Rabbi Tovia Singer | The Deal W/ Nissim Black

[Music] Rabbi thank you so much for joining me on the deal today it is like a long time coming long time coming and I've been uh looking and anticipating this day for a very very long time so I appreciate having you on it's great having me on and it's a big I don't know you must have given a lot of it's a big and I can't get no can get over it and uh it's ajy to join you thank you so I want you to I want you to start because you know for me altogether we got a lot of delicate situations that we need to discuss right so um I want you to start by giving um you know a shortened version I guess maybe if you will uh of your story and how you got into Outreach Judaism like how this even came about right so I've been doing this meaning I've been helping Jews in the church return back to the truth the beauty of the Jewish faith for more than 40 years how uh because I encountered missionaries standing on the street corners of New York passing out tracks telling uh my people why believing in Jesus Yeshua is the most Jewish thing you can do I mean I was born 15 years after the Holocaust I grew up where people were walking around with numbers on their arms I knew what Christian countries did to my family and the notion that here are people who are on the streets of New York the largest Center of Jewish life in America telling them they should convert to Christianity of course they don't use those terms I was just shocked I was appold and I began to argue them I think I was 16 years old wow and when you argue with these Street missionaries not it it's not the most satisfying experience in the world right and it was a yeah it was a conversation that was going absolutely nowhere very quickly an elderly man observed this spectacle on the corner of 47 Street in Fifth Avenue right by Diamond District was a Saturday night and he he pulled me away from them and he said don't argue with them you don't know enough you don't know enough if you want to do something to fight missionaries why don't you follow them around and as they give out papers put up posters you pull them down I was just a by that I went to Yeshiva I went to Yeshiva went to a good yes what he is so like what do you mean I don't know enough right right like I went to Yeshiva I went to Yeshiva that was so famous they named a space station after it Yeshiva I mean there's like I don't know enough like these I wasn't sure I was you know these people were Jewish anyway I went to Israel for the first time my life old city of Jerusalem my uncle lived there and he showed me that he had a Christian Bible from a guest at his home the previous Shabbat a King James Bible red letter Edition right and I told him he was very proud of this my Uncle mayor of blessed memory he held it up he couldn't get over he had a King James Bible like he had the manual from the other team and give a look at what I got here and I told that's what I wanted to read and I began to study it and I was really shocked I was Mish a 34 MAV I sat on the stoop and I was blown away as I read the Christian Bible what it had to say about the Jews how it mischaracterized the Jewish scriptures and I knew something had to be done and it wasn't that long I'm still I'm a young kid and I was at the Western World first time in Israel praying at such a holy place I was in another world you know what it's like listen right and when you stand in the daving in mid in the middle of my prayers I feel a tap on my shoulder I'm in the middle of daving and someone's tapping who's tapping in the middle I turn around there's a fellow standing there with a A yamako you know the cardboard ones yeah and he and he and he is me excuse me do you know the Lord like what what what am I doing I'm playing handball what am I doing like what what am I what are we doing here exactly was so I I said of course I do I went to Yeshiva so he had this very curious look he said you mean you know who Yeshua is I said of course I do I went to yeshu with him he was in my class I was thinking Yeshua Jakob was I had no I had no this is just clueless thing but we right there began to unpack this cross cultural Communications problem we both studied together in Israel we returned back to New York area where we were both from at the time wow and this young man yeah this young fellow did Chua he's a r today in the United States so wow that blew my mind away it blew my mind away that a Jew could become a Christian it was and it blew my mind away that they really are the vast majority of them are very sincere people they really care they don't see themselves as traitors against their people right no one taught them they don't know so I've devoted my life to this that's really Where it All Began that's amazing so for people like me who come from that World um which is uh a lot of these things they get very Delegate for me because like for instance my father is a is a pastor right we never have this conversation um we never really need to in in the terms of because I love my father he loves me he's very happy of what I'm doing doing in the world and I'm happy to see him you know this was a person who um changed his life and this is going to set up my next question like my father one point was a serious drug dealer serious drug dealer um and and was able to change I'm talking about big house he had he had houses that he he was operating the whole