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Rabbi Shay Schachter - The Halacha's Approach to Filing a Criminal Complaint Against an Aleeged
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Transcript
Auto-generated transcript. Not time-synced to the video.
tonight's year is being sponsored by the
nachman family tv and naomi nachman we
thank them for their generous
sponsorship and dedication and now we
will get into our topic for anyone who's
been following the news out of israel
the last couple of days and i guess the
last couple of weeks let's just say that
this week and the last few days in this
week have been exceptionally
discouraging
and i guess i would say that it's
demoralizing to watch what's been going
on
i think tragic situations like this i'll
explain in a minute are times that
afford our community
the opportunity to talk about something
which should be so obvious and
indisputable to all of us and yet there
seems to be so much confusion that is
out there if you're reading the articles
and you're watching the posts and the
comments that people are making so this
is a very big topic
and it is something that i think will
take us more than just this week to
cover in its entirety tonight's share
will be about the general question that
many many many people have been asking i
am being flooded with emails and texts
from people in our shul
as we know halafa has a position about
everything in our lives every situation
that comes up every scenario
can be found with an answer in half you
just have to know where to look to find
that answer so the question that is
being raised is what does the say about
the possibility of filing a criminal
complaint
against an individual who is alleged to
have been involved in inappropriate
sexual activity
this year should really end because it's
pretty obvious what the answer is but it
seems that it's not obvious and it needs
to be spoken about again just to remind
ourselves so the question first of all
is is that simply an act of lush and
horror
question number two that people are
asking is is that something that
involves the prohibition of mesira
you're not allowed to give somebody over
to the secular authorities question
number three
how can we accept the account of certain
witnesses who are more often than not
not part of the category of halaphically
acceptable witnesses as we know
when a couple gets married they need to
have two kosher adam standing under the
chupa and witnessing the kidushin
so we know that there are very careful
criteria for that
very often the victims that are involved
or the alleged victims are really not
people that would otherwise be
acceptable as adam in the halachic
process so how do we move forward what
do you say that everything that they're
going to tell us is invalid that's
impossible but on the other hand how
could we accept it number four should a
public figure be removed from his or her
position just based on an allegation
alone before it is tried in a based in
or in a court
or by the police whatever it may be
should that be enough grounds for us
just an allegation alone to remove that
person from their position number five
if an allegation is substantiated or an
allegation is corroborated should the
books or the swarm of that individual
continue to be learned or studied from
or would you say that this invalidates
everything they've done up until this
point and we would have to rid ourselves
of all of their influence these are very
important questions that have been on
the minds of many
over the last few weeks and it's
certainly something that we need to
think about leaving no room for any
ambiguity at all because we don't want
anyone to come to the mistaken
conclusions about this very important
topic first of all one needs to
understand that these issues are so
sensitive
and so deeply unsettling because we're
dealing with a situation of real pikachu
on both sides of the equation so however
we choose to handle it you are
potentially endangering someone's life
in a very very practical and serious way
if the alleged victim is not given the
proper encouragement and the proper
protection and support that they need to
move ahead with whatever it is that they
need to do
their lives can
and probably will be destroyed forever
and often in the worst case scenario
their lives will
end
by death to suicide so often we see the
research shows that that is what
happened on the other hand because we
understand that each person does have a
legal and hallucinate right to defend
themselves the torah says
that you have to present a claim in the
presence of the other individual and the
defendant has to have the opportunity to
defend themselves so we want to make
sure that everything we do
is being done in a way that keeps our
community safe that minimizes harm to
all parties involved and that going
above and beyond with just
campaigns of slander or harassment or
cancellation against one individual
are something that we're not really
trying to do we're trying to get to the
truth we're trying to protect everybody
involved and protect anyone in the
future from being hurt so these are
