Meat & Milk: Knife vs. Spoon - Rabbi Shlomo Cohen

I want to talk to you today about what happens when you put a milky spoon into a meaty dish of food that's cooking and to compare that to the case where you use a milky knife to cut meaty food in all these cases that we're talking about it doesn't make any difference if we change around the milk and the meat doesn't matter whether it's a milky knife into a meaty food or meaty knife into a milky food it's all the same how long it works the same both ways around but what I want to emphasize to you and show you today is the difference between a spoon and a knife because as we'll see there's a big difference in the kitchen between these two items let's say mrs. Cohen was in her kitchen cooking a pot of Meatballs with a thick tomato sauce her husband comes along sees what's cooking and wants to have a taste he grabs the nearest spoon and puts his put it in and takes a taste of it and then suddenly everyone realizes it was a milky spoon what do we do now what's the halacha now a milky spoon was put into the meaty food that's cooking on the in the in the pot so let's take this case apart right we've spoken before we've mentioned the difference between what's called a Ben yomo and an a nubbin Yano that means a utensil that was used within the last 24 hours and a utensil that was not used within the last 24 hours and we said that as far as taste that's absorbed in a utensil is concerned where it was absorbed more than 24 hours ago so the taste has now become stale and it's not going to also add any food that was cooked in that polity I have we had where I have a pot Emil keep OTT that wasn't used for 24 hours I cook chicken in that pot so we explained before in an earlier class that the chick even though that had he'll oh I shouldn't do such a thing but the chicken soup doesn't become awesome because the taste that was absorbed in the milky pot is now stale but if I did that same thing within 24 hours of using the milky pot I cooked my chicken soup in that pot so now the chicken soup becomes awesome because the taste of the milk that's absorbed in the pot is going to come out it's within 24 hours it's a gain yomo and it's going to make the chicken soup a mixture of meat and milk which is going to make the chicken super awesome so the same things going to apply to our spoon if the spoon that mr. Cohen took was a spoon that is an anal vein Yolo it wasn't used within the last 24 hours so for milk hot while it was hot that means he didn't eat porridge with it in the last 24 hours so now let's take apart the situation what's going to be with the chicken soup the chicken soup is going to be mutter it's going to be permitted why because seeing as this milky spoon is an anal venue Omo the taste that's absorbed inside it is not fresh and therefore whatever comes out into the chicken soup isn't going to make effect that you can soup and the chicken soup is still kosher the pot that the chicken soup is cooking in is also still kosher just like the chicken soup is but the spoon itself is now going to be absorbed the chicken soup because the chicken soup is hot on the fire but the spoon is going to absorb the chicken soup and now it's a milky spoon even though today in the vanilla that has just absorbed meat so the spoon is going to need hagalo so they're going to be going to be need cos you're going to need koshering it's going to need to be immersed in boiling water to get out the taste of the taste of the meat that's been absorbed into it so that's if the spoon was an aina been youma if it was not used within the last 24 hours but what is this spoon was used within the last 24 hours we know that the spoon was used within the last 24 hours it is now at been yomo the taste of milk that's absorbed inside that school is a fresh taste of milk and it's going to come out into the chicken soup when mr. Coyne put it in to take a spoon of the soup to taste so the first thing we need to do is to see if the laws of nullification appear if the laws of bittle applying it we have to look at the volume of the spoon because we presume that the whole spoon is absorbed with milk and see if the chicken soup the volume of the chicken soup is 60 times the volume of the spoon if it's more than 60 times the volume of the spoon then little will apply here and that means that even the taste Oh taste of milk came out of the spoon it was nullified in the chicken soup because the chicken soup is more than 60 times the volume of the spoon if if that happens if there is more than 60 then not only is the food going to be kosher the pot that you're cooking it is also going to be kosher because if the food's kosher and the pots going to be kosher the spoon is going to still need culturing because the spoon even though there was 60 against the milk that came out of it but now there's meat absorbed in the spoon you have a been your most spoon that has absorbed chicken that's going to have to be cautious right so the spoon will have to be cautioned what if you don't have 60 if you don't have 60 against the volume of the spoon so now the food the chicken soup is going to become awesome because the fresh taste will come out of our spoon and get absorbed in the chicken soup that you can soup will now become a mixture of meat and milk it will become awesome and that is so will further be absorbed in the pot that is cooking in so now the pot is going to need koshering and the food is a mixture of meat and milk it'll have to be thrown out an interesting point here thing as I spoke about chicken soup so chicken soup is not an infant ERISA to cook with milk because chicken done it the wila where did we learn the ether of meat and