Ki Seitzei: The Arizal's Hesped For the Ramak - What Really Happened??? - The Historical Controversy

this torah class is brought to you by torahanytime.com okay good evening everyone actually we have a really fantastic subject tonight it's based on something we may have mentioned in the past but it will really open up for us a whole new subject that i don't believe we've ever seen before the apostle says in parashat if somebody has a sin maves with a capital judgment and and he will die and he will be killed in other words somebody has a sin and he's liable to capital punishment for humas and they kill him now we know that is that kalhaneskalam nislan anyone who gets skiller they hang him afterwards the salisa is and they hang him on a tree so tara says he's so land of loss i always don't let his body remain hanging overnight cover take miranda by yamaha you got to bury him on that day kill alas it is the disgrace of god that is hanging rashi explains that a person was created with selamat like him our physical features resemble that of god so if somebody sees that a person is hanging they'll think is in that matzah because we look so similar gives the martial if the king has a twin brother who's a criminal so if they're going to hang him they have to let the body down overnight otherwise people are going to think the king is hanging do not defile your land hashem that hashem your god gives you as an inheritance okay that's the simple meaning of the pasik he's hanging however the whole day they can't leave him overnight look a minimal amount of time we let him hang but he can't hang uh for the entire night that's the simple meaning of the passage however in the safe havoc now the khaba are not to be confused with ruby or bachrach but this is the kabul by rebel lazar khalil not to be confused with rebelliour the python this is an achroin who lived at the end of the 18th century he gave a hespid now this rav revelation khalid was a rav in zav ludov and rachnitz and kalin and he composed the safer arch and the five megaliths and he gave the following he delivered the following words and he recounted a hespid that was given by none other than rav misha israelis who is the masjid asulas drama who did he give the hesitate for none other than his illustrious father-in-law rav shalom now shalom is a name that may not be as familiar as rama but was the greatest authority in all of europe in the 16th century drama and his rebbe was a biakov palik who introduced the new method of talmudic study called topo which is really impossible to explain because we have nothing to compare it to but it was some kind of intellectual gymnastics and they would use complicated convoluted analytics to try to train the mind of the talmudim and this was a a very big discussion whether this is a proper way to learn the marau was beamingly opposed to it many guidance were opposed to it but rabbi akov palik who was the god he introduced the system it was followed by his student and many great talmudim including the rama who became his son-in-law including rav david ganz okay so how did i learn before just playing gamora and rashi and prices and they were learning more straightforward and shakna the straightforward or the gymnastics so now the ra and the safer sheriffs you saw he brings that if you looked in the ramaz gamora on sanhedrin where it talks about the name of mashiach the rama in his handwriting wrote i say the name of mashiach is shachna my father-in-law like the pasik says so this is the esteem that the uh was held and um like his rebbe did not write down any of his sakim and on his matseva of rabbsham it says that he was marabeth's torah for 40 years without being paid and which is a great feat okay basically he had thousands of tamidim um that anybody in europe was was uh a student of sham shafna in any event drama in lublin he was a robin lublin mm-hmm [Applause] if a man will have hate now the word hate means missing like when david was approached by basheva and bashar says david when you die me and will be missing will be missing a missing that's what the word hate means in fact there's another proof kaileya what does it say in in the navy you could shoot to a hare's breath and not miss hate means missing so the ramos said as follows if a man will have hate he'll be missing a reason to die why would somebody be missing a reason to die because they're at sadhak they never sinned so instead of translating the israel if a man will have a sin they translated it they will be missing a reason to die this is what the rama said about his illustrious father-in-law he'll be missing a reason to die the humas and the guy dies in other words you see nebuchadnezzar somebody who is dying and he doesn't have a reason to die he never committed a sin why did he die the salisa is hinge it blame it on the primordial sin of admirishine that when adam ate from that fruit the verdict of mankind is man always has to die whether somebody sins or somebody doesn't sin man always has to die like the gemaran says four people died because of the bite of the snake what does that mean who