Q&A: Afterlife, Converts & Spiritual Roles - Rabbi Yitzchak Breitowitz

Sure. There must be thousands and thousands of questions that are piling up. I hope I hope not. But anyway, that's what's that's what's up for tonight. Yeah. >> Um, can you the system of >> Yeah. >> Can you take one and go down each rung of the ladder? >> Um, I'm I'm going to have to prepare for that. I I I I will do it for you, but I I can't I don't want to do it right now because off the top of my head would be a little difficult. I I just want to mention one thing about partardes though which makes it much more partisans garden an orchard and uh in cabala uh partardes is said to be an abbreviation for four different levels of interpreting the Torah. Uh there is which is the basic simple meaning of the words. Then there's rese which refers to illusions to other things. And then there's drush which is more of a midrashic elaboration of those illusions. And then the sam is which is the mystical cababalistic interpretation. And it is said that every single teaching of Torah uh has uh these four levels. Uh but what's interesting is there are levels of levels of levels of levels going to infinite levels. So for example inhat there is the re of there is thehat there is the sod of and in sod in so there is thehat of sod there's the re of sod there's the dish of sod there's the sod of sod and you can actually take this to infinite levels of different types of interpretations um one thing I will tell you just as a general way yephat rez so rez dr dash and sod The way it really works is this uh it's like an ab po poetry, right? Meaning to say gash is actually linked to pat. It's really an elaboration of and rez is like a kitser of sod. So rez is really connected to sot and dash is really connected to and that's very very true because if you learn midrashim you will often find that although the midrashim seem to be far-fetched they are actually occupying themselves with basic shot questions. So draash is an amplification of um of pashhat, but I'll try I'll try to give you a specific. I know that uh it gets more clarified when you have a specific example. I'll try to work on one. Uh yeah, >> I've been told that to wear sitsus all the way out is gedic and that one should tuck in a citus at least past the knotted portion. Is there a for this? Is it all up? >> Um you know, I honestly have not heard of that. Again uh let me just talk a little bit about the ad the idea of having your sites out. Uh the makor uh in the yeshiva world for having sitches out is based on the pusk. Pusk describes sites as o you shall see the sits and by looking at the sites I am reminded of all of the mitzvos of God and that's based on the gamadria uh that uh sits is 600 and then you have eight strings and five knots and that gives you 613. I look at the sich I think of the whole Torah and if I have I think of ultimately the the sea the sky and ultimately the throne of glory the kayak so that would be a very logical reason to wear your sits out however uh the Arizal others actually say to wear your sites in and mo is referring to the mind's eye contemplation of the of the mind wearing sites not necessarily visualization but you brought up a statement that even if you wear your tits out, you should only uh wear the strings, you shouldn't wear the whole thing out. And you had heard that it was considered to be a bala. >> Yeah. >> By two people. >> I don't know that that sounds a little bizarre to me. Uh simply because after all, if you want to be literal about it, the only way sit reminds you of the Torah is if you include the five knots, right? That's part of the 613. So how can you say I'm concealing it? And also keep in mind that many had the min to wear the tal the whole talis kan out say they wear they wear the talis katan over their shirt. Now if you're doing that obviously everything is out. So um I don't think I don't think it needs to be mak I mean the most I might say is that maybe the person meant if you're in a yeshiva where the people where that sit is out only have the strength and you're doing something beyond what is the min perhaps uh that that would be improper but intrinsically I I would not I would not say that. Yeah. >> What is geneim like and also is is it as painful as or maybe even worse? Um and also you know once the soul is is departed right when you say kadesh so that to assist to assist with departed soul um you know is there only utility in doing so up to a certain period like in other words once a soul has left and now is inabah is there any use for continuing to say kadesh for him in that point for you know years and years and years is doing that >> yeah the issue of what is gene like uh is is actually a question that uh sometimes you a person thinks they have experience. Well, I'll tell you it's it's a bit of a joke, but it's a a man had a very bad toothache and um he was saying things that a person shouldn't say. He was saying, you know, I I wish I was, you know, he said he wished he was dead. So, the risker remarked to somebody, he thinks it's going to be better then, you know, uh which means gem ganim is pretty bad. But you do have to understand that gehennam is not physical pain. It is not physical pain. When we talk about burning, we talk about fire, we talk about needles in the flesh, these are just using physical descriptions. So we could grasp that it's a tremendous anguish. But it is a torment of the soul. It is a torment that is spiritual in nature. The fires of gehennam are not physical fire. Uh they are the torment that a person has when they become fully aware. Well, there are different ways it's described. Some is you become aware of the life you could have been, the person you could have been >> compared to what you were and that creates torment. Or some describe it as the feeling all the pain that you caused in your life without the defense mechanisms that we have to give us excuses. You just you get you bear the full consequence. So it is described as an awful awful awful torment. It's also described in a different way. There are different descriptions that you don't have a sense of Hashem being with you. In other words, there is this sense of utter isolation that you're alone and because there's not really a measure of time in the gahanam and mabar realm even though you're not going to be there more than 12 months and many people might only be there a few minutes actually but you don't have a sense that oh I'm only going to be here another five minutes it it doesn't work that way you're in a realm beyond beyond time but the one thing I will say about gehenna in a positive way is that uh as as painful as gehennam is it is really therapeutic meaning to say it's not there to punish it is not an expression of hate. Uh the closest the closest analogy that one might give is that of physical therapy. If you ever knew someone or I hope you you didn't go through it yourself, a person breaks their legs, breaks their hip, and in order to walk again, they have to go through physical therapy. Now, the physical therapy can be excruciatingly painful. A person screams, a person cries, a person begs their family, "Let me go back to bed. Let me go back to bed." And the family will say, "No, you have to keep going. And it looks like sadism. It looks like mamish. They're torturing this person, but it's for the purpose that they'll get healthy enough to be able to walk. Ghanim is very much that way. Um, a person ult God's ultimate plan is that a person should have eternal olhaba for their mitzvah. But if a soul has been corrupted and bismerched by sin, it's like a broken vessel. It's not able to hold God's light. So gehenn is the spiritual therapy akin to physical therapy to repair a nama so it would be able to receive God's light inhab by and large there's some exceptions but by and large the notion of eternal damnation is not such a coherent notion because there would be no reason for God to create eternal damnation. Damnation. I'm using it as a synonym for hell just just as a synonym. Damnation's purpose is to prepare the nishama to receive the light of olam of olam haba. Now the role of kadesh now kadesh obviously is not limited to mourers. We say kadesh you know so many times during dvening in many many different forms. Kadesh draan kati kadesh kadesh shaim etc. Uh the kadesh that's called mourers kadesh is simply called mourner's kadesh because it was the kadesh that was set aside for mourers to say if they were not dabbing for the um but it's a well-known idea that kadesh is not about the