of disconnect? How did you respond to yourself in that moment when you thought, "How could God create this suffering?" It's really interesting. So, I never want to judge anyone else's experience because I was also coming off of two years of learning >> when this happened. And so, it's not the same as someone who has no context and then experiences negativity. Um, which I think is very different. In my specific case, was there moments of resentment, frustration, pain? Are there 100%. I'm a human being. But at the same time, and this is why I'm so this is why I love Kabad and this is something I really love about Ashog is when you are goal oriented and you have a true belief and experience that belief that there is a future reality where there are no problems and everything is okay. It really gets you through And that idea of whatever you want to call it, salvation, a singularity, a great leap, the messianic era, the vision of a world where there and a version of you where there is no more suffering and you have clarity about why what's happening is happening. I think it helps tremendously to get you through a problem because then I think the worst thing about suffering is if you feel like there's no point. >> It's like that's the most brutal aspect is when it's just >> just for fun. Like could there be something worse? >> Just for fun. >> Yeah. Like but that's how really how some people I think unfortunately internalize >> challenge is like I'm like as though they're being bullied by the world you know versus seeing it as something that has to happen for your good and that actually and this is something Ashog talks about of like about suffering how actually and this is going to sound a little crazy but how it it in of itself is good because it is for this good. >> And not to jump ahead, but this idea of like the three states of the soul, like the soul in its perfect state at the moment of creation and then the soul in this kind of in between state where it's revealing its uh internal essence and doing its tikuimm and then corrections, let's say. I'm very mindful that there are viewers who have no idea what any of these words are. And then the third stage, which is it's like the soul's crossed its finish line and it's in this perfected state. I I love that vision by the way. That's something from Rabbi Kibat's like the true essence of pleasure being like when you watch a marathon runner like breaking through the uh the finish line like the tape of a finish line and you have this feeling of completion >> is like the most and they don't necessarily look happy but it's like the most intense joy is that feeling of completion and oneness >> which is I think the essence of what we're all working towards. I think if you can maintain that experience of wholeness and oneness, it can get you through pain. I know that's what got me through that period in my life and a lot of prayer. I was praying three times a day, which I don't do right now, but at that point, I really needed it. like and I it this was also at a point when my Hebrew was weak and it took me no exaggeration 45 minutes to get through the Amida which is like the prayer that we say three times a day and it has 18 different blessings in it. um kind of like a a road map of all the a very cabalistic prayer that was composed by our our sages that kind of takes you through almost in a mantra like state what you should be thinking about bringing into your life. But just connecting with the transcendent and remembering that this is just temporary >> and it's going to even if it's you know and there's obviously there's no guarantees. Who knows how long something's going to last. We say it's temporary. Life is temporary. >> There's two ways to say nothing matters. One is like this nothing matters and like you with despair. And then there's another which is like oh nothing matters and like you can just kind of like move through with just knowing like what's happening here it matters but also there's something so much bigger >> that that there's a bigger story and it's going to be okay. >> There's a couple things that came to mind. One is chapter 26 of Tanya which speaks about how when a person is experiencing suffering the awareness that suffering or really any experience of darkness in this world is coming from alma discsia which means the concealed world versus alma dcalia which is the revealed world and the reason is is that darkness is not limited by an expression in this world that would have to portray it as good and so it's actually a pure more concentrated version of God's light And it's a very deep and difficult to integrate idea. I think when someone is really in that state of suffering and always in as a teacher it has always felt like a very difficult thing to portray to people when you know that there are people in the room who are suffering and are experiencing this darkness that's being described >> very hard and in a poem by Yoshu November he speaks it's called two worlds exist which is also the the name of his collection he speaks to this chapter of Tanya and to this concept and he says is this something that someone says to another that is suffering divine awareness does not always register as certainty. Faith in the fact that this is true does not always register with enormous conviction. If it would, then we would experience just complete joy and bliss and God's love in those moments of darkness. >> But I think as human beings, what is available to us is that sense of possibility about that being true and that being a source of comfort. And in those moments of darkness, what