which four people benjamin son of yaakov amram father of moisha yeshi father of david kill of son of david so even if someone never sins you're one would end up dying because of the original sin of the marisha so this is what the rama said about his illustrious uh schwer that he said his fair never sinned and he has no reason to die so why did my shiver die if a man has hate he's lacking he's missing mish bad mothers a judgment of death the whom us and yet he dies how can we wrap our mind around that crack our head around it the salisa blame it on the tree blame it on the on the sin of the eighth which is an incredible way to read the passage simply put if somebody committed a sin and their judgment is death hang him on a tree no the rama said on if a man will be missing a reason to die and and he dies anyway blame it on the sunnah so i came across the save for this week called the hassela by rev farsal and he brings at the end of the sapphire an article that his father wrote now i don't know who he is you know who he is yeah who is he he's recently yeah here's your rebbe in israel wow okay there you go so he bring who's his father so he brings an article that his father wrote what's his name again am i pronouncing it correctly what's his name threshold there you go okay that's what it says um number three okay so okay contemporary i figured and he brings from his father that rebellizer kalier again an acharya not to be confused with the python gave a hespid in 1785. um excuse me he yes himself gave a hespit in 1785 and he set over a hespid that the rama gave on of shalom and this is very suspicious why is it suspicious because when did rabsham shakna pass away he passed away in 1558. when did the when did the dash live when did he give this hesped in 1785 that means for 230 years nobody knew that rama gave this hesperum of shalms we have no evidence for 230 years from the time of died until the khadas in his safer chavo the aryaka or the arkhadas he wrote all three swaram wrote a hester that he gave based on the hasbro that rama said for absalom so it is somewhat curious that a period of 230 years passed and we have no information that the rama said that until the year 1785. fine so repression continues we have another evidence that drama gave this hospital also in somewhat of a rare safe are called yara hawaii a san jose from rappaport and he has another very important diek in this passage because apostate says simply it means if a person will have a judgment of death but what does hate mean where does he come into this basic if it just means a person was sentenced to that they should say the abish mishpat mothers somebody has a sentence of that what do you mean a sin of a sentence to death the word of hate is extra and what does it mean obviously as if he has he's going to be killed so he quotes a shot that the rama said now interestingly he does not say that rama gave this shot as a hesped on his father and law he just quotes the this is the shot of the rama that hate could mean a little different than the khaba says that hate means missing hate could also mean purity now how does hate mean purity like what exactly or vegeta is so purify the house so he reads the rama rather like this if man will have hate he's pure of ishvan mothers of a reason to die if a man will be pure of a reason to die the whom us and yet he dies here you have a guy he said sadiq is no reason to die there's no reason for something bad to happen to him he's admitted he's pure of a reason to die and yet he dies why did he die the salisa is hinged that's a it's a murder shot if somebody dies you see somebody a righteous person that passes on and they have no reason to die at the end of the day everyone has to go because of the sin of the eighth hadas this is what was the said over by rabbi rampaport and the safer yarach on him this is what the ramos said no that just that the rama offered this shot however not that the rama said it at the hospital that he doesn't say now the safeway was published in tough nun also a little curious that for 240 years we have no record that the rama said this now here we come to the whopper because i've known this shot for a very long time i remember i once heard from malay obama i must have said it over many times i'm sure if you've been hearing the shurim you've heard this before ravionisan ibishits so i'm working on an english safer on tu baswat it's almost ready any day and i just quoted the ciaras divas the rubbing writes in the aristowash that not that there are magi the hesperfur of even more incredible that at the levaya of the ramak who's the ramak the major court of arrow it was just his yard site and he's the author of the term of the voyra the ramak was nifter in 1570 so the uh nifter in 1558 there are macros from 1570. and at his leviah who attended his avaya none other than they are risal and who was most pedestrian other than they are and what did the arizona say at the leviathan of the ramak we don't know who tells us rabiani sinai bishops what is the vietnamese and i should say number six that re was doirish at the