dead. It's not a prayer for the dead. There's no mention of that. It is really a prayer for the sanctification of God's name. And uh there is a medish however that teaches us that the recitation of kadesh for someone who died particularly a parent who died protects the soul from gehanim it lifts the soul uh out of ganim and therefore kadesh is a very important thing you know it's very interesting uh I mean I experienced this myself you know you tr everyone you know we all we all here try to dive with a minion every day but you know if you miss it you miss it sometimes it happens It's an interesting thing when you're saying kadesh for a parent it really becomes it really absolutely becomes an obsession like every you know as soon as you wake up if you have to go somewhere you think in your mind okay where will there be a minion here there there and then of course if you want to dive him for the you have to think will they let me dive him for the it really becomes even a person who goes to minion every day the idea of of kadesh for a parent is something that's very very special And I can tell you I know from my own experience as a rabbi of Vashul there are people who were not religious at all not even Shar Shabas but they were committed to say kadesh for their parents and they would come to sh to say kadesh and having to say kadesh for 11 months they became eventually I mean you know what's what's going to happen they're going to they're going they're going to go to sh three times a day for 11 months and then what the day after they say okay that's it I mean they got into a habit right and the habit actually was a very good habit and that I would actually say I would be willing to say is a bigger merit for their parent than even the saying of kadesh the fact that now they're keeping chabas and now they're keeping kosher and now they dav and put on put on so uh as you know the minog is we only say kadesh for apparent uh 11 months why is that so because there's a tradition that even the biggest Russia only stays in gehenn for 12 months I don't want to start saying kadesh into the 12th month because I would be implying that a parent is a Russia. So we don't want to do that. It is brought down that if one's parent is a bonafideed Russia you should taka find a way to say kadesh even for 12 months meaning uh to give them that protection. Now theoretically uh so let's assume let's assume you know of course you don't know let's assume you knew the or whoever it is was such a righteous or holy person that he's out of ganam after five minutes so is there any point in other words is there any point in saying kadesh when you know of course you never know but if you knew theoretically the person is not in ganim so the answer is yes because kadesh is not only a way of protecting a person from gehenn it's also a question of elevating a person and levels of oolabah. So you're always going to have that positive elevation based on kadesh. I do want to mention too uh that another very very important thing that one should do for a parent during the year of mourning is learn Mishnayas. It's well known that the letters of Mishna are the same letters as nama rearranged and therefore Mishna is a very powerful limud that elevates the soul that the basi the basi was a great god borra and uh his son was salv who became who was be was the god lador of the next generation before the bas levy night he left an instruction to Rafaim that Rafaim should learn Mishna for him even though Rafim was like learning the whole day and and Basi said the day that you don't learn Mishnayas for me you should not even bother to say kadesh because he said the Mishna was more important than even the kadesh people don't don't realize that now there other issues about kadesh you didn't ask I'll just throw it up I don't want to talk about it unless had a question. Uh there's always a problem. Let's say a person dies and doesn't have sons like no only has daughters. Can women say kadesh? Obviously behind the makita you need a minion for kadesh. A woman cannot say kades at home but can she come to schol and say kadesh. So this is a bit of a controversy. I don't want to stir up anything. Uh but Rav Yosef Salvage of Wu, the one who was Rashid Wayu for many years, uh he testified that when he was in VNA before World War II, before the Holocaust, uh in the main Scholar, he testified that at the end of there were two young girls, like 10-year-old girls, uh who had lost a parent, and they would come into the men's section. they would be in the back of the shell and they would recite I think they were twin sisters or something they would recite Kadesh together. So he said there was a there was a direct precedent for women to recite uh kadesh and the kdesh was even in the men's section if they were all the way in the in the back and ravenkin ruled this way as well but other are not in favor of it and they say that they should hire a yeshiva or hire you know just like someone who's not married and didn't have children we can hire someone in the yeshiva to say kadesh and some say that that is preferable So if the question comes up, ask your local Orthodox rabbi. Yeah. >> Um in the Kuzari, it talks about >> Yeah. >> It says that only direct lineage >> Yeah. >> learning about was a how >> Yeah. Yeah. This is uh one of the um this is aish of Rudy in the Kuzeri. There's not a clear mock in Kazal for this. Review has a kdesh that although a g is a Jew, a g is a Jew, a g is obligated in the 613 mitzvos, but because he was not born a Jewish or at least because his lineage is not from a music and yakov, a gir can never reach the highest levels uh which would make him a na'vi make him a prophet. In fact, it's not even clear like Revida Halevi that um even the children of Gaim would have that. In other words, Ravidy seems to actually say you have to be a person who has a direct descent for even if you were born Jewish, you might have a problem if your parents were gay in that way. Now, people do have I mean, some people have philosophical problems with that. Is God being discriminatory? Uh it's hard for us to know exactly. I mean listen uh in some ways the same way a Israel cannot be a coain so a gar cannot be a ni meaning the idea is that there are certain roles that are assigned to certain types and certain types of souls and therefore one cannot complain if they don't have the soul that matches to the role just like I can't complain if I'm not a coain I can't go into the bases and the like uh but you're not asking that question you're not asking the ideological ical problem. You're simply asking a very very simple question. We seem to have uh a Na'vi in the in the Tanakh who is described by Kazal uh to be a G and this is Ovaja. Uh Oaja this is the shortest safer in although a see it's a question if it's a safer ovaja the whole safer ovaja is only one perk. So people always ask you know let's say let's say you're a firstborn and you know you're supposed to fast on air of pes unless you make a seam or hear a seam. So let's say you know you missed a seam. So you got to make a seam. What are you going to do? So we say well you can make a sem on a safer of oh that's great. That's a lot easier than a seam on Gmorrah. uh but a safer nak can be big book of shayo 66. So what is the shortest safer of n that I could make a seam on? So you might want to say and in fact I have said it in the past but now I'm going to admit I was mistaken that oh safer ovaja is only one book. Problem is that ovaja is part of the unit of the 12 prophets. It's called trey assur. They're called in English the minor prophets but that's an awful name. They're not minor prophets. They're just smaller books. So they were written together in a single scroll. So technically Ovajia is not a separate I know I'm digressing. Ovajia is not a separate seafair. Uh you would have to make a semanter which is pretty big. Traaser would be around 60 chapters altogether. So if you want to know the shortest book uh it's migillas. McGillis is only four praim and you can make a sem on on migillas. Okay. According to Khazal Oajis Nva is all about the eventual downfall of Edim of Asaf that although Asa will eventually become the Roman Empire very powerful in the Catholic Church etc but eventually Asov will have a downfall Mashiach this is the book of Avaj by the way that's why it's the Torah the whole book of Avaj is the Torah for parish which gives the yikus of as okay now kazal say why was oaja chosen to give the navua about as any ni could have been chosen the answer is because he