situation he was he was very very involved um you can imagine all the other things that that come with that type of life and the street life and for him to turn around completely change his life um later on in his years and to become you know now today he's a pastor he's a theologian he's a professor at a at a at a Bible College you know even apologetics is uh he spent years uh teaching and different things like that he has an affinity for Judaism he happens to be very very pro- Israel so even even with all that said we know there's Hot Topics we just never touch those things so the question is is is people with say a lot of times that use this proof I also had a very you know crazy up upbringing maybe even as a result of the way that he lived early on and what what happened to me so now I've also changed my life and eventually at the end of of of of my chapter I came to Judaism it wasn't directly obviously you know through Christianity first but what do you say to people that see something so striking because a lot of people when they come to Christianity it's because they had some major hardship or they went through some crazy life they're not usually you what I'm saying people who didn't go through things and so when people see that people make a major dramatic change they go oh well then Jesus must be real this must be true this must be you know what what is your answer for something like that yeah one of the things that a person observes very quickly is that people of every Faith Christianity Islam Judaism people become har krishnas they all describe being at a very low point and their religious uh conversion Muhammad Ali he became transformed his life he J was went from cases clay to Muhammad Ali A a completely different person all these religions are can't all be true that means they have mutually exclusive claims but there's something very striking about the person who gives the testimonial of why he's accept Jesus in his life and and you've heard in your life and the testimon will go something like this okay it goes like you know understand I was a heroin addict I had needle marks up and down my arm I was laying on the streets of New York and Seattle I was drunk I was a prostitute I was laying in my own vomit and that's when I found Jesus right that's that's I'm not I I'm asking I'm asking that's how it go right the people who are who are like from B Park who don't nothing right now just take my for that's the way the testimonials go right now conversely there's something very striking I if you meet people who are in the conversion programs to Judaism here in Israel throughout the Holy Land There are conversion programs the vast majority of them are former Evangelical Christians there are some former Hindus Buddhist the vast majority of them are devout Christians and yes and tell me give me your testimony of why you want you converting to Judaism so this is not what you're likely to hear oh you want to know let me tell you what happened I was drunk I was high I was laying on the streets of Midtown mon in my own vomit I had a marijuana in one hand and cocaine in my other nose and then and right there laying on the streets in the middle of the night I found Moses this is a this is a very very unlikely event now why is that so this is what what this is so striking and if I was sitting in a room full of everyone go Rabbi so there's so very striking about that it's very clear that the people who are becoming fundamentalist Christians are doing it out of a low point of their lives whereas people who are converting to Judaism are doing it of a place of strength they're not say I came to Moses because I was on drugs no I studied the scripture I was at the high point and the reason is the following the all transformations but people struggle with self-esteem that's the bottom of it all no doubt about it self how when you look in the mirror who do you see we see our worst critic very frequently but what Christianity does is it affirms our low self-esteem it says you know why you think you're a sinner you know why you think you're because you were hopeless you were born in sin you were conceived in iniquity you are lost and therefore Jesus he is the only person who's perfect and he is God manifest In the Flesh he happens to be a white guy for some reason with Gorgeous Hair amazing like you can't have right no it can't be a Chinese Jesus or a short fat bll Jesus no no no he's got to be like a guy who looks like he's off of a Vogue magazine cover like if you can invent a religion by the if you're a Christian don't be offended but it's a little ridiculous the guy looks like he's from a Macy's catalog but the point is that what am I going to say I can't you know they all look I want it real I want it real I want it real right I made a disclaim at the beginning that they should know that you know we're go we're shooting straight we're shooting straight we're shooting it straight you want straight what do you want to so Christianity then the teachings of Christianity convey the following message this is all over the place and that is you are a sinner you are hopeless there is no nothing you can do there is no work there is no initiative that you can advance that can save yourself because you're lost why because Satan is so powerful because you were born in sin in fact the original sin has infected you you're there's nothing you can do you're made of