ramaks if a man will be missing a reason to die and the hummus and he died the talisa is you should hang it on the senate so still it's very suspicious because the ramach was lifted in 1570 and robbie anderson ibishits as we're about to see was the rav in much later very good altona hamburg vanzbeck in 1750. so we're talking about 180 years with nobody ever saying a word that the arizona said this about ramak now that would be huge you would think that the arizona's hesped for the ramak was probably like the most all-time famous hespet and yet the first record of this is reviews in about the years 17. there you go 50. rabianis and abrasions got to a who we have over here number seven in the second paragraph in the the end of the year tough cuff that's 1750 and he was nifter and elo 1764. so this hesped was given sometime between 1751 and 1764 a good 180 years after the arizona said the husband so now i was remembering where he got this from no he took it for granted that this is a dover udua now i was remembering yesterday that i i thought i saw this somewhere else and sure enough brings down in this week's parasha number eight now when did the khida live i didn't realize that was pretty late that was 1724 to the 1806. brings down in the nfl if a man will have a sin and a judgment of death so he darshans he says by the way the arizal said at the hespid the khida get it from and this was amazing to me because we did once point out that the khida in the shame haggadilam where he lists all the dhyalam who lived before him you have one you guys say i have a shame agolam next time you go to the swarm store you got to buy yourselves a shame on them they just came out with a brand new one with like all kinds of footnotes yeah brother finder told me he just got it i spoke to him yesterday yeah no here's you have a guy the guy yonko beryl never committed a sin and yet he died why did he die it's because uh it's because because of the it's hadas because mankind has a zuhama in them and the only way to get it out is to go into the earth and the order is representation it's a sin but the person who died never sinned it's because his ancestor adam the answer because he is a descendant so he has no choice but to pay the price for what other mauritian did so now we once mentioned that there is a goddaught one of a number of guys who the khida does not list in the shame of dumb he does not list rubens and ibishits apparently he did not want to get involved in that but in the safer dvaram which is the safer of his drastics says this chat that if you see someone who dies and he doesn't have a reason to die hinge it on hinge it on that's what it looks like you put on your special glasses your your your sin looking glasses you go to there's a special store on central avenue you can buy special guy you could tell you know that result could look at you and see what you did for those who are able to tell you put on those glasses and you see the guy never did a sin but the kid says where did i get this from i saw it in the yaristavas which means the only source for the hespen that that rizal gave on the ramak is rabbi sanavashits even the khida who quotes it he tells us where he got it from he got it from the or the arastovas okay so um and rabbi pershall if i'm saying it correctly he writes nahal was published in 1795 to 1797 in levarno and the khida himself says in the dvara mahadam which was published in 1788 says he got it from the aristobash so again i'm not here to give a history share today i'm here to discuss a different point ahash kafa but we might get into the history a little bit so so far so good okay that was about 200 years later after the hospital no 40 years 40 50 years he died he was alive no no excuse me he was alive the sin the the safer the lived from 1724 to 1806. so he the hedonist or he heard about him he heard about him however the um was published in 1795. here is the most juicy part of this year and maybe any show we said this year there was a great rabbi living in sas his name was rev mordechain the great lion and the guri hari are the lion cubs because they are like the students of the students of the arena he had a rebbe ravisral d koreal we saw deep corial was a a talmud of the arizong and his student was rab mordechai amazingly remur khan one of the great rabbinam and sass had to leave zfass and take up rabbanus in aleppo in syria why he didn't have parnassa he wrote a classic safer on hamish called i'm sure many of you may have heard of the safer torah not to be confused with the shachanyardaya it's a little bit of a kabbalistic work it's like quasi parsha quasibshad quasi kabbalah shah torah mordechai hakoen the exact opposite of what the rama supposedly said and the exact opposite of what the arizona supposedly said about the ramak not only did he say the opposite but as we're going to see he holds that the shot that's being attributed to the arizal and the rama that the house division it's wrong not only is it wrong it's a navala and let's read the words look at number 11. you're going to see a guy who seems to be missing a reason to