issues that need to be dealt with not on
twitter and not on facebook and not on
social media but in a very very serious
manner with covet roche and with
consideration
and with very very careful deliberations
so that's what i wanted to begin to
discuss this evening i think it's
important that these issues be spoken
about publicly because they
unfortunately rahman al-islam come up
all the time make no mistake they come
up not only in the secular world they
come up in our world in our community
unfortunately it happens with community
leaders it happens with people who are
you know never who we never would have
imagined would be involved in such
things but yet unfortunately this
happens and we need to make it very
clear what our position is so we begin
with a comment of the nitzif the native
rap naftali tv yehuda berlin was one of
the great vidolan one of the leaders of
pre-war european jewry and he makes an
extremely decisive
and instructive comment he leaves no
margin for making a mistake no margin
for error at all in what he's telling us
to do the torah says in parshas in safer
vayikra para q test
los
sales
which means there is an israelis which
means to slander another individual
means you are not allowed to slander
another person and the end of the
passage is lo mode al-dhamrayafa you
cannot stand by while somebody's life is
being destroyed explains the natsif the
torah is written in a very particular
format there's a reason why every word
is situated where it is there's a reason
why sukim are formulated in the way that
they are so why is it that these two
seemingly
incompatible commandments are put next
to each other what do they have
any connection at all explains in native
i'm going to read his words
why is it that the torah puts these two
mitzvos one next to the other sha'afa as
haralo
even though the torah says that you have
to be careful not to defame not to smear
another person not to slander or libel
them meekal nakum the torah also says in
the same breath
and those two need to be put next to
each other because sometimes we have
that struggle and we on the one hand say
oh it's lash and hara and it's refillas
and we're not allowed to do this on the
other hand we need to remember that if
you don't do what needs to be done it is
a problem of salman al-damri
what it means is
if you know with certainty that another
person is trying to devastate and
destroy another person's life hares
you have an obligation to communicate
that information you must caution and
notify
the authorities other individuals
whoever it may be you have to inform
them of the danger that is lurking that
they are unaware of and the native says
this is why
these two mitzvos are put one next to
the other because sometimes there's a
major hesitation due to concerns of
those
don't be discouraged if you see that
there's outrageous behavior that is
going on you don't have a right to
remain silent you don't have a right to
be inhibited and be afraid you need to
speak up because if you don't los
america is on the other end of the
spectrum even more instructive than that
is the comment of one of the gedole
khafme ashkenaz we're all familiar with
the ramo the rama is the guidebook it's
the rule book for all of ashkenazic
jewry
and the rama took many of his pisgah
from the truman sadeshin sardashian came
before the rama so in the 1300s the rama
was in the 1500s in the end of the 1300s
the truman sadism passed away in 1460.
sir abhisrel island was one of the great
kidulam of khafma ashkenaz and he makes
a comment in one of his forum which is
so significant to this point and he says
ra is kirpo i'm reading from his words
alvaro sure calls sifrihammuser you look
in many of the muslim that teach us how
to behave and how to interact with other
people
they tell us they warn us they admonish
us
and hara about the severity of somebody
who slanders other people and who
spreads ill fate ill will about other
individuals
writes the
shuma sadeshin rabbis
i go out of my way to warn the world
about the opposite consequence
avon gadomizer which i believe is worse
than the issuer of lash and however so
you read the say for him and you learn
about how many suram are involved every
time you open your mouth and say
something negative about another person
writes the truman sadeshin i have
something that's worse than that and
what is that gam humatsu yoser and he
says in my opinion this is a bigger
problem that is more prevalent than
problem number one the who and that is
what i think is a bigger problem is that
people feel inhibited people are afraid
and they hold themselves back from
talking when they need to become
dover
says for example if i see somebody
who is sneaking up on his friend and the
example that he gives is somebody is
breaking into another person's house so
it's a very
it's it's a much more toned down example
than what we're describing certainly
would be the case in what we're talking
about but he says if i watch something
and i see that there's a danger to my
friend and he's completely unaware of it
after all he's sleeping he's not going
to wake up they're breaking into this
basement he's not going to hear it he