flesh flesh right if you're listening to my voice right now and you don't know what I'm talking about that means you have never been to a church in your life this is every Sunday morning this is not this doesn't just come up in church like bler this is every single these jokes took up though this is this this is the main stay this is all you hear every Sunday every Bible class you're so what Christianity does and this is a very very successful spin is it affirms the low self-esteem it says you know why you feel ugly you feel worthless you feel like a sinner you feel hopeless because you are and therefore only Jesus could save you are you willing to surrender everything so this is a very powerful message it's a it's a it's not a ticket to Heaven Judaism the prophets of Israel a blessed memory these are the greatest men and women that ever lived had the very opposite message you'll never find that kind of message anywhere in the Holy scriptures that's abely Bible it's the opposite it's seek the Lord when you find him call out to him when he's near if you return to me and I will return to you in Jeremiah says unbelievable in the early chapter Jeremiah says even though it's true in Jewish law if a a woman is unfaithful to her husband and she's an adulteress and she goes and marries another man the husband can never take her back he can't remarry her he can't say I forgive you but says even though that's the case the almighty Blessed Be His holy name says I'll take you back return to me unbelievable say that's what Judaism does when I say Judaism this is the message of the Hebrew prophets you're not going to find anything like Romans chapter 3 inak nothing if if second Corinthians 5:21 was anywhere in tanak we'd all be in church right now the message of the Prophet the message of the prophets is that you can do it you are cre the image of godem loves you and he wants to be close to you kiss me with the kisses of thy lips for thy love is better than wine that's how the book of s songs begin written by the great King Solomon that's so it is true that in the conversion to any religion is transformative but it is so striking it's so transparent that it's a completely different message and a different way of reaching the nsha and the one that is transmitted by people like Isaiah Jeremiah Ezekiel these are the great rabbis of the Jewish people Judaism is reic Judaism but Moses is our chief Rabbi no doubt about it so so so listen Rabbi think about this you know and I've heard you say this before also too what happens is generally when you talk about that contrast of what happens when a person converts to a different religion right my first religion was Islam my grandfather was a Sunni Muslim that the first religion I knew I prayed with them five times a day later on I had friends that were um uh you know a friend in particular was very adamant about me going to this hip hop program which happened to be at a missionary Center the Union Gospel Mission which and and all allir always say I I love that I went through that that situation in my life these were people that really cared about me took me out of the situation that I was in but there is something about what happens afterwards what happens afterwards is when a person becomes very very serious about their faith that they start to look at the I became a bible thumper when you become a bible thumper something happens you start you start seeing things you start noticing things and you start asking a lot of questions now in my teen years when I became very very devout Christian um you know I never got real answers to my questions never got real answers to my questions so later on after I live my life and I find myself at a low point or whatever and I started praying again and I'm already on my up then I start to think about you know what I had a lot of questions when I read the bible let me go get the Bible again and that's that's basically what started me on this journey what you're saying the contrast of a person who converts either to Christianity or either converts to to you know other other religions but Christianity in particular because that's the one that you you deal with the most um you see this low Point like you're saying but the opposite is you hear story after Story of I was a pastor and I stood up on a Sunday I stood up on a Saturday and I sat in front of everybody this is all crap and I'm leaving I've heard so many stories like that it's never usually the person that doesn't learn it's the person that does learn that ends up coming to to to to to Judaism a person that learns it more and goes deeper that's what usually happens and it has to be an interesting work even in your work I you know Rabbi scoach was a big part of my journey years I know he's one of your colleagues also um and I remember you know sitting with him and talking with him one of the years after I had already you know left and I was already converted and and he found and I'm sure you probably find the same thing what I want to ask you about is that most of the time he's going out to all these different conferences I met him at one of the conferences and what they find is that a whole lot more non-jews are coming out converting to Judaism than it are Jews who are actually going and converting into Christianity so talk to me about that like how you've seen this whole thing flip and and and and in that context this is mindblowing