I have tried to do is to open a tin tiny window >> towards the possibility that this is God's love. Yeah. >> Even if I can't fully experience it. And there is a measure of comfort to knowing it. Even if you're still within the darkness, because inherent within that love and that expression of light is the experience of hardship for the human being. And it doesn't necessarily cancel out the hardship, but it just it just keeps you connected to the truth even as you are being asked to face hardship and darkness. >> Yeah. I think also something that's very healthy and useful is seeing yourself and this work really does this very nicely. seeing yourself as as he just said as a role in this great chain of being of which each of us is but a small link. When your life isn't just about your life like sometimes things happen that are tragic and we don't see the revealed good of it. No >> happens all the time. Yeah. And there's no pretending and trying to see the cup half full of this tragedy. It's a tragedy plain and simple. But at some in some aspect of creation in the in the great play or the simulation however you want to think about it that we are all in here in this physical reality on earth. If you really take to heart and believe with your full being that I am a spiritual being having a physical experience. I am here in this world to complete a mission. And the goal of that mission and all of our missions is to reveal how this world is just, you know, a hallway, a simulation, something to get to, a concealment of this greater unity. Then you can feel more okay with whatever is happening because it's not >> it's not personal. It's it's just it's like there is a writer and the play has to go this way. This is how the play has to go. But it's moving towards this beautiful end. >> And I I say this with a lot of caution because we aren't we are a religion that loves life. We are people that loves life. We we treasure life above all else. And I think there is a dance between holding these ideas and and also standing very very firmly that there is a value to your material existence here and we should do everything to preserve and uplift that life. And holding those two truths at the same time is very important because it's not to say that you know oh everything's just for the sake of something else that's you know we can't see and it's not revealed here and so world the world is bad. No, the world is good. Like God says clearly, we just read embrace sheet like creation is good. And so it's not that this place is bad. It's just we have to we have to um we have to contextualize it >> that it's not everything like it's it's good. It's very good but also and and we are good but also we are again but a small link >> and that just kind of help I don't know it it at least provides us with a greater sense of of a bird's eye view of of certain challenges. I think that that's the the challenge when studying about the spiritual worlds and Jewish mysticism and these concepts which do point to the fact that this world is a simulation or that >> this entire universe is just a part of God's imagination and as long as he's thinking it into existence it exists and if for a moment >> he chose not to think it into existence we would all cease to exist. >> That reality is really mindboggling if you think about it. Yeah. >> On the other hand, to actually believe and trust that the world is real and the proof of that is in the fact that God created the world, >> in the fact that we are told our origin story, like that's the proof that Jewish mystics bring that the world is real, that we are not just a simulation. And it's it I think it's significant that when studying about spirituality, spiritual worlds, the concept of us being just in God's imagination, that we stay very connected to the fact that the world is 100% real. that we we are asked to live within this world and trust our experience of it while holding that se that awareness that there is more to the story than just our world >> that this is not the end of reality. I I think what you're hitting on is this concept which Rob Ashlo takes headon of is Kabala dangerous >> and how do you transmit these ideas without creating a framework for someone that's incompatible with living a happy and healthy life here in this world and like the idea of the four who went to Paris who experienced these great you know mystical truths part ace being as you explained in the last episode the the four levels of revelation within Torah and how to accept that reality in a way that's uplifting and not nihilistic and I if anything I would I would almost think about it more broadly again with this idea of let's not seed let's not make Judaism this and then all other ideas are here like I think so much more is Jewish than we think about and like even some 20th century ideas that uh people who are contemporaries of Rabash >> who were very nihilistic in the face of you know the two greatest wars the world has ever known genocide of the Jewish people there there were also many prominent thinkers that just their understanding of suffering and seeing that maybe this world is an illusion led led them towards nihilism and depression. And I think a lot of the turning back to Torah today is that those frames of reference for reality, I think, did take over a lot of the secular world and they've led people down very unhealthy paths of of of of living. Like I I I just I think that it's a very clear at least for me that's my own personal story is that it's a turn away from what we would see as like enlightened nihilism >> which is