doesn't have an alarm
is it possible
does it make sense that you're going to
hold that information back and not share
it with your friend
so that tomorrow night the person is
going to come back again and steal money
from him misum is in her because you're
worried about slandering this individual
so you're going to hold it back
hello avono gadomina so
you're going to hold on to that
terrible alvera of letting your friends
life being destroyed
because you're afraid to say something
due to a concern of lash and hara says
the truma sadashi and that is insane
you cannot accept such a position
and here he adds
the same thing is if you are consulted
about an issue that is regarding
shidduchim
so somebody calls and says i'm looking
into this girl i'm looking into this boy
and you know very very important
information we're not talking about a
confidentiality breach if somebody came
to you and shared something
confidentially you have to be very
careful to
uphold that sense of confidentiality and
that truth
if you know you can't call every doctor
in the neighborhood and say does the
person have this in this illness that
that would be insane if a doctor would
share personal and private information
but if i happen to be the next door
neighbor and i know that it's an abusive
home where i knew that there's something
very very serious going on in that house
i and somebody calls me you have to be
very careful says the truma sadeshin
vahushu ishram
if i know that this person is dangerous
if i know that the person in question is
unstable and i know that they are
abusive
and it's a terrible thing to make a
up with this person we know what's going
to happen we know how that's going to
end says the
descendant we would not have a right to
keep quiet
so he suggests a very loose way to make
the rule for when we're supposed to
share information and when not so the
rule that he gives again it's a very
loose definition but it gives us the
point is
hadover muslim you have to ask yourself
a very personal question introspective
if my intention in sharing this is
simply to destroy the other person then
he says that is la shanhara but on the
other hand if my intent in sharing it is
hashemi if the reason why i'm sharing it
is not because i want to get back at
this family it's not because i have some
some hatred toward them and i want to
destroy them but rather because i want
to save the second person who is about
to be destroyed in such a case he says
mitsvarabha i have an obligation to do
so so this is just a way to frame the
conversation that the acronym tells us
very clearly and very explicitly that at
the same time that we have an issuer of
lashanhara and regiles
at the same end of the spectrum we have
the prohibition of losamura
which is no less important than the
first part of the puzzle and there's a
reason why they are placed one next to
the other now you'll ask what right do i
have to humiliate to embarrass or to
shame another person by giving over this
kind of allegation so
we turn to a pussock
by the prohibition of sota the torah and
safer pamidbar describes what happens
when a woman is purported to have an
extramarital affair
and again it's just an allegation
it's an allegation that her husband has
that she has been unfaithful to him
now the gemara tells us that you cannot
go into the whole detail of sota without
a really good reason for suspicion so a
husband wakes up one day he says you
know i think that you've been having an
affair with someone it has to come from
summer it has to be that he warns her
has to be that he sees her going into a
private place with another man there has
to be a reason for it it can't just be
out of nowhere but you have a woman who
is explicitly worn and yet we're not a
hundred percent sure what happened
there's no video camera and now the
husband wants to take it forward because
he really believes that he has a claim
against his wife so the torah describes
he has to bring his wife to the base
amigos he has to be there as well and
everybody's watching and the torah there
says upara is rosa we expose this woman
we shame her we embarrass her in the
amigdas everybody's watching we don't
tell them to move away and she is very
humiliated and the irish only actually
asked that question how are we allowed
to do that
what are we describing here we're
talking about a husband who's not sure
whether or not his wife may have done
this it's an allegation
it's an allegation that comes from a
place where he has good reason to be
suspicious but in the end of the day
it's just an allegation and because of
an allegation you're going to allow this
man to humiliate his wife in front of
everybody how can that be how are we
allowed to do that which is exactly the
question that people ask in our
generation how can i go ahead and
put forth a claim when it's going to
humiliate someone if after all it's only
an allegation it's just a suffolk and
the answer that the ushamli gives is
that we know that the torah tells us by
parshas noah that when there is nus when
there is this kind of behavior going
around when there is arios that is
rampant in our community it brings about