you know the Novi says utu of vua let them come up with a plan the enemies of Israel it will come to know D let them plot a plot the it will not be established because God of Israel is with you I'm going to say this and it's going to blow you the viewers out of the water listen like you've never listened in your life there is probably no organization in the world that's more responsible for the conversion of non-jews to Judaism than the Messianic movement and Jews for Jesus those had the that means these really are the enemies of K is their intention when the Messianic movement began in 1973 essentially their intention was to convert the Jews and use indigenous missions meaning converting Jews in our own culture using Jewish symbols icons say Yeshua don't say Jesus Christ don't say come to church go to m but what happened was it ignited such curiosity among non-jews who went wow this Messianic movement seems to be the more authentic expression of yesu I mean this is probably how Yeshua prayed in Hebrew he didn't say Jesus Christ it wasn't James it was yob and oh so what happens is Messianic congregations are loaded with non-jews I know this comes as a huge surprise to the No No I there's there's a there's a cloud first off Rabbi you should know cuz I came from a Messianic uh Messianic Cong uh congregation so wherever the the wherever it's the closest and the most traditional and more like Orthodox Judaism there's more non-jews wherever it's more like church on Sunday you may have more Jews in there so it's very interesting CLA but that's uh the way it works so I used to go to those conferences I used to go to those conferences Messianic conferences and when I saw people walking in the Marriott hotel at a Messi at an mjaa conference Messi Messianic Jia lines or umjc those are the two big ones orc umjc so when I saw people atjc dressed like the I definitely knew these people are truck drivers that means I knew because and then all you do is you like the guys are walking around with a sh and everything they look like they just I don't know what they came out of you know they came out of Mayor sh these people guarantee you are not Jewish and they're overcompensating conversely the Jews who convert to Christianity they're not really interest of the Messianic movement they didn't convert to Christianity during the Messianic movement they're in southern baptist churches they're in Assemblies of God charismatic churches so it's all very strange of there are some exceptions but the vast vast majority of Messianic congregations there is uh Beth Yeshua in Philadelphia which is big and has a lot of Jews in it that's a big place and that's the turnoff family that's an all so they have quite a few Jews in the Philadelphia area but that's an anomaly in the vast majority of Messianic congregations non-jews if you want to find the Jews in churches you'll find them in the as you said in the southern baptist Baptist Missouri Cate Lutheran Churches 7eventh Day Advent they're in the churches they're not interest in this stuff so that's exactly the great case and what happens is what happened too is that people are told we need to witness to the Jews what do you have to do you got to learn Jewish stuff then they start watching YouTube videos me and others Michael and so and then they're opening up an art scroll going gosh I I don't know how to read Hebrew and then they're going wait one second here the Jews aren't really necessarily blind there is aren't scales over their eyes there is Veil over their rise as Paul insists in 2 Corinthians 3 and4 there's a reason why Jews don't accept Jesus as the Jewish Messiah and it's not because we're blinded and because God grafted in the wild branches no and they're pounding doors say let us in and they're either converting to judism or becoming Ben no all over the world right it's an amazing thing but it's it's that contrast I think you know what you spoke about it before is that when you look at it the Jews who end up converting to Christianity as you have said before are not generally the the the learnning Jews they're not getting guys from the mirror right so they're coming from somewhere but they're not coming from the mirror and the people it's it's almost like you know when a person goes to Christianity that's after thoroughly studying and coming over contradiction after contradiction or or or or whatever something's not sitting right for them and then these are people who know the Bible very well right so it seems to be like there's a there's a flip around there is a reason my friends why uh there are thousands of Christian schools in America for Christian children and none of them teach Hebrew to Christian boys and girls none of them do even though Christians believe that the Hebrew Bible was written in Lashes in the Holy tongue right all Christians believe that the Hebrew scriptures is the word of God yet they would rather in a middle school in Houston Dallas they would rather be teaching Latin than Biblical Hebrew to kids now it's true that by the time you're 19 you're going off to college so sure you can go to Dallas theological to Moody and then you could take courses in Biblical Hebrew if you want to become a minister you have to take a few semesters of biblical but it's too late because what you're doing when you're 20 years old and you're a devout Christian you're learning a little Hebrew not enough to to go