I think and or enlightened hedenism which is like nothing matters so then I can just do whatever or nothing matters and so I shouldn't even try to do anything which is I think two predominant illnesses that you you see a lot of people suffering with in in our world. It is this incredible delicate but incredible way to hold these two truths at the same time that you have to take life really seriously. Life is the most important most valuable thing and yet also it isn't life in the sense of our physical embodied lives here isn't the full picture. >> Yeah. That is like a that balance of those two ideas is kryptonite. And there's some there's some eerie stories of cabalists oridic masters who lost their lives in moments of meditation. >> Yeah. who it gives me chills actually even just talking about it because some of the stories of >> people asking another person to be there with them or Rabari Kaplan >> who spoke about someone else being in the room with you that you shouldn't be alone in certain experiences >> and he was found lost in a place where he often meditated at a very young age he died and he passed away and I think these are like really chilling moments that point to how a regular person needs to find the balance between trusting and recognizing that this world is an illusion or I don't I don't actually like the word illusion for that trusting that this is not the full picture of reality our own experiences while also knowing that staying tethered and embodied in the physical world is so significant which is why I think that sometimes those who lean more spiritual and do study these teachings part of their spiritual work is embodiment exercising, grounding, being in nature. And sometimes people who are so invested in the physical world, part of their work is becoming more connected to abstract ideas. Meaning every person has to find their own individual balance that helps them walk that tight rope between divine awareness and human reality and recognizing our role in the intersection of those two and being able to hold both those truths in ways that are healthy and balanced and lead us to deeper connection to Torah. And another point I think that's really big for me there is that it's when we see the intersection the interconnectedness of cabalistic teachings in the full web of Torah ideas and Jewish ideas including the legal aspects of Jewish law and the development of law and living our lives in connection to that. There's something very grounding and embodying about those teachings and mysticism obviously illuminates that even more. I was gonna say it's the mitzvot >> like that's the that's that's what tethers us and and by the way enables us to when we think about how do we share such lofty ideas in a way that both resonates and also is lasting. It's not just like it's one thing to go and have a crazy meditation experience and you're on a high or you know you go to a course and you hear some crazy ideas and you're on a high but you then have to integrate those ideas and actually see a change within. Like if you're not changing if you're not revealing the the godliness within yourself from experiencing such incredible light and your vessel isn't expanding then something in the project is not working and I think the point is that what and I think this is what Ashlo's goal was is we get a new set of eyes through which to look at the mitzvot when we have this framing about the nature of our world. And yet when we're getting this new framing, when we're receiving this new framing about the nature of our world that we're discussing, all the more do you need mitzvot >> just to live in it in a healthy way. And you know, it's a theme that he discusses in the book. It it's it it's really struck me which is that there's there's two paths to moving from not to jump ahead but I I I think it just really fits nicely to move from someone who's a receiver to someone who's a giver and that is Torah and mitzvot or it's through suffering >> and it's an intense idea to read um and I I think the idea being that you can either and again also holding that I don't think anyone asks to suffer or deserves to suffer and I don't think that's what he's trying to say either. I think it's more this idea that and that's why I really like the idea of like a simulation or a video game because it it versus an illusion because a video game has a goal like there is this like end goal where you've like succeeded and you have this completion that you're moving towards where we have to get from point A to point B like we have to get there. And so the idea of the suffering isn't that you have to suffer so that you feel bad about yourself or that you you have to you know in some way humble yourself or or from this kind of negative bullying place. It's more about revealing light and that we have no choice but to get from point A to point B. And that's kind of the point that he's making at different points of the book is we're we're all on a ride together. >> And I think that's also what he's trying to do in in promoting the the inner beauty of the Torah is that I don't think he wants people to suffer. I think it's kind of a warning like please see the value in Torah and mitzvote as a way to avert our suffering. It's very clear that his goal isn't to, you know, god forbid bring calamity. Quite the opposite. He's trying to prevent calamity by showing people the beauty of of what the mitzvah have to offer. >> It is from this place of like extreme love and care >> that that he's trying to share this light with the world. Even myself like I get so embarrassed to