a great vulnerability to the community
it brings about devastation for all of
us the lashon of the gemare is andra
malucia
a major
catastrophe is going to happen
physically to the world as a result of
god's anger for what is happening in
that particular situation and therefore
the gemara in the usami says that
because this action may jeopardize the
lives of many others in our community if
it is true we have a right to err on the
side of caution for the safety of our
community and go ahead and humiliate
this person in question
that is an amazing source
you bring it down to our case and you
see
that we certainly would have a right for
the safety of our community if somebody
has a credible reason to believe
that this is something that happened
even though it may ultimately lead to
humiliation or to shame or to some kind
of embarrassment of the person that is
being suspected of doing such
for the safety of the rest of the
community
this is what they need to do it's no
less than the story that we're told in
the irish only about a sota who we are
medvasa afilu al-hasafi just on a
suspicion or just on an allegation now
beyond the shame and embarrassment isn't
there also sometimes a physical or a
tangible kind of loss when an allegation
is filed so how can you do that
sometimes the person may lose their jobs
sometimes they're going to have to
suffer
financial loss because they're going to
have to hire a lawyer or whatever it may
be they're going to have to go through
all the different steps that are
necessary so this is also a question
the gemara mustafiz kidushan actually
discusses this and the gemara
massachusetts kadusan writes in the
times of hazel
malkin they used to give malchus so
there are very clear regulations in the
gemara who deserves malcus and who
doesn't who's supposed to get lashes
what every time somebody does something
wrong you hit them no obviously not
there's a process of how we do it and
yet the gemara and the mesephis kadusan
writes malkin alotov
if there's an allegation going around
the neighborhood and there's enough
reason to believe that it's true
so it says that the leaders of the
community who are the based in are
allowed to go and give the person lashes
what do you mean but i wasn't tried and
nobody gave me any warning and nobody
anything and it's not following the
rules and regulations that the gemara
lays out for the person who really
deserves malchus and yet the gemara says
aloud
because there is a terrible story going
around and we actually have good reason
to believe it the gemara says that we
are allowed to give malchus for that
which is amazing that's an amazing
statement and that is what the gemara
tells us so much so that the ram takes
it even further and meseth on in hilton
sanhedrin and he says
if you have a credible base and we're
not talking about
an ad hoc based and that nobody
recognizes that nobody respects that
nobody appointed we're talking about a
respectable authority in the community
who used to be the leadership of the
community now again obviously in america
we follow dina di machu sadina we can't
take the law into our own hands and
start beating people up khalil we don't
do those things but the ram says in
theory if we had our own system and we
were running the judicial system of the
town in such a case he says in every
generation the basin has a right la
halco's adam to give malchus to give
lashes to a person
that we hear terrible things about
miranda
who over al
exactly this case if we have a person in
town who we hear is going around and
doing terrible things and it hasn't yet
been proven but the baisden who is the
local authority has a reason to believe
that this is true the rambam based on
that kimura and conduction says you're
allowed to give that man a punishment
which is a very severe response all of
that being said we now turn to the words
of the sky
time writes
what if i see that there's an individual
who is destroying who is wrecking
another person's life for example the
example that he gives is somebody
stealing from another person and the
other person is totally oblivious and
that's the example he gives a thousand
times more so for the situation that
we're describing here so he says vinod
de la baber and the
rights and i know conclusively i know
with certainty not that i'm assuming i
know with certainty i saw it myself i
watched what happened i see that this
person is losing out because of somebody
else is taking advantage in such a case
says the
affilora
normally we know that you need two
witnesses
right couple wants to get married you
can't have one person being a witness
you need two witnesses and that's the
case whenever we administer a dintara we
always have to have two witnesses
present who present the case writes the
even if i'm there alone and i'm the only
other person who saw this and there's
nobody else to back up my claim prophet
zhaim says that should not stop me from
going ahead and sharing the information
with somebody who can do something about
what it is that i experience what it is
that i saw kade lazer
asham
in order that i should be able to help
the person who was taken advantage of