through it and then you're just reading Jesus into everything an angel Lord ah must be Jesus Three Angels encounter Abraham Genesis Chapter 18 must be the Trinity so they're reading at that stage in their Christian Life they're then reading they're reading the Jewish Bible through a christological filter a christological grid and they're in enormous amount of trouble my heart goes out to that because they're reading through a King James and NIV these are not just bad translations these a corrupt translation they they they have an intention it's very clear that when you read these texts and you look at them they have an intention the way that they flip verses the way that they they're they're they're adding things in you know even the idea of the Trinity the the father the son that that that's not an original manuscript right so like there's a lot of these things that uh that you've seen um take place over the years and so many people I mean I guess the thing that gets me is is that you know over the years people have asked me you know how come under your family no other people got interested what about your friend what most people are not busy reading the text I think that that's the problem nobody is nobody's really looking at it or trying to dig in or or if they are is just like you said they have a filter the way that they seen it already like if you read the book backwards of course you're going to see it's already been colored the whole entire thing's been colored everything's there already so that's the way that you're going to see it if you read the book the opposite direction you'll never come to this conclusion so this has been one of the things that's bothered me the most and I I want you to help me come to uh some type of calm about this I think the biggest issue for me has been the arrogance overall of of the church in general the arrogance by what I mean is is that if a person took a tanak and you put them in the middle of the desert they never knew anything about it they would probably not even come to the conclusion of there being a a messiah a messiah they may know there's some type of redeemer is it God is it not but if a person just read it you need oral Torah in order to tell you that this is speaking about mssiah this is talking about you know God yeah this is not talking about God this is talking about Messiah and this is talking about you know this Redeemer so the question is is that after the rabbis have come along and they've been able to uh basically make it clear that this is speaking about Messiah we understand that there's Messiah is not just a a a a a a a situation where we're discussing things about our feelings how we feel about things it's a h issue who Messiah is is AIC issue there's a there's a halic issue with who Messiah so that means let's call what call the law of it rules that means that there's rules so if a religion comes along later on you followed the manuscript to some point at some point Judaism was right at some point the rabbis were completely 100% right and this idea of M because else the world wouldn't have an idea of what it is right because we had this from the altar so then after the the the founding of Christianity the counsil of n everything else the church somehow has this authority to turn its face back to Judaism and say no you're wrong we're right about Mia but but but guys where did you get it from where'd you get the whole entire cont you you how can you now take it and then now we're going to change all the rules no it didn't mean this it meant he's coming two times then it meant this and then I I want to know your answer on this it seems like it's a very very ER uh place that where we'll sit in you know a guy who wants to come in he comes and learns and everything like that and the whole thing afterwards he just wants to become an instructor and change everything so that's my question yeah so there are hundreds of passages throughout Tanakh that describe the Messianic age there are hundreds of them wow Messiah however as you alluded to is mentioned very infrequently in fact the word mesiah that Hebrew word appears in tanak 39 times and the Shocker is in not one of those passages with that word appears is it ever referring to the miach m is not called the Messiah in tanak that's a term we use now right however the Messiah is described in tanak in very few places most people would not even know where to look for it but you do have in Isaiah chapter 4 we don't chapter 2 this this is not a miracle worker he will judge between nations and rebuke many peoples that's it that's it there's no Miracle Worker no born born of a virgin no dying no resurrecting all this I mean when Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15 verse 2 and three he said that Jesus died and was killed and he was crucified and resurrected on the third day according to the scripture according to the scripture guess what there ain't no such scripture it doesn't exist it's a phantom text Paul is literally inventing this so what you have in Tanakh is very few passages about the msia it's about how the world will be transformed and there's nothing about the mhia being a miracle worker it's not to say that he won't do Miracles maybe he will for tanak this is very unimportant Second Coming what a wonderful claim the Christian Christianity invented in order to explain away a Failed Messiah I mean if the Messiah can