be completely honest. Even doing a podcast every time we post a real or when the video is posted I have a pit in my stomach. >> Okay. Say why? >> Because there is just something there is something embarrassing for me personally. It's my own tikun about even if I have passion about ideas about putting myself out there. But then at the same time I think to myself that's it's you you just got to do it because it's an expression of faith that like even if this resonates with one person that's one more person if you really take ashel's point of view that we're going to get there the good way or the bad way then we have to take that seriously and we should bring people along for for a a life full of mitzvot. I I I just really I sincerely believe that. And so that's like what helps me to push through my uh my embarrassment is is just to remember that it's it's it's for this greater greater cause. First of all, okay, there's a couple things. First of all, I love that you actually highlighted the discomfort that you have when sharing on a podcast and sharing in that way because I think that that speaks to what it looks like to actually work from conviction if there are still challenging human emotions that arise in that process. to the point about keeping Torah and mitzvot as a way of averting suffering. I feel a little uncomfortable with that line of thinking because I think that it threatens people and holds something over their heads that seems >> too too godlike for my comfort. >> Yeah. because I don't actually know the path of suffering and what I would think and this is how I would interpret his that idea in ways that align for me with like other ideas within and cabalistic thought and Jewish mysticism is the idea that when we are in a position of suffering we are asked to be undone by the darkness because God is creating something new for us and a brighter light >> and that it's a descent that we are being invited into. And actually the only thing that we have to do is almost let ourselves fall >> and let ourselves crumble and let ourselves experience it because we do not choose our suffering. Obviously there's like self-inflicted suffering and I think that's a totally different conversation and where we're being asked to expand our vessel and sometimes it's suffering that is it does feel random. We know it's by divine choice, but when people are hit with bad news or really difficult experiences, I I do think that like those are moments of just freef falling and to to for me like there's enormous discomfort with like putting that in relation to Torah and mitzvot. I think it's circumstances that God of course is in control of, but that in those moments, and this is something that I've seen over and over again, is it's an invitation for God to just it's an an invitation that darkness can be an invitation from God to endure whatever Hashem is asking us to experience, to crumble, to crack. And from that brokenness, a brighter light is going to emerge. And the trust is just to be able to fully experience what God is setting out to you. And obviously >> we can find strength within it. We can find brightness. And I think I'm often very inspired by people in those moments of challenge when they do. >> But as a message, I feel that the message is as if God is putting us there. It's the trust that a brighter light is coming as opposed to we did something to deserve this or earn this that >> I I completely I completely agree. I think I also think the word suffering is limited in suffering isn't just I think when he says it's we're going to get there through suffering or through to mitzvah I don't think it's the way in English we might hear and think about the word suffering. I think we think like when I hear the word suffering I think about natural disasters illnesses like god forbid like the worst of the worst. I even just I think we should make it more small and relatable even of just like the suffering of feeling like you wake up in the morning and and you don't have a clear sense of like how and where your day should map out. Like I think it's like even >> and I I love this idea of suffering as to which is chaos and chaos as undirected potential >> which is exactly what you're saying. It's a gift because now when you're not in a structured domain, you have the ability to be a creator which is very powerful. It's the ultimate power. And so that's a part of the descent where you can really feel authentically grateful like okay I'm hitting bottom but uh you know now I have the chance to reimagine and reinvent. as scary as that might be, it still is an opportunity and it's about seeing it as the opportunity that it is. I think um I think it's a very powerful concept and I agree with you. I don't I the idea that it's I think that this concept that he puts forward of we're going to get there through to meet vote or we're going to get there through suffering is also contextualized by his idea that he says it's not the soul that's suffering it's the impermanent aspects of oneself. Like as painful as that might be, it's again this idea of the three stages of the soul. Like there is a there is a version of you because God the the the total unity and the oneness of our world is it's beyond the way that we experience time and space. And we have very good proofs and and and examples in in in science of this idea that we experience time in a very specific way that is not necessarily how it works. It's it's a subjective experience of time rather than the object objective experience of time and space. But that uh there is a version in this unification of