that is what the time says however he
does warn us that there are conditions
and guidelines when doing so and we need
to keep this in mind also you can't just
pull the trigger for no good reason just
because you think that maybe something
happened
again we should not be discouraging
people who have a real claim but you
have to make sure that you have
something real before pulling the
trigger and moving ahead and the time
outlines seven different conditions that
need to be met in order for a person to
move forward all of them are applicable
in the situation we're talking about but
you have to think about it very
carefully beforehand number one
he says you have to have first-hand
knowledge it can't be that you heard
from someone who heard from somebody
else and maybe this and that no has to
be first-hand knowledge either i
experienced it or he says
either i saw it myself i had first-hand
knowledge or number two says the
that i spoke to somebody who i
absolutely trust and it became clear to
me that this is true and i corroborated
the story and it's substantiated by a
well-established individual then i have
a right to go to step two and share that
information with somebody who can help
but without that first step you can't do
anything that's number one number two he
says izarmyod you have to be careful
that you don't draw your own conclusions
you have to see something that is
factual you can't say oh my assumption
is if i saw a and then i saw b it must
be putting the dots together must be
that this happened no it has to be
something that is factual something that
is truth and not a conclusion that you
drew based on a number of circumstances
that you think may have led to what
happened you have to know with certainty
that this is what's really going on
number three he says
i first have to try a less destructive
way to handle it now he's not talking
about a potential abuser because there
are very few less destructive ways to do
that he's talking about somebody who
stole money says a half a time if
somebody stole money instead of running
to the police right away first go talk
to the person and say
what's happening
i saw what you did i'm going to expose
you
you may have to then take the next step
and go to the police you may have to
then take it to the authorities but he
says the first step you should take is
trying to put the person back in their
place without destroying their life
again when we're talking about an
abusive situation that's not relevant at
all but that's the third qualification
that he makes number four he says you're
not allowed to exaggerate or inflate the
story you have to say the facts as they
happen and unfortunately this also
sometimes is the case that as you tell
the story over to one person to another
person to the authorities to this to
that
so sometimes it gets lost in translation
and not everything is said over as
accurately as it should be
and this is number four number five he
says
my intent in sharing this information
has to be
to bring about justice to the victim
it cannot come from a place of
retaliation a revenge that's not what
this is about this is saving the victim
saving future victims saving other
people from getting taken advantage of
that has to be
what i have in mind when i do such a
thing and number seven he says
that i have to allow this person to have
a fair and legitimate chance to deal
with it i have to allow this person the
opportunity to stand up and say their
side of the story now again sometimes
the person won't be willing to go along
with it okay so we have to do what we
have to do if you call a uh
a predator in and you want to
cross-examine them and they're not
willing to talk okay so we're going to
have to move ahead without them but we
have to give the person an opportunity
in a legitimate forum in a legitimate
setting to defend themselves those are
the seven qualifications now even if you
cannot prosecute but you feel that by
sharing the details people will protect
themselves writes the khafitzheim so
again let's say i don't have enough you
know i know that the local government
won't take to me seriously i don't know
whatever it is but i know that people in
my neighborhood respect me and i know
that i can save people in my
neighborhood from this kind of predator
from this kind of abusive personality in
such a case
even if i cannot prosecute them but i
believe that by my sharing this
information with a small group of people
that will help them because they're the
most in danger in such a case he says
that is also a toe ellis and that is
something to think about as well
then he adds another critical component
and that is vida you should know
you have to follow these seven
qualifications and guidelines and it
does not matter he says whether you are
the person who was personally
impacted or whether you are someone else
who was not impacted but you watched
what happened and he writes it doesn't
matter if you're a relative of the
victim whoever you may be all of these
qualifications need to be met
and it doesn't matter whether the person
asked you to do this or did not ask you
to do it you have an obligation to do