come twice then my sister what could be the Messiah ah she didn't do a thing H second coming I mean doesn't anyone get I mean I want to talk to the Christians here for a moment I mean use there's a reason why you are don't belong to the Church of the Latter Day Saints okay I'm if you're not a Christian you can listen in but this is not for I want to talk to the Christians of Roman there is a reason why you reject the Roman Catholic Church why because you believe that these iterations of Christianity and you'd say so-called Christianity are in fact unsupported by the Bible you're using critical thinking and saying oh they're not it's unbiblical well just use that same sort of critical thinking and go there is nothing in the Hebrew Bible that says the Messiah is going to go around doing Miracles none of those things what will happen in the messian age is there will be a worldwide knowledge of God the knowledge of God will cover the world as the water covers the sea there's nothing about a messiah being God on the contrary we're told about Messiah I said rarely but it's there in Isaiah 11 CH verses 2 and three that he hashem's spirit will be upon Him and He will fear God verse three and he will be filled with the fear of the Lord I need to tell you something God fears no one and godes certainely doesn't fear himself people who are afraid of themselves are put away in mental institutions so it is so clear from the from T that m is not God but he fears Hashem and he's like d h he's going to bring back the building of the temple the sacrificial system restored read the last nine chapters of the Book of Ezekiel the Bas mdash is going to be built the in gathering the Exiles today we're we're right there more than half of the Jews in the world are live here in AR live in holy that did not exist that did not happen since the first temple period never in the second temple with the majority of the Jews living in AR not even close so these are the kinds of things we're looking for now the church was unhappy with this and therefore you're right the church inserts the doctrine of the Trinity into first John 57 and8 which isn't there and Christian Scholars know that the doctrine of the Trinity the word Trinity was invented around the year 200 by a guy named tertullian from North Africa from Carthage he invented it and then it was hammered out as Orthodoxy as you said at the Council of NAA in 325 and Christians are still fighting over this why are they fighting over it if it's so obviously stated in the Christian Bible right right so that's the whole deal the whole deal is we Moses is our Rabbi Isaiah is our chief Rabbi Jeremiah is the person we look to we look tocal these books are pregnant with Messianic prophecy but very little about the Messiah and this bothered the church a lot like like because when you for those you've never been to church I'm not setting up a stman here from the moment you walk in to the moment you leave you're going to hear the word Jesus 500 times just Jesus Jesus Jesus Jesus Jesus Jesus that's how it goes be like Jesus look like Jesus whatever it is is Jesus all over the place but the problem that the church had to confront is when you go through the Hebrew Bible like there's no Jesus anywhere like where is this right it doesn't comport so what they had to do is go ah when we have an angel of the Lord that's really talking about Jesus when you see a malem that will go before you in the book of Exodus oh that's really Jesus that's a theophany a burning bush that's Jesus so Jesus everywhere but it's not in the plain text and you're right they had to alter their own New Testament in order to make it appear as though the Trinity was there and Christians now have come to know that so here's the question about that um let's go back a little bit about this distrust that Christians have from the Latter-Day Saints it's another thing that always bothered me and that sort of was my cross my Crossroads with everything was I almost felt like there was no more of a foundation to stand on once you study uh Christian history and you start to learn about the accounts of NAIA and I started to go through church fathers I want to go dig deep most Christians will not do that it won't dig deep and even probably never even heard from where I come from church fathers even so one of the biggest issues you have is that when it when you look at you know Orthodox Christianity there are a lot of things that are very very obvious are invented right that it's sort of in a sense you know people would say that when when Paul says that I didn't come to you with with the with fables and and all these different uh stories and different things like that or not the traditions of men that's the whole that's a very big thing um that a lot of Christians talk about you have a problem when Paul says that you know keep to the Traditions that I taught you so in Orthodox Christianity they are obviously they have a Mur they have a tradition that this is this is what I was taught so there's this big argument now most Christians don't believe in the the traditions of the Catholic Church they don't believe in the way that they canonize scripture they don't believe in you know a lot of the other things the the worship even of Mary and everything else and statues and else so it's it's a beginning but it's almost like you start aing at a tree and then you never finish you get to a