was a convert from edim a convert from asov and therefore he was chosen to be the vehicle to communicate the nva so the problem is if kazal mean oaja was a heir from Edim then how could he be a Na'vi if according to the quizer uh you can't be a Na'vi if you were not born born Jewish so the answer that some people give but but actually based on what I said a minute ago it's not going to be a terrorist is he was not a g he was descended from gay but he was actually born Jewish but that may not be an answer because the kuzari's point may not depend on whether you converted it may depend on whether you have an unbroken lineage. Um so I don't know uh other than the only terrorists I know of is that um he was not he did not convert but as I say I think that would still be a great a great difficulty. Now it could be you have to be man in the whether spiritual laws may have spiritual exceptions. In other words, it may very well be that since Oaja's nvua was not about the Jewish people, it was about the So maybe for that category of Nvuos visa v the you can have somebody of non-Jewish lineage. In other words, perhaps the exclusion of the g is only for nvuos that pertain to amra. That might be an approach. Again, review doesn't say that, but that might be one way of understanding it. Yes. >> Um so regarding mitzvah right that because we we know that are prohibited from keeping some mitzvah in the like like what other what other mitzvah are they prohibited are they are they also punished for intermaring with Jews and then decided to take it upon themselves to enforce Torah laws on Jews in their own Medina like for example the US was to like you know pass a law you know giving I don't know penalty to Jews who break. Would that would that be like a sin for them also? >> So you'll have this this Irish cop come, hey, you know, you touched that mukah in he'll arrest you. Yeah. Uh so there are two primary things that a non-Jew is not allowed to do. And the Gomorra's lion is he's of Misa, but that doesn't mean he's put to death. That means uh in God's book he deserves to die, but not that he will be put to death. One is the keeping of Shabas and the other is the learning of Torah. So that in fact the Rambam the Rambam is mashma that a non-Jew can do any other mitzvah that he wants. A non-Jew could put on without a brah a non-Jew could wear titas. But the two things that a non-Jew is not allowed to do are unique gifts to the Jewish people and that is Torah and Shabas. Now even with Shabas there was a R hearing who was um nifter last year Raviol Schwarz who was a big big and one of his many interests he had many interests in many fields was he was very interested in Ben Noah in teaching Noahites teaching Gentiles not to become Jewish but to obey the laws of Ben Noah and he made a very interesting that people don't realize he says it's true that The non-Jew is not supposed to keep the 39 mus restriction. A non-Jew is supposed to desecrate the Shabas. But that doesn't mean he said that Shabas should be treated like a regular weekday. He said even non-Jews should celebrate Shabas as the special day when God rested after creating the world. So he actually advocated which many people had not done before that non-Jews who want to be righteous Noahites should make a meal in honor of Shabbath and they should even say various benedictions in their native languages but they have to be careful not to keep all of the malas. So uh for they would make a point of turning on a light or whatever it is in order that they don't fall under the category of shashavasa. In truth, even if somebody's in the process of convers conversion and obviously if they're in the process of conversion, they have to be trained in the laws of Shabas to know what to do and what not to do, but they're sto they're told they're instructed they should do one technical violation. Meaning, even if they're going to refrain from not turning on lights, but one time they go into the bathroom, turn it on, turn it off in order that you didn't keep a complete shabas. This is to this very day. Uh we often give candidates for conversion that type of advice. Um they tell the story about a non-Jew that was enrolled in a conversion program and he went to yeshiva. He was accepted in yeshiva because he was the conversion was imminent and he was such a masid. He learned yo mallaya and uh some of the boys were a little offended because holier than you're not even Jewish you know what are you doing? So somebody went over to him and said, "You think you're so firm, you think you're better than us." He says, "You should know every time you keep Shabas, you're doing an Ara, and we see that you're keeping Shabas all the time. So you think you're a big sad." So the boy looked up and said, "Well, I carry in your meaning to say I'm I make it a point to be shabas by carrying in your what you think is a kosher." Right? So that way he kind of combined the holier than thou with keeping the of a guy not keeping Shabas completely. Now the issue of a non-Jew learning Torah is a very very difficult issue. It is a very very difficult issue. Uh first of all, can that possibly apply to a non-Jew who is studying for conversion? Well, we're going to tell him, "Sorry, you can't learn anything." That that would be crazy. He's going to convert without learning anything about Judaism. So, there is a marsh in Mess Shabas, very important Marsha, that does say that the prohibition of teaching a non-Jew Torah, it's it's actually two prohibitions. You can't teach a non-Jew Torah and a non-Jew cannot learn Torah. It's both on the non-Jew and on the Jew does not apply to someone who is actively pursuing uh Gus. This is the Marsha in Shabas. And then we get into another question. Well, even if he's a bonafide non-Jew and he's not even thinking about conversion, uh there are certain things I'm allowed to teach him. I'm allowed to teach him the Noahide laws. I'm allowed to teach him uh tosh and I'm allowed to teach him basic hashkafa like amuna in god even though you're bringing in to resources because these are things he has to know and I could even explain in a very basic way I mean let's imagine a simple thing uh you're walking in the street okay not so much inlay but let's say you're walking in the street in uh Los Angeles and you're carrying a lul and an esra and some non-Jewish guy just asked you at random what's that so what I'm not allowed to say what it is because I'm teaching a Torah so it's understood that simple basic explanations of what is a suka what is matzah that that's not what we're talking about so really if if you want to boil it down to very practical things uh you don't teach it you don't sit down and learn gammora with a nanjo Unless they're part of a conversion program, the intricacies of Torah Shab the Mrs. Rene Noah is fine is fine. The stories of the Kish and what we learn from them is fine. basic explanations of halah is also fine but you don't go into the indepth pilpim of terish because that once again is unless the person is converting because that is part of the special thing actually it's a mlo the garra has an interesting shila well what what noahide law is being violated by teaching the god Torah so the garra says two possibilities one is theft Since Torah was given to us, when the guy learns Torah, he's stealing. And the other is adultery because the Torah is compared to our wife. So if if the particular is gazelle or the particular is adultery, but the Rambam does make it clear. The Rambam doesn't make it clear that even though the lion of Kazal is that does not mean he is executed. Uh that just refers to kind of a spiritual sin. Now your question about can Ben Noah enforce Jewish law against Jews? Uh I think the answer is no. uh ben Noah can enforce Noahide law both against non-Jews and even against Jews like not murdering something that's a violation of Noahide law recognizes the legitimacy of non-Jewish courts enforcing those criminal laws against Jews. Uh but I don't believe that non-Jews have any authority to enforce requirements against uh against Jews. Uh yeah. Torah is so important and it's emphasized so much in our modern day society with that Torah then how could it be that certain women for example are not commanded and also how could it be that certain people have more of a knack at understanding things some people are sharper if that's our whole or one of the things that's so emphasized that how could it be almost in it >> yeah yeah right very good question so the questions there are uh if uh learning Torah is such a