the right thing so even if the victim
says i don't care you know it doesn't
really matter this just stole a few
dollars from me let them get away with
it well if you're concerned that maybe
they're going to continue this kind of
destructive behavior and steal and cheat
other people
then the huffits time writes whether the
person whether the victim wants you to
say anything or not you need to stand up
and do the right thing so let's address
one of the major questions that people
wonder and that is
number one what do we do about the fact
that these witnesses are non-halal
witnesses and number two what do we do
about the fact that there's an issue of
misera so those are two very very
important questions that we need to
think about so number one
about the witnesses issue there is a
gemara massachusetts babylon bay is a
fascinating gemara where the gemara
tells a story about none other than
rabalazabarab shimon one of the most
famous names that we mentioned in the
gemara who is
hired and he has a profession what is
his profession he's not a tana he's not
a nambora that was a side job but what
he did as a full-time job was he's a he
was a police officer
not for the jewish police force not for
the css he was a police officer for the
nassau county police department
and what was his job his job was the
gemara says that if he found that
somebody was doing something wrong he
would hand them over to the authorities
and the authorities would actually kill
them not they would incarcerate them
they would kill them
so he knew every time he arrested
someone that the outcome if the person
was guilty was they would have this
extreme punishment of being killed
that's not a job for a nice jewish boy
but that's what he did
so the gemara says that rabbishub and
karfa is one of his friends and he says
i don't understand you are a homets
benjayin you are like vinegar that came
from wine wine is so delicious and
people enjoy it and they appreciate it
and you're the vinegar you're the
spoiled rotten wine the lousy offspring
that came from your father your father
was such a holy sadiq and his son goes
out and takes a job as a police officer
making jews lose their lives it's it's a
crazy profession for you this doesn't
really make sense
and he turns back to him and he says no
i'm actually doing the right thing why
because we know that if you have a
garden you have to take out all of the
rotten leaves all of the rotten tomatoes
in order for everything else to grow
nicely so he says we have a community we
want it to be safe we want it to be a
good community i have to get rid of all
the thorns in order that the rest of our
community should function well so i'm
actually doing a service to the jews i'm
not doing a disservice it just depends
how you look at it
that was his response
to which
rabbishub responds to him yavo
let god figure out how to get rid of the
thorns this is not a job for a nice
jewish boy this is god's job he'll
figure out how to make sure the
community stays safe have we ever heard
that before right let's let god take
care of the problem you don't go ahead
and try to solve the issue that's what
the gemara says now the gemara ends off
the story without telling us who's right
the gemara just says they had this
exchange
of shimon was prosecuting all these
people and ultimately they were killed
and his friends were appalled they
couldn't believe it
so how do we ask him so number one the
ritual writes that rebel asarab shimon
felt that since he was hired by the
nassar county police department since he
was hired by the local government the
local authority which is an honest
government and runs a fair judicial
system in such a situation he said that
he was allowed to prosecute people even
though there were no witnesses even
though
there was not the regular
criterion that we normally need in a
based in but he was hired by the local
government and the local government is
trustworthy and honest and if this is
the punishment for someone who does
something like this then so be it
and now is his position and the question
is how do we possibly very important
question the rashban and
raises this issue
and he says that the answer is that if
you have somebody who is
sibo lassos dino mishpa if you have
somebody who is
put as a police officer somebody who is
part of the enforcement team but they
are
not self-appointed they are people who
were appointed by the community meaning
we pay taxes right so we obviously
if we didn't trust nassau county we
wouldn't pay taxes to them we wouldn't
live here correct
so by the virtue of the fact that we
elect our officials and that we pay
taxes and that we
go along with what goes on in our
municipality that means we trust them if
we didn't we would move out and go
somewhere else we have the option to do
that but from the fact that we live here
it means
that this is something we believe in
it's a system that we think is just and
if that's the case the rajba addresses
this point directly and he says since we
need to have an operating and
functioning system
of the society that we live in and this
is the way that it functions that we
have a police department and this is