milk from from the peso curve lo T - LGD but allow me more you're not allowed to cook a kid goat in the milk in its mother that's talking about animals that have milk and feed their children there there's an ISA of meat and milk together but with a chicken a chicken doesn't have milk there is syrup did there the prohibition of having chicken and milk together is do a banana it's a rabbinic rabbinical prohibition so even though with meat and milk you're not allowed to have any benefit from eternal lives cooked together with chicken and milk that was cooked together you are allowed to have benefit from it so this mixture which is now a mixture of meat and milk if you have a non-jewish neighbor you'd be able to send it to them and a gift for them turd - enjoy your tea or your chicken soup because for them there's no no prohibition involved at all and even though you're going to get benefit from it that they're going to maybe send you back a bottle of wine next week or send you something next week in return for the gift that you sent to them nevertheless that benefit ISM is allowed because here the issue of meat and milk is only rabbinical and not from the Torah but nevertheless let's get back to our case right so if you if you don't have 60 the food is going to be awesome the pot is going to be awesome and the spoon is going to be awesome as well because the spoon has absorbed meat and look together an important point that we have to say here though is how we're measuring the volume to see if we have 60 times the volume of the spoon or don't have 60 times the volume of the spoon how do we measure the volume of the spoon there are three options here one is to look at the amount of the spoon that was put inside the chicken soup which may just be the spoon at the bottom the second option is to look at the whole volume of the spoon even the part that I was holding in my hand which if you're talking about a large soup ladle like could be a large amount of metal could be a large amount of volume the hold spoon by itself or a third option is to look at the amount of the spoon that was put within the rims of the pot where there is the steam the steam of the of the chicken soup so which of these three volumes do I take how do I measure the volume of the spoon as our tenors that I take the last option that I think I don't look at just at how much of the spoon was put into the chicken soup and I don't look at the whole volume of the chicken of the spoon even what was in my hand I look at whatever went within the boundaries of the rim of the pot whatever went inside the rim of the pot that's the volume that I have to take and I have to measure to see if I have 60 times or don't have 60 times why because within that rim within that area are the stays this hot steam that's coming up from the chicken and all that is affected set out with the taste so when I'm measuring it I need to look at how much of the spoon of the ladle went inside the rim of the pot so that's with regard to the spoon now let's look at the same situation the same scenario with a knife the next evening mrs. Cohen ordered a pizza a big large pizza with bubbling cheese arrived at home and mr. Cohen again grabbed a knife to cut up the pizza and after he'd made the first big slice suddenly realized it's a meaty knife he used a meaty knife to cut a milky boiling hot pizza what now is the halacha in this case first of all I must explain to you that there's an argument what happens when you cut up something with a knife we know let's take the scenario that the night where the knife was a vendôme Oh the knife was a bender mo and we now need to know whether I have 60 times in my pizza the volume of the blade of the knife or if I don't have 60 times the volume how much of the the solid that I cut with the knife do I need to measure so there's two major opinions one opinion is that it doesn't make any difference how big the piece that you cut is we presume that the taste of that knife went in the whole piece so even though I had a whole big giant pizza and I made one cut through it with my knife we presume that the taste of meat inside that blade of that knife is absorbed in the whole piece of pizza the whole big round pizza and therefore where I have to measure whether I have 60 or not against the blade of the knife I look at the whole pizza and see do I have 60 against the blade with a knife or not if I do then the whole pizza is not now a mixture of meat and milk it hasn't been absorbed in the whole volume of the pizza but there's another opinion it says that when I cut with that knife it doesn't spread out in the whole pizza in the whole solid that I cut but it gets absorbed in the width of appealing around wherever I cut so if my large round Pizza where I made one cut from top to bottom a slice on either side of where I cut a slice which will be the size of appealing the width of appealing the width of appealing that means the width that you'd be able to cut that width and it would stay whole and not crumble up now you're talking about around a centimeter like maybe a little bit more you would have to cut off that only in that area only that area absorbs the taste that is absorbed inside the night in the case where the knife is of any AMA so we have these two different opinions so therefore even if the hole size of the pizza was 60 times this the the volume of the blade have to worry about maybe and therefore the whole pizza is not going to become awesome but maybe maybe the house offers like the other opinion and only just around where I cut the the taste of the of the meat is absorbed into the pizza and therefore even if therefore I have to check there as well if I have 60 