fundamental aspect of Judaism uh kazal I'll seem to say it's the most important thing to Torah is equal to all of the other things. Then number one, how could it be that women are technically excluded from the mitzvah of Torah learning? Now granted, a woman does have to learn the apply to her, etc., and even the hashkaf, but she does not have a separate mitzvah of Torah. There's even a mus can women recite the weasan. Yes. But also, but that's only because pragmatically they're kay to learn those mitzvah, but they don't have the mitzvah of Talmet Torah per se. How could it be that women are excluded from that? And the second issue was um some people are very talented in learning, some people are not so talented. And if Torah is so necessary for spiritual life, how could it be that some men are kind of shut out or excluded from the learning uh because of things that are beyond their control just uh whatever they were born a certain way. So the issue of women is is a very very good question. But I think we just have to trust God that uh that all of the statements of that tal is so essential are referring to the nishama of a man. The nishama of a woman is calibrated differently. Uh what it needs is differently. It's its nutritional its spiritual nutritional requirement may not be exactly the same. And as a result uh what is necessary for one gender may not have the same level of necessity for the other gender. To some degree it comes from the fact that women are more naturally spiritual than men. So a lot of what tora is supposed to accomplish. Women come into the world with that quality already. Now as as we know um for most of the history of Kalisrael there were not necessarily formal Jewish schools for women. Uh the idea of the B Yakov the school for women uh dates really from the early 20th century. Uh Sar Schneer who made the first B Yakov girls school uh in Kraco Poland. The building is still is still up. And at the time there was some controversy. Some some kidbies in particular thought that this was an innovation. This was women's liberation in the 1920s. And why do we need to have girls having a formal Jewish education if for hundreds and hundreds of years if thousands of years it was simply a tradition they learned in their home as to how to run a Jewish home. But the finally the kafitim and the gbi the garbi g was the largest in Poland. Both the kavit and the gbi said that the nature of modern society was such that girls were no longer picking up all of these things in the home and they needed to have a formal system of schooling. And indeed many many years later when Rav Shak was asked who did he think was the greatest spreader of Torah in the 20th century who is the greatest Marvitz Torah. So everybody figured he would pick this rash or that rash or somebody. He said he gives the title of greatest spreader of Torah to Sarah because by training the girls to follow the dera those were the husbands they sought and those were the types of homes that they created and he basically credited the entire flourishing of the yeshiva world to Sarisha's base yakov. Now, regarding the issue of people with more limited intellect, I I I I think once again the answer is going to be this, barring someone who's, you know, totally and profoundly We're not we're not dealing with with that. But if you're simply talking about people who are smarter or less smart or the like, I think the short answer is everybody needs Torah. But the Torah that Hashem expects you to learn is calibrated according to your level. meaning uh your nishama needs the the the nutrients of your nishama. So just because a person let's say does cannot really you know go with all of the and all of the lumbus and the like okay his diet might be his diet might be Mishna his diet might be vikas his diet might be pushhat that doesn't mean he's not connected to Torah it just means his connection to Torah is in a different avenue you see I think we're making a mistake when we identify limuda Torah with the way we learn in Yeshivos. The way we learn in Yeshivos is one particular expression of limma but it's not the only lima. So for the simple balabayas his limud might be something else but for his madrega that's equally valuable that will connect him to hashem. He's doing the best that he can you know um yeshivas today I mean hashem but they're different than they were in Europe. Yeshivos in Europe were elitist institutions. If I can use secular analogies, they were like the Harvard, the MIT, the Stanford. Meaning the average boy, the average boy did not go to a yeshiva gdola. The average boy went to till around I'm talking from a religious home went to till around 14 years old. Right? So he finished 14 years old and then he went to work. Then he apprenticed himself to a tailor, a shoemaker, a cobbler. Very few went to university. That wasn't the issue in Poland and Russia. Uh but they apprenticed, right? So what did that person do? Well, he remained a religious Jew, a from he would go to shor and there's even an expression that becomes a little negative, but actually it started off as a very affectionate expression. Uh there's a name for a certain simple Jew they call he's an aakovid. He's an aakovid. What does that mean? Any yakovid? What is an yakov? Yakov is the work uh of Jakob Khav who took all the agit out of the Babylonian Talmud and made a separate volumes of just a now although a is very profound but on a superficial level it's much lighter than the portion stories narratives and simple balabatim who were not always capable of advanced gamorra they would hear a yakov so it became an expression In Eastern Europe is a good devoted religious Jew who says to Hillim, learns the para maybe with Rashi and learns Yakov and that's connected to Torah too. That is also Torah and therefore the Talma Torah kulam applies to that person. Uh today we say it a little bit of an insult. Now what's interesting is today uh yeshiva is considered to be universal meaning to say uh every religious every religious family wants to send their child to a yeshiva what whatever it is whether it's yeshiva university or Torah but a yeshiva in other words by and large an orthodox person does not say my child's education ends at Jewish educ ends at 14. So yeshivas have become more universal. They're no longer elitist institutions. By the way, that has some interesting implications because the whole dermat in yeshivas was geared to kind of brilliant people. these khakias, these lumbas, these pilpulum and when yeshivas were only populated by brilliant people that served them very well. One of the issues that people who create yeshivas have to think about sometimes is okay when we had the yeshiva of geniuses like Fajian and Sabbatka. So we were learning this very high analytical theoretical but now we have yeshiva that has all sorts of people we have some of the you know genius types and we have kids who are not so geniuses. Are they well served by all of the pilpul or should there be a more straightforward way of learning? It's a very very good question. I I I may get in trouble for talking about this. I don't want to talk about it too much. Uh but it is an issue. Rebecca Kineski once made the observation that the whole curriculum of the yeshiva was geared to a different type of population than is the present con you know constit constituency of yeshivas. And therefore the issue it would be like saying that um every college student has to take a graduate course in uh nuclear physics. you know it may not be the right course for everybody. So that's something so when Hashem when you start your yeshivas uh you can think about what the ideal curriculum would be. Yeah. >> Um what was the process that Hashem used to select bum as a prophet and any parallels to how he selected Moshe? >> Yeah. Yeah. So this is an amazing thing. Uh we have bum uh who is considered to be a great prophet. Remember that kazal say that the umam had would had a complaint to god if we would if you would have given us a prophet as great as Moshe uh we would be righteous too. So hashem said okay I'll give you a prophet as great as Moshe gave them bum. So first of all you can ask the question well that doesn't really respond. The hummus say if you would have given us a moha we would be good. So Hashem answers I gave you a bum. What do you want? It's not the same. But the deep answer to that is they are the same. Meaning Bum and Moshe started the same way. If Bum became a Russia, it was as a result of his prophecy because Bum became infatuated with his power. That's the