time and space of your your soul that is whole and perfect and complete and that that exists within you. And that the suffering isn't suffering as in eternal damnation or punishment or like that is not a Jewish concept. It's just not not a Jewish concept. Not what he's talking about. It's more the pain of transforming your nature. And I think the point of it is not about pain. It's more are you going to transform your nation your your are you going to transform your nature of your own accord which is Torah and mitzvot or are you going to transform your nature through the force of experiencing life >> because we all we all here's a truth that's very casually accepted is just you grow as you experience things like I think everyone would agree that like through the totality of life life's experiences and this is why we say elders have wisdom doesn't matter You don't need to be religious. Just that through living you accumulate experience that transforms you from someone who is a taker and a receiver in your most infantile state to a giver. And that's like the vision of a healthy person. And so I think his point is not so much about punishing people. It's more just that there is a fast track which is the mitzvot but that anyways and I I agree with you like it's kind of like it's not like just because you're practicing mitzvote suddenly you're averted from all problems like that's like a very dangerous incorrect >> not true way of thinking. I think it's more just this idea of taking things on of your own will and your own accord versus just and it is its own form of trust. Just trusting that you're going to have to just learn your lessons along the way and they're going to happen. Like what's going to happen is going to happen and >> you know it's its own believing and looking at suffering or the pain of human existence in that way is it's its own form of amuna. >> I think I had a friend say this to me. She said that she after experiencing some life challenges, she started to challenge herself to put herself in experiences and circumstances cuz she said, "I want to create those challenging experiences where I'm going to grow as opposed to waiting for life to give them to me." >> And then in the in the interim doing in the interim not necessarily growing in the same to the same extent. >> I love what you said about how we recognize that as you experience life, you develop wisdom. We also recognize that as you are exposed to new information, you develop wisdom. And it's precisely in both of those. And Torah is wisdom, divine wisdom. Mitzvot is life experiences of the divine. >> So it's like such a beautiful natural translation. It's through studying the Torah, through doing these having these experiences of divine revelation, through the acts of mitzvah, which we recognize and study through the Torah, we develop a spiritual wisdom through our embodiment of the ideas and experiences of it. So that to me would be a beautiful spiritual lens on what it means to develop wisdom through our actions and through the information that we interact with. >> Yeah. >> And explore. It's interesting because it's kind of like I think Ashlo we were talking about this he's this incredible bird's eye view of what's happening on this personal level cosmic level and then there's the how and not directly in this text but I think works really nicely with this text is the idea of Musar and which is like refinement of your character and refinement of your your inner qualities. I think it works really nicely with this concept of just being the active driver in your own life. And this idea of free will and again this is I think another big question right up there with suffering is how is there both a divine plan and yet also room for free will. >> Mhm. And free will is such an important core belief in Judaism that we have choice and that you know we don't believe in this idea of just leaving things up to fate. It's >> literally considered like like idol worship. You you have to view yourself in viewing yourself as a piece of the divine. You have to view yourself as possible of of the creation of your own world and and a creator in in the world around you. And so this idea of taking on where you see resistance which is I think when Ashelog talks about expanding your vessel and and this idea of tikun of like seeking out the path of resistance like the what's that phrase the obstacle is the way >> such a Jewish idea really resonates with me like I I I really believe in this idea of taking on ch and you see it in a very it's very simple. It's like, okay, choosing to go to the gym, going to the gym is hard, but when you choose to go to the gym, not obviously there's no guarantees in life, but you're radically changing your odds of of facing certain illnesses every time that you decide to wake up a little bit early to exercise or you make the choice to eat right. Like, we see this in the most simple aspects of what it means to be a happy, you know, wellintegrated human being. And I think it's just about I think what what Ashelog has to offer is is seeing that beyond just these like mundane aspects of like okay there's eating right, there's working out, but then there's there's also all these other levels of what does it really mean to take seriously this idea of taking on challenges as a part of your project like in your reactions towards others. in in your own behavior and then also obviously in the external world around you. But just viewing that as as a part of the project of what it means to be a whole person >> is really excellent idea. >> Yeah, I like that a