what they do and they prosecute people
even shallow alpine
torah they don't follow the protocols
that the gemura describes they don't
follow the protocols that the shulhanara
mishpa writes but since we have a
relationship with the government and
this is a government that we trust and
this is how the judicial system works we
would be allowed to go along with it
even if it means that someone's going to
lose their life
says the rajba how do i know this is
true because herbalism shimon was right
and he was a nice jewish boy doing the
right thing and he was cleaning the
community out from all of their
potential problems and all the threats
that were coming along their way the
same sentiment is shared by the
tashbates another one of the gdolly
harishon who writes in achiva there was
a man whose name was let's say his name
was rouven he has a friend whose name is
shimon by the way rouvein the touch base
writes was blind and because he was
blind he was always nervous that people
were going to take advantage of him so
he was afraid he had stones somebody
once gave him a few
rubies a few beautiful sapphires and he
was nervous that someone was going to
steal it so how does he make sure so he
sewed them into his clothing who's going
to steal his his shirt nobody's going to
take his shirt off with him so he sewed
it into his clothing this way he knew it
was safe one fine day he has a friend
shimon who's always in and out of his
house one fine day
after reuven goes to sleep suddenly the
uh the stones are no longer anywhere to
be found in the clothing of ruvin now
how does anybody know that ruvain sewed
his clothes sewed his
stones into his clothing i mean how
would anybody know that unless you're
somebody who's always in his house and
somebody is very familiar what's going
on there so all eyes were pointed to
shimon and they said hey shimmer this
looks a little fishy you've been in and
out of his house you know what time he
goes to sleep at night you help him get
to bed you help him into the shower you
help him get dressed and undressed
obviously you're the one who is
responsible for this
terrible atrocity and this was a case
that was brought to the touch base and
they asked the touch base but how can we
prosecute nobody knows but we all have a
very clear assumption that it's him
because nobody else has been around it's
obvious that it's him and the touch base
right in such a situation even though we
know
that there are no adam and we know that
there is nobody who could corroborate
the story but it's very clear to all of
us that shimon is not innocent it's
clear that he's guilty in such a case he
says le tova samadina for the betterment
of our society in our community we are
allowed to prosecute based on our
understanding that's the best we can do
i but it doesn't follow the rules of
adam and hasra and it doesn't follow the
rules of to kosher ate him and it has to
be over bar mitzvah in this age and and
this kind of person it doesn't matter
doesn't matter because this is the only
way to have a functioning society this
is quoted the halacha
in the base yosef the basiliosi quotes
the rajba and he accepts their opinion
that it would not be considered a
problem to go ahead and prosecute even
though it doesn't follow the halachic
protocols that are normally expected to
be followed when we deal with
the uh based in system itself okay i
take an extra five minutes to finish up
the this part okay we'll finish the next
part next week but now we get to the
next issue and that is what about masira
and you hear this question all the time
people throw around the word mesira oh
it's mesira it's meseera what do we do
and the answer is as follows to
understand that number one you have to
look in
about the israel of surah
and there he says very clearly that we
are not allowed to give over an
individual who is a member of our
community lee day of decochaven the
issuer of masira is very clear you're
not allowed to hand someone over hang on
a minute
even if this person is horrible why
because we have no trust in the local
government that's what the shohan ark
says just put yourself back in the 1500s
and in the back of the times of the
gemara you have pogroms going on you
have the crusades you have all this all
this hatred toward the jewish community
what do you think they're going to do if
you bring somebody in who got in a fight
in the bar on you know one night and and
beat somebody else up you think they're
going to give them a fair trial of
course they won't they're going to
destroy them they're going to kill him
here's an opportunity to kill a jew so
that's why there's an israel seerah and
so much so that shahnawaz then continues
and says if you know that there's a
member of the community who is handing
other members over to the local
government he is considered like a
rotsaya and you're allowed to kill him
that's how far it goes so the israel of
basira is real it's not made up it's
real
nowadays we have a very different set of
circumstances why is that because
nowadays we live in a democracy we live
with a fair judicial system where people
have a right for the most part again