thing. Imagine you had the power to bless, the power to curse, the power to destroy. That could take you to a place of arrogance and ga. So yeah, Hashem gave them somebody who was just as great as Moshe. Bam. It's not God's fault that Bum made the wrong choices in life. Now, what was the process? You're asking me with Mosher Rabenu, we actually have in the Torah itself how Moshe was inaugurated into prophecy. And that was the burning bush, right? Moshe is a shepherd for Israel. And he comes across this bush that's not burning. God is in the bush and God says, "I'm giving you a mission. Your job is to go to the bin Israel and take them out of Mitzim." So we have we actually know when and how Moshe was designated as a prophet of God. Now if you're asking me do we have any parallel story with respect to Bum I I I don't know. I mean the only thing kazal tell us is an interesting point that god only appeared to bam in dreams and only at night and the language is god appeared to bum as if they bumped into each other accidentally but but I would suggest that maybe that's only after bam became a Russia in other words based on what I said at the very beginning it was like equal with Moshe so we just don't know We don't know Bum's prehistory. We only know Bum from the time that he appears in the Kish. We don't know everything that happened that happened before. But apparently he was very very great. Very very great in Nva. That's why you know Aristotle had a very famous definition of tragedy. That's where you get the phrase Greek tragedy from. Aristotle's definition of tragedy. That is tragedy is not when a building falls on a child. That's very sad event. But tragedy is when a person is destroyed not from something outside of themselves. But they are destroyed because of something inside of them. And that's tragic because there's greatness, there's potential, there's so much ability, but there's something inside that destroys him. In that sense, Bum, and by the way, Korak is the same type of thing. Bam is a tragic figure in this sense because Bum was very very great in Nva and yet Perkyos talks about the three negative qualities of the Tomum of Bumin Rah in Pyavosin Rah a bad eye which refers not to the horror that we talk about but it means he was jealous of people's good fortune. He begrudged them their good fortune. The second is rua arrogance ga pride and the third is which means hedonism tya. Actually these are the same three things as kina. Another Mishna says kina jealousy tya lust kavot desire for honor. take a person out of the world. So, so the Mishna of Bum uses different names for these. So, the kina is ra the ta is and the is gaboa. But those are really direct synonyms just two different tanoim use it different ways. So that's the tragedy of bum in which there was greatness and side by side with that greatness was that deep deep flaw in character which he did not rectify and that that that destroyed him. Uh so it would be interesting to know again you're pointing out a a very interesting question about a lot of things and that is we only know of biblical characters when they appear on the scene but there was a whole history beforehand right when Bum appears on the scene he's already a famous guy right bullock hires bum because he says I know whoever you bless is blessed and whoever you curse is cursed. meaning Bum already had a reputation. Bum had a life. Bum had a history because he was a nummy. But we just don't know anything about that history. It's it's very true. >> Yeah. >> Um I know individuals who are running summer camps in Israel this summer and >> I'm running a camp summer camp. Yeah. Yeah. and a lot of religious people and a lot of it's quite also and um the question that they're asking was um really was in regards to like I guess uh they were concerned about their own exposure to you know inappropriateness you know throughout the summer and they're I guess they're also asking in terms of trying to understand like what's a a healthy balance of You should at the same time also mean getting more normaly also. >> Yeah, it's a difficult question. I I'll give you an analogy. Uh many of you I may have said this before uh forgive me uh many of you might have been part of NCSY or familiar with NCSY uh national conference of synagogue youth. It's the OU's high school organization for high school kids. And NCSY uh is a tremendous organization. NCSY uh mainly has public school kids who come for Shabatones and the like and many of them you know be become religious become Shammer Shabas go on to yeshivos amazing amazing amazing work and they do it uh because they connect to these kids with love and affection and and care and that's really what does it um I I was involved peripherilally with NCSY in the early 1980s my friends Loen Lraa was the head of uh the Atlantic seabboard region of NCSY. So he wanted me to participate a little bit and I remember the first forgive me for digressing but I think it'll be relevant. the first NCSY Shabbat and I was there with my wife and these kids, these ninth grade kids, public school kids, they were just running around like chickens without a head screaming and and there was no there was no Jewish thought that was expressed in any of it. So I said to my wife, you know, what what's going on? You know, you have to sit around and just see a bunch of uh you know, 14 year olds just running around and fooling around with girls and you know, all sorts of stuff. And I I went I participated for around five years and I can tell you that at the end of the five years you still had new kids who were running around like that but the kids who had been running around were we're were we're ben benet and benosa you know you kind of stick with it and there were real real transformations. So NCSY is I mamesh mameish love it because I see what it's done for people. Now there is a problem. NCSY is co-ed number one. Number two, because it doesn't really impose any standards on entry level people. So, not only is it co-ed, but the girls are not in particular going to be tuna either. Maybe I think they even wear pants, but whatever. Certainly not. Number three, simply because of a lack of education, the kids don't even have a sense of boundaries. I mean, in other words, uh, you know, hugging, kissing, you know, whatever it is. Yeah, there are chaperones. I mean, the same type of chaperon you would have in a public high school. You know, there are chaperones that they don't really really cross boundaries, but certainly they're violating. So, I was in well, I was married then, but but earlier than that when I was a student in Israel. So, Rabbi Loen Brown wanted Ner Israel Talmid to become like the teachers and instructors in NCSY. because this way you get beneva and they create a religious atmosphere and that would be very very good for the educational program. So my roshiva raverman was against single narrating in these co-educational events and he actually gave I consider an an immortal interpretation of NCSY. He says NCSY is like the paraduma. Why? What's the characteristic of the paradum? If you're to the sprinkling of the paradum waters purify you for sure, but the problem is all of the people who handle the ashes, they become tame. See this is what was afraid of. He said NCSY is fantastic for the kids who are not religious but it poses a certain danger to the kids who are religious because it dilutes their standards. So his compromise was he he he he encouraged married students to come with their wives but he did not want single boys to come. Other yeshivas like yeshiva university took a more lenient position and it's a real hard question because obviously the potential for outreach is tremendous and fakar you know if you're telling me oh ner kid is too religious to go so what do you so you get less religious kids to go as as teachers I mean who do you want to be as a teacher and an influence somebody who's more conscientious or somebody who's less conscientious right so it's a real dilemma it is a real dilemma and and uh go back to your question that is kind of the question that you're raising here. Here you have a summer camp and the kids are not religious and they're co-ed and the girls are not senua but there's a great potential for outreach. There's a great potential for kira there's a great potential that these kids' lives can be changed for the better in positive ways. On the other hand, what do you do about the risks of, you know, boys or whatever being exposed to lower standards? You know, Kira works both ways sometimes, right? We