die if by me don't let it entertain in your mind to say m regional argument don't entertain the idea this guy is perfect the only reason he died is because he's a descendant of adam marie shine no you want to say like this you see a guy hate misha mothers you think he's missing a reason to die the hummus and he dies this alisa is you want to blame it on the it's hadas sayala aids don't hinge this nivola on the sin of the eighth hadas this is disgusting it's despicable this hashgaffer is a navala to say the rebound took away somebody that never did a sin only because of the sin of the aids hadas that means the reborn of some did didn't beloy then he conducted judgment without reason you're speaking lush and hard about three bonus shot better to say the guy did a sin than to speak badly about god to me this reminds me of when rev victor miller used to speak about the events of 1939 to 1945 and he obviously a very sensitive subject and people used to say how how could you say reasons you're speaking badly about the kadoshim and he would say you know and then what say speak last night about to be banished so this was an interesting debate to me this is the exact same thing they died without sin but for us to see also apparently because of admiration that's the cash on him that's akash you mean you're saying we know there is such a phenomenon okay good point and along comes this gentleman and he says i disagree with all three of them well he doesn't quote them he may not have known they said that i'm saying right yeah yeah we're going to discuss that we're going to say now listen to this so listen the guy is missing a reason to die the whom us and he on the tree what should you do with such a thought can it cover sickbarreno bury it don't let it enter your mind don't enter don't let it enter your thoughts it's disgusting it's the disparagement of hashem don't defile your body your body is called abdominal because your body comes to the abdomen this is the defilement of the soul of the defilement of the gup you're not allowed to think that so in other words that which the said the rama said on rabbi and that which the son said the rama not only is it wrong it's disgusting it's a naval heaven forbid to ever say such a thing exactly what i said so to me now we're there are two ways of taking this the pershall is studying this from historic perspective which is not that interesting which is not that important to me right now it's interesting it's important but i'm not here to give a history sure but i do i do want to discuss the history but to me what's much more important than the history is which hashgraph is correct if somebody sees a great saddek passing on should should one say look they're sin free and uh why'd they die because uh because of the simulated is that this is that an ebola is what that what is attributed to these great godolms is that wrong or is it a valid in other words are we go would we go like the shakhala torah or would we go like what robbie anderson ibishops is attributing to ariza now in general you always have mahalika sin in hashgaffa there's you know one of the most important signs of maturity and learning is recognize that almost everything is a matter of different opinions it's not shiver that there's a mahoikas but to me it's somewhat bothersome to have such a wide mach like us especially the shacha later is arguing on what robbie anderson irish it's attributed to the ari so as we're going to see rabbi prashal feels that it must be that the rama never gave this hespit and the ari didn't say the hasbit and as we're going to see this hesped was perhaps given by some other goddamn and over the time some of the facts got a little bit switched so for example as follows the look at number 13 the tinus the says straight up this shot number 13. who says exactly if a man will be missing a reason to die and he dies blame it on the etadas and the quotes now i try to look it up i saw what the shla is referring to in the tikkunis you can look it up it's in hamishi it's very hard to read what that desire is actually referring to this but let's let's um learn what rebbe pershall says and then let's try to study it from a different perspective right okay i mean [Music] well he doesn't believe that you have to uh divorce stolen means no of course i'm not questioning your anyone is allowed to say a drush but no that's not the question the question is but the hashkafa behind the drush the rabbi understand ibishits fields it's a valid hashgaffer that if somebody dies you could say they don't have any sin they died because of sin about the marishan but the shah latoya says that hashgaffer is a naval you're not allowed to say that so how do you have such a wide mach like is some say that rizal says you're allowed to say that in fact that results said it about ramak so in other words what rabbi nissan ibishit says that resolve said about the torah calls it a novella so how do you have something that one of the great old-time godowners says that rizal said and a student of arie called that notion navala how's that possible who says this over