obviously there are always holes in the
system but for the most part we believe
that we're living in a fair country and
we're living where people have a fair
opportunity to defend themselves and
have the opportunity to
to have a fair chance at clearing their
name and clearing the story
and doing what needs to be done and they
do not discriminate against jews usually
right sometimes you have these
aberrations but usually we do not assume
that there's going to be a
discrimination against this group or
that group or this color or that color
the assumption is that there's going to
be a fair trial based on the judicial
system that we have set up here in the
united states and therefore the whole
issue of nasira is not really as
applicable as it once was now you'll ask
how dare you say such a thing who are
you to argue with the shuffle araf it's
not me saying this the shulkhan actually
discusses this the hashilhan writes the
reason why i think it's important to
read all this from the sources is
because sometimes you talk to people and
they say where'd you get that from how
do you know the answer is it's all there
you just have to know where to look
shulhan writes it very clearly in
hoshomishba where he says
that in the days of medinas
they lived in uncivilized countries and
the era says in the days of the gemara
they were afraid that the local
municipality was going to come and steal
their house and steal their money so he
says if you're living in such an
outrageous kind of society with such a
government on top of you of course
there's an issuer of mesira however he
says
nowadays
africa there are some african countries
says the arthashohan where it's still
that way and it's totally uncivilized
and you can have no trust in the
government at all or in the police force
and we know in south africa there are
many stories about the the bribery going
on and all this all this craziness and
therefore he says that is exactly what
the israel is however he says when we're
dealing with our community who lives
here in europe and at the time he says
we do have a
fair judgment and we do have a fair
judicial system that is set up and we do
believe that everyone's going to have
the opportunity to present themselves in
court and to defend themselves as best
as they can and to try to be like
everybody else and a jew is not going to
be discriminated against in such a case
he says the whole discussion that the
shahana and the gemara have about mesira
is irrelevant because it's not at all
the set of circumstances that we have
today beyond that even if you want to
say that there still is an issue of
masira and you still have to worry
because you don't trust the government
and you do think they're going to
discriminate you have all kinds of
conspiracy theorists who believe in this
even if you do believe that that is true
there's an additional point to add here
and that is the rambam says
even when and this is quoted in
when you so that somebody is going to be
judged unfairly because of mesira if you
hand them over to the local authorities
they're going to be punished far more
severely than they deserve and they're
not going to be given a fair chance says
the rambam if you're dealing with
somebody who is a public menace
if we're dealing with somebody who is a
danger to the rabbit who's a danger to
the community then the rambam says all
bets are off the mesira issue is off the
table
that's what the rambam writes and the
shofar quotes it that somebody who is
mitsaar
somebody was a public danger somebody
was a hazard and a threat to the
community in a certain sense mutter the
most gay even under the old conditions
of the uncivilized countries and the
unjust judicial system
even in such a case the rambam and the
shahnarak say the issue of masira would
not apply because the stakes are too
high think about a potential abuser and
as we know the research has showed time
and again so clearly that these
individuals are repeat offenders it
doesn't happen once it's just not the
case it does not happen in a vacuum it
will happen over and over again and
there's no greater example of this
rambam than a person who's involved in
this kind of activity that is somebody
who has made cerebellum somebody who is
a danger to the public health a danger
he's a hazard to society and we need to
make sure that we do everything we can
to get this person off the streets the
rambam says even if you live in one of
those countries where the person is not
going to run a fair trial
they have to be prosecuted they have to
be handed over because the stakes are
just too high
so that is with regard to that now many
people question the rambam where did he
get that idea that if somebody is a
maidsela robin we should go ahead and be
most of them it's a good question but
it's what the ram says and that's the
way the shuffle on our pass comes i see
that we're already over time so we'll
continue emir to shem next week if
people are interested in this topic i
think it's important but for now i think
we've gotten a few of the issues out of
the way and we can continue with some of
the other very pertinent and very
relevant issues next week