lot. And and not to shy away from those challenging experiences that will bring us to a stronger sense of self. It's empowering because it puts you back in the driver's seat. like instead of oh why am I having resistance in this relationship or with this person whether it's you know your your spouse or another family member a friend some kind of a situation your in-laws whatever it is instead putting yourself in the driver's seat of I'm going to be the proactive person to go against my nature >> we think about the hero's journey as something that's you know over here And then but we're grounded in um mitzvot and it's kind of like this idea of routine and rhythm. But I I just see that as that's what's grounding you in what should be the face of a massive adventure where you do not know what your day is. If you already know exactly >> every aspect of what your day is going to look like that it's like that's too much >> rigidity. the the point of the mitzvot is to ground you because you are accepting and bringing in the toou >> like you you also need the tooo and I think that's a part of what uh I think it's a part of what this text is also trying to get at is that it's you're not in a perfected state when you've averted adventure >> like it's very easy to create a very boring life and then say that you're enlightened. Like no, the the the the point of and it's like this idea, we were talking about this on the phone of when we think about who our fearless leader is going to be that's going to take us into our perfected state of the world. There is this teaching that Messiach wrestles and enters darkness to bring light. Like he's not off, you know, preserved in an ivory tower isolated and kept in like all, you know, white unstained clothing and like how could he look in the eye of a of commoner? Opposite opposite on an adventure. that is a person on an adventure and like they're that's like the I I feel like that's what strikes me as the correct energy to bring to life when we're talking about this balance again of this world matters and yet there's a bigger picture. The marriage of those two energies to me is the spirit of adventure >> because [clears throat] you take life seriously but not so seriously that you can't take a risk. >> Mhm. >> And you have to be encountering the risks. Okay. I can't even say how much I loved you bringing in that phrase, the spirit of adventure and how very often we look at mitzvot as being these routines and habits that we're going to be integrating into our lives and creating sameness or order and structure and instead looking at Judaism as this call to a great adventure. I see this the most. I see this very clearly in our calendar in the Jewish holidays, which technically we cycle to the exact same holidays every single year, but you see how this is the vessel for us to infuse and experience the great light that is inherent within the vessel. But is an opportunity to go on like such a trip through the entire year, such an adventure, such a deeper exploration of the themes of each holiday, how they impact the entire world, how they impact our own lives, how they impact every single part of who we are. And you really see that like journey happening through our calendar. And then to look at our day as well as being something that we can adventure through through the lens of our spiritual practices. An example of that for me would definitely be prayer. Prayer is an opportunity to go on this adventure to journey with your soul daily. And because of the fact that we have this incredible anchoring in the vessel and the words of prayer themselves, sometimes we could miss that inner dimension of adventure spirit really being in a state of openness to what it has to offer us. >> Cabala speaks a lot to the cosmic reality, to the sphere, to the divine attributes. And then theidic practice has often been about devos like attachment and cleaving to god and prayer and all of these like daily practices which draw down that cosmic reality into the person's experience and sense of adventure in their daily life where those lofty spiritual ideas now become playgrounds for me to experience, wrestle with, and journey with divinity on a daily basis in ways that I don't always know where they will lead. I love that playgrounds. It's so true because that is the energy that we should bring. Like when we talk about, you know, our our service and our prayer being simple, what does that really mean? It's about approaching it with a in a healthy way. Not simple like the ideas are simple, but simple like we don't need to over complicate it and we can just have joy like a child. the like the enthusiasm that you have as a young person when you learn something that's exciting. Like I remember I went through a whole phase around age 10 with carnivorous plants like Venus fly traps and I was just so taken and I I would read all these books and I know that sounds random but I just had this unbridled enthusiasm and it was so fun to just delve into something and feel no shame or u self-consciousness about what I found to be interesting. And I think approaching these ideas with that same kind of energy that we should be latching on to what speaks to our soul and we should not be afraid to use that energy to just see it everywhere and and play and go on a journey with these ideas in our life. It's not like it's only something that's very serious in our book and then we close our book and like no where have you been experiencing that play that you're describing right now in your life in your Judaism where you do feel that just like unbridled