there number 12. yes but he's going against more than that because we have we have it's a known fact in other words what will the torah say about the phenomenon that four people died without sin so i believe he would say those four people died without sin they were people in the hamish there were people back in the times of tanach benyamin yishai but to say about someone in our times or even five hundred years ago that we're not authorized to do we know in sadiq baratheon conclusion is as follows he says he is highly suspicious that the arizal ever gave this husband or that rama ever gave the asset regarding the rama he says it can't be we know the shla was a student of a student of shalom shakna dashla's father was a student of the rama you don't think the schla growing up would have heard the hespid that rama gave under that he would have to quote a tikkune zayar why wouldn't he say this is the hasbit the rama gave on i personally don't really hear that argument the shell is a classic safer he's not going to bring why would he have to bring araya from a story it's a much better raya to quote desire who says beferosh this is sean so i'm not so compelled by that question regarding the arizal he says how could it be that the terror who is a student of rabbis d coriello would have said that that this idea as a naval wouldn't he have known from his rebbe that the arizona gave this hospital he lived in smash i mean if you're living in space in the times of that reza you're going to know what that rizal said at the ramak slavaya so therefore he sort of dismisses the fact that the ari really gave this hesped or that rama really gave this has bid and he suggested as follows a couple years ago in the summer i was in italy i was actually there twice and we went to the cover of ravmayr katzen ellenbogen maharam padua and he had a son now ramir katzen allenbogen was from poland he was a grandson of mahari mintz he had a son called shikh who is shikh shmuel yehuda katsunalen bogan okay he's uh his father is maram padua and he was an italian rabbi one of the daughters who gave the hesped for shemo you the katsuna bogan none other than arya of modino we once spoke about him in the past years ago and he no no connection relation affiliation or any association at all with my ramshack that's just his name shmuel yehuda maram shikh got his last name because uh when they instituted last names he chose shikh shem israel kaidash that's where that came from yeah so the rabjen gave a hespid for rabzalman katz of manitoba and he said this man was such a sadiq there was no hasid like this rav zaman katz we know the word ish is is a name of khashevas kulam kiyabi-ish you're going to see a very harsh person hate he's going to be missing a reason to die but he so why did he die one of two reasons either the humas other people killed him because we know there's a concept that hashem sometimes brings kapara to the whole dar through it's sadiq so he reads the passage he was killed because of others the muslim visited the sins of others upon the sadiq the hummus or the salisa is or hinted on the sin of the etadas because says although there's no sadduce there's no righteous person that never sinned but this man does not have a reason to die so why did he die one of two reasons either of a humas either because of the sins of others or because of the sunnah lived from 1521 to 1597. he lived in the times of drama and that rizal he printed this hespid this safer was first printed in the year and it was not printed again for 200 years so what prashal suggests is that rizal never said this has been we have no evidence that results of this aspect the ramon never said this has been we have no evidence rama ever said the husband we know of shmuel yehuda casanova and bogan gave the husband but then his saver went out of print for 200 years and it could be that as the story was sort of passed over some of the names got now i'm not going to comment on that it's hard to prove such a thing i'm not sure if we need to say such a thing maybe until the rubyness and i bishops it was well known this is what derezel said or what ramos said and nobody recorded it maybe people didn't record stories i don't know i'm not going to comment on that but i'm here to comment on the following issue how in the world is it possible that a hashgaffer that ruby anderson ibishits feels is sound because he says that reason said it that the says is valid because he says that the arizona said is a naval i mean isn't that uh that's such a wide macholicas that some say it's correct it's so correct that rizal himself said it and some say it's a falsehood it's a disgusting hashgaffer that's pretty wide so good so we want to try to reconcile is there any way to reconcile the opinion of urbanism that it's so correct that really rama said it with the shah who says it's a naval so i have one of three answers they're all uh posit they're all theory but we'll see what you think the first one is what rabbi is rabbi yossi says there's a thousand yarder that says at a hespet are you allowed to exaggerate had a husband let's