think, oh, I'll be a good influence on such a such a situation. Well, yeah, but they could be a bad, you know, negative influence on you. It's like a broom, right? You clean up dirt, the broom gets dirty, you know? So, uh, it is it is a real real problem. Meaning every individual would have to ask themselves or consult with their rebum about what to do. But if if they are going if they've made a decision to go and they're simply asking what guidelines if that's the question you're asking me what guidelines should they follow the basic idea is that they do the best they can. They should be shayim uh obviously they have to look at certain things. They can't close their eyes on everything but you know uh they try to control where they look, how they look, how they talk. They should try to within the boundaries of of loving their charges to know how to keep boundaries. And I would also suggest that it'd be very very important that they augment the camping experience with let's say their own learning sessions in which they can kind of spend an hour in which they focus on their learning and their which can kind of build up a spiritual reserve that will give them the strength and commitment to face the the challenges. Is there a specific standard even let's say for some people like let's say now person going to you know get work to work in television and things are there like specific standards that have to be you know by everybody >> well well you ask me in terms of yeah >> I'm saying >> so I'll tell you the truth I'm gonna be u you know maybe a little a little explicit here uh it frankly depends a not on a person's libido. Me meaning to say uh there are people that get aroused in terms of thought or the like at very little and there are people who you know don't get affected so much. So obviously one has to be very careful. If you're a person with a high libido and these things do affect you in a very strong way you have to be machmir because simply because it's putting you in a bad place. If you're a person who's less affected and that's part of the rationale of the married student because whatever uh then you could be a little little more mal. Uh remember the gammor itself says the following. The garra itself in Baba Bazra says that if you need to go to a certain place and looking at women who are not dressed properly is unavoidable meaning you don't have another route. So that's called leaarina. So in such a situation, as long as you're not to engage in sexual pleasure, uh you're allowed to be mistak. So I would argue that if you're committed to a camp program and your job is to take care of these students, then at that point you don't have another way to go once you have accepted the job. So in such a situation we would be fairly mal in the laws of histoloas. But as I say, all of this has to be based on how it affects a person. If it's affecting you, maybe you shouldn't take the job. Uh, frankly, uh, that's an very very important consideration. By the way, let me point out this is a big soda in a lot of things. You know, we have all sorts of laws designed halus designed to create boundaries between men and women that they don't cross improper boundaries. We have the laws of Yehood can't be alone. We have the laws of not touching. But you have to know that these laws are a minimum. Meaning to say just because you're complying. I mean somebody would say for example um is there anything wrong? I I have a cl I have you know I go to college and I have a a very very nice uh young woman who takes classes with me. Is there anything wrong if I just go out to lunch with her? Not for shuka. Well if you say well doesn't sound right. you know, you don't do that. He said, well, it's a public place. There's no isser of yehood. We're not going to do improper touching. So, you understand the issue here. Uh the issue is that even if you follow every exactly, that's not necessarily enough if it's a situation that could lead you into a bad place. So, that very much depends on on on the individual. So, I think that would be true here too. Yeah. I've heard from the vilon that Torah will strengthen me even if they're bad ones. How would that work? >> Yeah. So there's a contradiction actually what you just brought up is a contradiction in the writings of the Vil Nagon himself. There is one passage of the Vagon that says exactly the opposite. This is very amazing. We all of us know that Torah is compared to water. Right? Everybody knows that. That's a statement of kazal. But why is Torah compared to water? So there are a million interpretations. Water is needed for life. Torah is needed for life. Water purifies. Torah purifies. Water goes from high ground to low ground. Torah leaves the arrogance and goes to the humble. But you know what the vagon says? This is quite amazing. Torah is compared to water because the nature of water is whatever is in the ground when you pour the water on it is going to grow. So if there's wheat or beneficial plants, the water will make it grow. Yeah. But if there's poisonous plants, the water will make it grow as well. Says the Vagon. If you have good midos, you're kind, you're compassionate, you're modest. The Tyra will be like water and it'll be bigger more. That's push so far. But this part is the but if a person is filled with arrogance and jealousy and selfishness and egotism, not only will the Torah not make him better, the Torah will make him worse. Quite amazing. Now, the Vil Nagon was no slouch when it came to learning of Torah. You know, if I mean, obviously, this was his life. 22 hours a day of learning Torah and yet the Vil Nagon said without working on midos the Torah can make your midos worse that is one passage now that's quite amazing that's why the Vagon advocated the need of muser the need of working on your midos etc but you are correct you are 100% correct that there are other places in the GR commentary in Mish where he says seemingly exactly the opposite point that Tyra has the kak to refine your character and make you a better person. So we have a steer right according to the first thing I quoted to you uh tyra makes your bad moto worse according to the second source that uh you referred to tyra can help a person have good meos. So the short answer that's normally given to this is it all depends on part of your motivation for studying Torah. If you study Torah and you have no intention to try to be a better person. You study Torah because it's intellectually interesting. You study Torah maybe because you just want to show that you're smarter than other people in your share. But you have no interest in changing. You have no interest in growing. you have no interest in improving, then the Torah itself might make you more egotistical. And you can actually see that. Let's say a person is very competitive. I got to be the best in everything. I can't stand to lose. Well, you understand that learning of Torah could just be another avenue for that type of competitiveness. It gives me another way where I can show I'm better than somebody else. Masha when you learn even if you're not consciously focusing on muser but you learn with the hope that this will spiritualize you and by connecting you to Hashem you'll be a better person then the Tory can help you immensely in your tunas if you're asking me how that works the the the process is a mystical process but it's connected to the notion that when you learn Torah you connect to God. God is the ultimate source of goodness. I connect to the source of goodness. So goodness comes into me. You see, because I'm connected to our in that in that way. Yeah. >> So, right. We know that most of the scheme they say it's not legitimate, right? But you have your interesting Why would like what was his basis for mis because we know that there's a separate law that says that you know it is for non-Jews to own land. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. the the hetra mak is the famous uh of Ravk although there were people earlier than Ravk that allowed the land on Shmita to be cultivated if the land is sold to non-Jews and to this very day the Rabanut relies on that and that's why certain products and the months after Shmita will say in big letters when they give a hashka and it's very nice that they tell you Alra, it's interesting that that depends on the neighborhoods. Let's say, you know, Osam Osam is a big big food manufacturer. So, Osam makes potato chips, right? So, it's interesting in the Kedi stores, uh the the potato chips are not heter because nobody's going to buy them. When you go to the airport in Tel Aviv, all the potato chips, I'm an expert of potato chips. All the potato chips are heter. So Osam knows where to send the hetra stuff and the nonhum stuff. Uh you are correct that um most not all but the most uh gdole Israel did not approve of the practice of hetra and one of one of the arguments not the only one but one of the arguments made by the kazonish who was against that there's a clear isser in the Torah to sell land init Israel to non-Jews. It actually is forbidden. It is forbidden to sell land to non-Jews in Israel. Loan do not give them an encampment in the land. So the Khaz argues quite logically if you're not allowed to sell land to non-Jews then how can you sell land to non-Jews in order to satisfy the Schmita laws. Right? That's a strong argument. But the truth of the matter is uh you know when Rev. Cook wrote a whole book on justifying the mak called Shabbat and R. Cook was aware of this argument. Khnesh did not like was not the first person who noticed it. Ravk Cook addresses the issue of loan and R. Cook points out a few things and one of the things he points out is number one there are some opinions that loan only applies to idoltors and not monotheistic uh non-Jews and since the land was sold to a Muslim a Muslim is a monotheist and not an idoltor so there might be a problem with a Christian but there'll be no problem with a Muslim that's one answer and another answer Ruff Cook tried to develop was that this was only a temporary sale. The Torah prohibits permanent sales and since this was only a sale for the duration of a year, uh that was not considered conferring a permanent ownership. Now, the Kazines disagreed with these points of course, but all I'm saying is there is a defense. Uh this was a debatable type of issue regarding the parameters of low sen do not give them encampments in the land. Yeah. recently was talking about people and also said there also person should initially then it should be >> it just seems like you know for whatever reason that's not but um I think especially Yeah. So I'm not sure you you you quoted two very different memorial. You you quoted two statements. I should be sure everybody heard them. The first statement is that a person should learn where his heart desires. Meaning the most important thing is to learn those parts of the Torah that you love. That's statement number one. Then there's another statement that says that a person should first learn to acquire a lot of information and then delve into it in depth. Meaning don't start delving into depth until you have acquired a strong knowledge base, a strong factual base because otherwise you're just saying reasonings that might be contradicted by simple facts. So these are two different things. uh one is focusing on what you subjectively enjoy which is an important principle. The other is focusing on how do you approach your learning? And the question that was raised is it kind of connects to what I said earlier that in Yeshivos uh we often emphasize the in-depth learning at the expense of the knowledge acquisition and doesn't that mean that we are not following the directives of kazal as to the right way of learning? Uh the short answer is you're actually absolutely right. I mean the morale of Prague in the 1500s had a very biting essay on the inadequacies of education in which we jump to advanced levels of analysis before we have basic understandings of things I mean a simple example if you look at pavos and this is where the moral comments on this there's a certain ideal curriculum you start learning at five years old and for five years. All you do is and then when you're 10 years old, you start learning Mishna and all you do for five years until you're 15 is do Mishna. And then only after those 10 years of preparatory study can you then learn Gumar. Of course, I mean there was no it's a little there was a little anacronistic meaning at the time the Mishna Peravas was written there was no book called Gmorra but but to over tomud there meant deep analysis it didn't there was no book called Telmmet at that time which means it ties into the idea that no Tanak well and no Mishna well and now you're ready to analyze but we jump the gun we jump the gun we start Mishna uh when the kid is seven, we start Gumarra when the kid is 10. Uh he's really never mastered all of Tanakh for sure and even all of Mishna. So the moral was very very critical that we have to go back to Kazal's system. Now in defense of at least of a yeshiva like orch let me just say that's you know what are you going to tell a guy who comes to yeshiva for the first time at the age of 22 and we tell them okay next five years you're only doing kish and then the five years after that only mishnayas and then we'll start teaching you gumar after you've been here 10 years well the guy would say I wasn't planning on staying for 10 to 10 years. In other words, in a sense, when people start late, unfortunately, you got to short circuit the process. It's not ideal, but that's what you're stuck with. Meaning, we do the best we can. Meaning, we we have to jumpst start you on Gomorrah, even though you don't know a lot of Mishnayas. And the hope would be, you know, you'll backtrack and fill in the gaps later, but ideally, we should follow that sequence. Now, the thing is though, that's a ter for or some a guys who start coming to Shiva at age 22. But if I have a 5-year-old kid and I'm educating my kid, I why shouldn't I follow Pure Yavos? I think you should. And this of course is the famous Zverman method that has taken root in parts of Erit Israel in which indeed follows this five years five years thing and one of the unanswered questions I have is why isn't the Zilberman method universally adept? Zillerman is still kind of a minority kind of odd little quirk quirky thing. No, it's not. It's not the mainstream system. Why not? Why isn't it the mainstream system? As I say, I can give a terrorist for a because a guy who comes to me is not always going to have 10 years to wait till he starts learning Gomorrah. So, we got to do the best we can. I I got that. But if you're educating your child from the very beginning, the perky method seems to be the best seems to be the best best way of doing it. >> Yeah. >> So when it comes to right should maintain close friendships with non-Jews if he becomes a mentor later in life, then does that mean that he has to start scaling back the degree of of the friendships he does have? And on a separate question, is it is it a sin on non-Jews who marry Jews as well? Is it a >> very good question? Let me remind you that one of the greatest of our uh leaders reviewed the Hanazi, the author of the Mishna, had a very close intimate relationship with a non-Jew, Antonyinos. Now, who is Antonyos? This is a very interesting historical question. He is described as the case. is described as an emperor. Is this a Roman emperor? Or maybe Kesar means governor, regional governor. The word queser is not always in a defined term. If it is a Roman emperor, who would it be? Some identify him as Marcus Aurelius who actually was a famous is a famous philosopher. And it actually makes sense that Rabidanasi would have some connection with a man of that caliber. So you do see that even among the very great friendships with non-Jews were possible and they were not necessarily discouraged. So my short answer to you is it ultimately depends on the character of the person. I mean in a sense you can ask me the same question about Jewish friends. Right? In other words, the issue is are they good influences? Are they bad influences? Are they moral people? Are they respectful people? uh are they spiritual people? You know, so it all depends. Uh some non-Jewish friendships might be fine and some might be very very destructive. I know one of the hardest things of becoming a Balshuba is sometime sometimes having to tear yourself away from very very close friendships of either gender and that can be very very hard and uh the one words of solace I'm offering you is that it's not always necessary to cut it down but sometimes it is and uh those are going to be tough those are going to be very very tough decisions. But as I say, it is possible to have those friendships even with non-Jews. But again, you know, you're limited in what you can do. You can't, you know, you can't go to a non-culture restaurant. You know, you know, there there there are going to be limits in how you interact with them. Uh in terms of a prohibition, is there a prohibition on a non-Jew? In other words, the laws of