enthusiasm passion ability to just explore and discover. I think to ground it back in this book and Ashlo's point like I'm going to just read something he said. He says, "When I met with the people, I clearly saw their spiritual poverty, their ignorance, and their foolish ways. Here there is no clear voice in the wisdom of the Cabala. They just see Kabala as a collection of words and names with no parable and its solution, only literal words." And I think where I experience the playground is just if you really take these ideas seriously, then they're not just ideas. They're you're you're in it. You're in it every day. I invite you to try to take even just one small concept, if there even is such a thing as a small concept, but take one singular concept and give yourself a set period of time to see how that concept maybe shows its face in your life. And if it doesn't, it doesn't. But at least in my case, the more I learned, the more clear it became that living by this picture of reality and living as though these laws are true led towards an experience of life that felt more fruitful. and meaningful and connected. It's hard to sometimes even put it into words. I think it's really one of those things that you just have to experience yourself to believe. But it is kind of this this question that we were discussing is how do you measure if something is true? what what necessarily how do you measure is it is it in how useful the idea is is it in something measurable its literal correctness I think in I think in Ashog's case the way he thinks about it and I I do think it's a very it's it's a great way to kind of battle test these ideas is just play with them. They're not they're not lofty esoteric ideas that are meant to be locked away in a book. And I think that's the beauty of of doing this kabuta of this group study is to show people that in the same way that you might read, you know, any famous, you know, self-help, you know, pop psychology author and you take some key phrase or concept of theirs and we feel very comfortable just applying it and and seeing it. There's no reason we shouldn't be taking how the creator of the world told us the world is created and using that in our life. >> Like feel free and feel comfortable to use it. And I think like the more comfortable I get to use these ideas, the more clarity I have. I think it's the core point actually. I feel more and more and more and more clear and like the clarity is like the the the peace if that makes sense and the clarity is happening through seeing the ideas that you are playing with in your life bearing fruit. I think a story of life as we saw in Brit. If we really take the Torah to be both macrocosmic and microcosmic, an idea about us, it's the story of how do we go from darkness into light and from chaos into order. And so when you find a tool that or you you find a you find a way to structure your reality that productively turns chaos into order in our human experience. That's a testament to its truth in a way that that that is productive. >> You know, I'm thinking about it. The the one part of it that I call into question is just that I do think people can create structure with really bad ideas >> and rigidity. And that's the part of me that's reluctant in what I just said and uncertain because you do need also something to measure against. How do you know something is fruitful for the good? >> Mhm. >> Like you can be climbing a ladder and you just climbed it and you're at the top but it was the wrong ladder. >> Mhm. >> And suddenly you have to climb all the way back down and figure out which ladder you're going to start climbing up. And I for sure have had that experience. I loved your challenge. I loved that challenge that you just said, which is the invitation to anyone listening to take an idea and to test it in their lives for 30 days. I think once you test it, you can kind of examine whether or not it holds. And I want to take that challenge upon ourselves. I want to ask both of us, too, cuz I'm like, if we're going to challenge other people, we got to challenge ourselves. Let's take an idea. We'll hold each other accountable. One idea that you want to apply and test. How how long? 30 days. 30 days. Sure. 30 days. >> 14 days. >> 14 days. because we're going to we're actually going to do it. What's your what's your concept? I think the idea I'm going to take on is giving as non-judgment and seeing that as like giving when there's resistance. I think it's a very good, healthy, practical idea for me to take on from from Ashelock. Okay. The idea that I'm going to take on is being first, being proactive, being the one to face the resistance and to do it first. So like in a disagreement to be the first one to kind of step out of it and to create a new reality in a moment of disconnection. So honestly I'm so happy for and everyone I'm in a relationship for these next 14 days. >> I know. [laughter] [gasps] >> This is your golden period. [laughter] [gasps] >> Oh my gosh, that is amazing. Um, but I think that's mine to be first, to face the resistance, to recognize that every moment of resistance is an opportunity to soften into the circumstances that God is giving me where I'm being invited to expand my vessel to be humbled to be a creator of the reality of connection. By the way, can I tell you how many times I would hear an idea, I would be taken by it. I would try to bring it forward in my consciousness and integrate it into my life. It didn't really resonate or land. I moved away from it and then years later it would pop back up in my face. >> Yes. Yes. Yes. >> All