say a guy claims you know he divined with a minion five and a half days a week are you allowed to say he died in that minion every day the week are you allowed to exaggerate at a heisman the task says your lad exaggerate a little bit a little bit you could exaggerate because everybody is a little bit better there are different ways of understanding it the words of the ta's are because everybody would have done a little bit better if they could have or if they had the ability that's the task you could exaggerate a little bit so could we suggest as follows avada at the hospital of the ramak is there anybody who never committed a sin no ain't sadiq but there are some people who are pretty close so at the time of a hested you're given license to exaggerate abyssal so the ariza got up in history he said the ramak there's no reason why he had to go we can't explain it it must have been because and show himself but are you really allowed to think that no it's wrong not only is it wrong it's an of allah because then you're saying the ibanisham conducted din with a mishpa with abdin so there's no mahoikis over here kanbasmana has been you're allowed to say you have a certain license at a time of aspen but to see that that's the shot in the passage you know how to do that i'm not fully satisfied with this because the slaw says this is chad the possible is not talking about he's just taiching the passage that if you see a person missing a reason to die he dies hinge it on the it's had us and the son says the rama islam said this he didn't say it at a heisman here's another possible chat and that is are you allowed to say if somebody passes on they never sinned why'd they die because of the sin of the eights hadas you know how to say that it's disgusting it's a novella how could you say that about the rebels that he did something for no reason however if you're if you're an arizal and you're saying it about a ramak you could say it you can't say it about anybody you have to have you have to be an aries and then the subject and the person who you're speaking about has to be a ramak otherwise you have no right to say such a thing just to say about anybody or even anything anytime you have to be of a certain cow you have to be a ramo saying you're better off you have to be in again this doesn't really answer for the shell because the just says this is and the yara sanam says this is so my best attempt is as follows and i think it might be true if you look at carefully in number 15 at the hesped rib shmuel you the katzenellenbogen gave for this for this uh great reverb salman katz he says one two three four five six on the seventh line you see a guy who's missing a reason to die now when we see he's missing a reason to get to that doesn't mean he never sinned because there's nobody who doesn't sin only those four people in the gemara never sinned now i mean you asked before what do you mean can you deny the fact that the gemara says four people died without sin that's right they die without sin but there's no one else who has no sin but still says that and of course everybody is going to sin not everybody is going to have kavanaugh for every word of davning probably some time in one's life somebody may slip up somewhere but the person is missing a reason to die they never committed a sin that they should be high of misa that's what i don't understand says i'm not saying this great rav never sinned avada everybody's sins ain't sadiq what i'm saying is he's missing a reason to die so perhaps this could reconcile the shakhala torah with rabbi to say about someone i don't understand why they died they never ever committed any sin why did god do this that's an avala you know how to say somebody never sinned in sadly and if the person sinned then i am punished but what you're allowed to say and what that reason said and what the ramos said was shalom and radharamak they never committed a sin that would explain why they had to die so perhaps this is a way to reconcile what the aries said according to ruby and savages and what rama said according to and that's what they said was that that that the ramak or they never sinned a sin which is mishpat mothers they're missing a reason to die but what the shack perhaps is saying which is a navala and you're now to take it into your mind and you need to bury it is to say oh this person is perfect we don't understand why anything happened to them perhaps that is an of allah okay marvel abuse i'll let you think about it but uh this is quite an interesting pasuk and here you have an interpretation of ravionis and ibishits and the khida who attribute it to that read and trips it's the rama that they set it at the hospital of the greatest old-time people and the torah says this is not the hashgaffer that we accept um but again torah is uh kepatish yafutsatsela there's so many different ways to understand it and so many different streams so yes no but other mauricio's different anybody wanted anybody not to have a mara do we have six who didn't have it you've just experienced another torah class brought to you by torahanytime.com