intermarriage, are they prohibitions only on the Jew or is the non-Jew also implicated in the Ara? Uh, that's a very interesting question. It seems to be a Maklo. Let me just remind you that in um the para paras coming up after this shabas. So remember Pinas, right? You had Zimry the the head of Shimon with the Midionite princess Kazby Basur and they're fornicating in a public way. So what does Pinas do? Pinas kills them both. Kills them both. I'm not saying this is a proof because you could analyze that different ways. But but if indeed she was culpable of punishment as well as him that would suggest that the sin is on the non-Jewish partner as well as the the Jewish partner. Uh yeah. >> Um in the especially being a vuba and in the litfish uh you know system um there's a very high pressure to conform and to fit in more much more than the type of balas. Um how how important do you think it is to actually fit in in the litfish system and what would you say to a bala who's struggling with >> Yeah. Yeah. So, first of all, I'm curious about uh your your assumption that there's less pressure to conform in the system. Is that that that that's your feeling? >> Uh that that in in there's there's like you can there's like a lot more types of um like everyone's crazy. So, >> okay. Okay, I got you. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um the issue of conformity is a very very difficult issue. 100% there's tremendous tremendous pressure to dress the same, to look the same, uh to talk the same, to think the same, uh you know, not have positions that are a little different than the standard conventional wisdom. Now, it's not always coming from the top up. It's not that your rabbam are telling you this uh but you know you absorb it just from uh the guys around you uh and the like who are quick to put you in line if you try to step out of line a little bit. Uh by and large I consider that negative. I think part of being a religious Jew is to be committed to Torah and mitzvos but to also discover your individuality and your identity. That's very very important because when you try to squelch who you are uh you're really amputating a part of yourself and you know there's something called phantom pain. Even when you amputate an arm, you're still going to have pain. Meaning, you can't get rid of it. And that's going to cause depression. That's going to cause sadness. That's going to cause anxieties somewhere down the line. That can actually affect marriage and all sorts of things because you never were able to be yourself. So we have to find ways again this is just is we have to find ways that within the commonality of Torah and mitzvah learning that we do tolerate and accept and even appreciate the fact that people are different. Now it depends on the yeshivas. It depends on the rebies. You know it deploys will be different. I I don't think it's a judgment on the entire system that it's always this way. It's very commonly this way but it doesn't have to be this way. And you try to gravitate towards people who are a bit more open, a bit more tolerant, a bit more accepting of different types. You know this is an important point. I I made this point many many times. Why are tribes so important in the Kumish? Right? Uh the identity of a person in the Kumish was not just based on Jew versus non-Jew, but there was always a specific emphasis. What tribe are you from? Now today, we don't really have a sense of tribes except you or a Levy. You know, I don't know if I'm from Ruvane or I don't know what tribe I'm from, right? None of us know what tribe we're from. Unless like Rashi, you can trace your Yikas to David. So then you know you're from the tribe of of Yehuda. But so why are tribes a big deal? They have their own land. They have their own Nasi. They have their own flag. Like what's the big deal? Remember we learned in Chaftim the whole war of pleba was fought over the importance of tribal prerogatives, right? Beyond was a sovereign nation. So I think the inner meaning is that each tribe had a unique approach in avodashem and akadesh didn't want to create a Jewish nation that was homogeneous that was the same that was just identical. We have the ruin and the shimon and the etc. Which means the concept is to find unity within diversity to understand that community does not mean obliteration of individuality. That's the role of the tribe. So I think that's what we should strive to do. Now um can you do it within the confines of Bisha? Not not not it's not always easy. I I understand that. But try not to amputate the important parts of yourself. There may be parts that are negotiable that are not so significant, but anything that's truly significant to you, you try to hold on to. Uh yeah, >> decades ago at Harvard, carefully observant students, married and and single set up a based midrash program where they wanted to uh for kra and they said that they will set up a kusa for anyone who wants to learn anything having to do with Torah, whether they want to learn an olive or they want to learn. And if they want want to learn what shabas is, married uh from students would invite uh other people to their homes for shopping and it was their own initiative. Um is there anyone doing anything like that today that you're aware of or did anybody write up that story? >> Well, I have to check I have to check the history of that program. Uh was uh Rabbi Dr. Sternberg involved in that >> I don't know of any rabbis who were particularly involved. >> Yeah. Uh I'm sure those students knew of uh Rabbi Sternberg and Rabbi. Yes. But it was my impression that the students initiated this and they yeah >> there was no financing. It was all student initiated and was their program. >> That's a wonderful thing. Uh those were the days when Harvard was doing good stuff. Some sometimes say those days are unfortunately long past. But um I'm not aware of I mean if you mean the uniqueness of being student initiated I I'm not aware of that. Most of the programs I'm aware of you know have rabbis involved. Uh but you know again it's a very good idea you know uh if you can help a fellow Jew then try to do it you know try to do it uh even if you don't have a rabbi or a posting and then if you have Shilus of course you need to consult. But it's a wonderful, beautiful idea. It really exemplifies ravens. Every Jew is responsible for every other Jew. I take responsibility. It's a beautiful thing. Yeah. To be forced to do, but he didn't have when he was doing it. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so the Rambam makes this very clear. Um if a let's say a guy goes over to a person and says bow down to that idol or I will kill you like the crusades and a Jew bows down but he doesn't believe in the idol. He doesn't believe in Jesus. He doesn't believe in any of it. He's doing it not to get killed. So the Ramba makes clear that although he still had a duty to give his life because you can't even go through the motions but in terms of culpability after the fact he is not culpable. He will not be punished for idolatry. You have in other words this is a very subtle distinction. You huh you have to distinguish between the obligation of martyrdom before the fact and the of misa the the the death penalty after the fact. After the fact the person is not guilty of anything because he didn't intend to to worship the idol. But before the fact since he's giving the impression of that uh there is a duty to give your life before you give in. This is a point that Ramba makes in Torah and this was a very important point. He wrote a public letter. There was a a rabbi there was a time during Islamic persecutions where people had to profess belief in Muhammad or they would be killed. And many many Jews did that. And a rabbi told them you are no longer Jewish. you are idolattors and God doesn't care about your mitzvos anymore. And the Rambam wrote a very long letter. You could see his fury, his fury at this rabbi. And he said, "How dare you make such a statement? These are Jews who may have may have had to give their lives maybe, but after the fact, they are Jewish. They are beloved. They are not evil. They acted under duress. They acted under coercion. They did not mean uh any type of worship of these powers. They are Jews in good standing who certainly count for a minion and everything else. So the Rambam was very very emphatic on on that teaching. Okay. Uh we'll stop here. Thank you and have a good show. >> Thank you for listening to this awesome production. 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