times or don't have 60 times and there it's much less likely that I will have 60 times and therefore I would have to remove that peeling from each side around where mr. Coyne cut the pizza in half but that's going to be if the knife that was used is Avignon if the knife that was used is not Avignon oh so it would seem that there shouldn't be a problem with the pizza because the taste that comes out of the bane of an yomo something that wasn't used within 24 hours is a stale taste as we've already explained a number of times but here now comes the important difference between a knife and a spoon the big difference between a knife and a spoon is that a knife the way a knife is used with pressure to cut something we say that where you have a meaty knife there are two problems with the knife one problem is the meat that serves the taste of the meat that's absorbed inside the blade of the knife another problem is the fact of the meat that is going to be stuck to the blade in a microscopic film of fat on the side of each nose and on the sides of the knife and that happens whether you cut meat or whether you cut and cut cheese there's always going to be a very thin covering of fat from the meat or milk which is not a taste of meat or milk but it is actually meat or milk itself which is going to be stuck to the sides of the knife the the halacha is that the only way to get that off is to stick the knife in the ground ten times into hard solid ground that scrapes off the sides of the knife in our times we're used to cleaning our knives with cleaning materials and with coarse cloths and thin scotches and things like that which we scrub our knives with if you scrub a knife with a coarse some type of course material and you have a bit little bit of soap a little bit of detergent cleaning materials washing up liquid then we can presume that you've got off that fat but if you didn't do that then we cannot presume that that fat was taken off and we presume that it's there on every knife so in our case where mr. Cohen used the meaty knife to cut the pizza even if the knife isn't a nubbin yomo the fact that was stuck to the side of the knife when we cut the pizza because of the pressure of the knife when we cut the P win mr. Kyne cut that pizza is going to mean that some of that actual meat has come off and he's stuck now to the size of the pizza and therefore even if it was a bent youma we have to get that off the way we get that off is we have to cut all around where the cut was made by mr. Cohen we have to cut around on both sides again the thickness of appealing the thickness of appealing again is the amount that you would be able to cut off and the whole thing would remain whole and wouldn't break up into crumbs again you're talking about the width of about of about a centimeter maybe so even in the case of the knife it's more stringent than in the case of the spoon in the case of the knife because of this second problem of food that you're fat whatever it is that is stuck to the blade of the knife so even even if the knife is an angle Bonomo we need to be worried about the meat that is actually actual meat why does not a taste of meat eat actual meat that is stuck to the pizza and you'd have to cut off from around the sides so what's going to be our final ruling with this pizza that mr. Cohen cut if we have then if the knife was 1/8 was it was excuse me was an anal beignet then what mr. Cohen is going to have to cut off a slice around the place wearing cut made that big cut in that first cut and the rest of the pieces of the family can eat if the point of the knife is an a is a bang yomo it was we was used within the last 24 hours then the halacha is going to be that if the whole pizza is more than 60 times the volume of the blade of the knife and here we would have to look at the whole blade of the night because generally when people cut they go backwards and forwards and so we can presume that the whole blade of the knife has absorbed if the pizza is more than 60 and the peach is going to be motor and if it's less than 60 then it's not but even if it's less than 60 so the whole pizza is not a problem of insulin you can invade the family can eat and enjoy the rest of the pizza nevertheless that piece of a kadai clipper of appealing around where mr. Cohen cut would have to be taken off because there you probably wouldn't have 60 times the volume of the blade and there we would say would it it will absorb the taste of of the meat so that's what's going to be their din with the pizza and that's the difference between the knife and the spoon one question remains for us to deal with and that is who knows whether that spoon or that night is a been yo morena Bayamo no one following around in the kitchen to know whether whether I use that knife or spoon in the last 24 hours or didn't or didn't use it you've got a whole load of knives and forks some you did use some you didn't use how can you know how can anyone be expected to keep track of that so the rule is that in the private kitchen we presume that every knife or fork is an aina been Yama was not used within the last 24 hours that's the presumption unless of course we know that it was used but if we don't know we can't say I just don't know what did I use that knife or didn't I use that knife in a private kitchen we would presume that it's an Aimable yoga but in an industrial kitchen in a restaurant in a hotel we would presume that it is a venule mo because there everything is used so much so there we would presume where we don't know that it is a Ben Yama and in a private kitchen we would always presume where we don't know that it's an aina been young so that's how it works thank you