the time. Sometimes you're just not ready for something. And this is something I love about the idea of Torah is cyclical. You really do every every experience you have, you come back to these ideas in a different way. I really believe that like there are things that especially now through the transformation of being a parent and and just experiencing more of life. You you just certain things hit in a different way. >> You're new. You are new. Yeah. >> Exactly. >> So you think the ideas the ideas become renewed because you're seeing them again in a different light. >> Yeah. you just you understand them in a in a deeper way. And again, not to there's again to delineate between like tragic, horrible, painful suffering, catastrophic suffering and let's say like the the suffering of just the suffering that is kind of like the default state in many ways for a human being where I think we would all kind of say and agree because we're working towards this reality where joy is a devolved date, but we're not there yet in the in the way that like if we're not working towards it, we just have some degree of suffering. I had an experience actually yesterday where I I was so embarrassed by something. It was accidental, but it was very embarrassing that you >> and that I experienced yesterday. >> Okay. and even just suffering which is such a big word for like a small embarrassment but like let's just whatever for me I felt embarrassed and even just that small embarrassment in of itself opened me up in a new way to some of these ideas Because again, it's just like it's another every time something like that happens, it's another reminder that and you have to tap into this energy of like, okay, there's a bigger picture. And I'm finally getting to the point where I think in the past I might have really and I think this is a natural evolution of of aging. And maybe it's something especially I think in certain ways specifically in women where you are in this period of heightened self-consciousness. I think that I'm like moving away from as I've become older where I was just able to like truly laugh at myself and like actually find it funny. And I don't think in my earlier stages of my 20s I would have been able to do that. But it's because I was just much more attached to the character >> as opposed to the soul. Like I'll tell you something so embarrassing. I used to cry. Like if I had a breakout, it would like make me cry. I would freak out. >> Like and it's pain. Don't get me wrong. It can be it's horribly painful to feel like you're not your outside doesn't reflect your inside. But when I think about like all the things I've experienced since the point that I would cry about like getting a pimple before going to a party, I'm able to like really laugh at myself. >> Yeah. >> Does that make sense? Whereas the suffering in that moment was so real. >> Mhm. >> I actually love that you brought in like that experience of suffering cuz let's move away from like the extreme versions of suffering or even like the you know the real processes we go through in our lives. Even those small moments of embarrassment are small moments of embarrassment is a perfect way of putting it. like allowing those to expand us and to to be embarrassed and to allow that to like open us up to ideas to be able to laugh at ourselves to also witness our growth in those moments to say in the past I was so attached to my character that a breakout would have broken me and now I'm more attached to my essence so it might be unpleasant but it doesn't break me. >> Yeah. Exactly. And >> that's a moment of growth. I even think like even in this idea of let's say moving away from the bigger more catastrophic and tragic pain. It's on another level but it is in so far as I understood it when I was delving into these ideas in these moments of like more significant pain and suffering. It is just like it's a totally different level and the vessel you need to have is on another level. And I'm not saying I had it by any stretch of the imagination. Only sharing it in so far as it's a a a learning is just that's kind of like a microcosmic experience of how to think about those bigger experiences. And I I think it's useful to think about it that way because then it doesn't it doesn't break your world in the same way that it might when we put it in another category. Like something I've gotten so much strength from like making it again very real world is like when you listen to the testimonies of some of these widows >> in the war that just thank God I mean I don't know now the ceasefire broke but when you listen to some of these widows when you listen to the hostages like that's real catastrophic suffering like that is on a whole new level and yet like something so simple. But one of the hostages, he was facetiming with Omar Adam and he was telling him how his songs got him through and like humming his songs got him through his isolation in the tunnels. And I think one of the songs was Modi, which is just like going through like basic things to be thankful for. And and this idea of in the song of like and you know the pain will end, the suffering will end like this idea of like having faith that there is a point when you'll be able to look back and I don't want to say laugh but at least feel like you can integrate the experience I think is like Very It's very very powerful to be able to like tap into that future you. >> Yeah. And hold that perspective. Yeah. >> Back to that openness. Yeah. Beautiful. >> Thank you. >> Thank you, Tanya. >> I'm excited for part two. [laughter] >> Yeah. This is great.