place where he's like oh it's better like that but you don't finish going through it it's almost like a stop of like why why'd you guys stop why why' you stop because if if they have to stop at some point because then there's no longer a foundation to stand on because the Protestant Christianity and Evangelical Christianity as we know it's to that is that has come from it the foundation that it has stands on top of the of of the Orthodox church so you have a major major problem because the more and more Discovery that's being found over the years of like Messianic chist Messianic Judaism started in its way to convert Jews later on this is birthed into more and people realizing that how these people were actually Jewish Judaism was it and then we start to learn that like you know one of the biggest things was me with the with K or the holidays the holidays these holidays are not even in the Christian Bible where they come from and the more people start hacking hacking hacking then you start to realize that you don't even have a foundation to stand on so why do you think people so blindly continue to go with it when they don't even believe and and the mother who gave birth to you to some some degree you know there's a joke why did God create Mormons so Christians would know how Jews feel that's really the bottom line I mean so the issue is is that you know Christians evangelic Christians live in Two Worlds on one hand they say solo scriptor the Bible alone which is the foundation of the Reformation we don't believe in Traditions we don't we believe in only what the Bible says like how do you know Matthew wrote Matthew Luke wrote Luke I mean that comes from irus in the year0 right mean there's nothing Matthew does not say you know you're surely Matthew and it's very clear in Matthew chapter 9:9 Matthew did not write the Book of Matthew he's writing about Matthew in the third person Luke The Book of Luke for those who know know that didn't go to Yeshiva The Book of Luke does not end sincerely your with Beth wishes for a happy holiday Luke it doesn't end that way this is all Christian Traditions all second century and prior to irenaeus really the earlier Church fathers whether it was just and so on they just refer to these as the apostles and the Evangelist they had no idea so what happens is that the Evangelical lives in two different universes and they often can't work this through so on one hand they only accept the Traditions that Paul invented that's somehow not held up to scr so when Paul takes passages out of context when he rips Deuteronomy chapter 30 to pieces in Romans chapter 10 so that's okay when the T says there's a very there's important fundamental principle in t that you have to be kind to animals when you have an ax that's shredding you can't put a muzzle on it duter right so Paul says Ah he says in 1 Corinthians chapter 9:10 he says do you really think that God cares about oxin he doesn't care he's really talking about giving money to missionaries like what where' he come so like somehow Paul's oral Torah that that's fine but then they ignore everything else you know the Roman Catholics I I spent a lot of time in the Far East the Roman Catholics they got miracles going up and down why don't you believe them I mean there are people in the Philippines and in s Paulo that have pancakes with Mary every Sunday morning like no somehow so those Miracles we don't accept because we only accept the Miracles in our iteration of Christianity which means there are thousands of sex Christianity right thousands you know the Catholic church was right in the Council of Trent in the 16th century it was an antire Reformation Council was the longest ecumenical council of the Catholic church in history they said that you Protestants think you're pulling away and you're getting rid of the Pope you're going to have a thousand popes and they were right so what happen is you've got to even be baptized if you're if you want to go into Church of Christ you can't get baptized from a Lutheran Church it don't count so it's s like you're like covered in it so what happens is that Christians only it's our oral Traditions that Matthew wrote Matthew is our oral tradition that this doctor in Trinity and it's nowhere to be found in the Christian Bible nowhere it's just the opposite in John chapter 14 Jesus Weir to says the father is greater than I am whoa where did that come from right right so so it's so what what's very clear is that that Christ Evangelical Christians dismiss the Miracles that occur in the Mormon Church dismiss Miracles that that occur in the Roman Catholic Church in the Orthodox Church they've got icons in Greek Orthodox Russian Orthodox churches that are crying and bleeding they've got Russian Orthodox churches with big icons and Blood starts coming out of the icon well somehow that you dismiss but someone who had a cold for two weeks and recovered aha this proves Jesus so when you I'm not this is what goes on and then some and if everybody prays for something and then what happens was it's it's such a confirmation bias what happens if somebody's sick right so someone's sick so we're GNA pray over him right he get someone gets better right so he say ah this is a miracle this proves Jesus the Messiah but when they pray over somebody and the person died they don't go ah it shows Jesus not the Messiah so it's a it's this bias confirmation it's it's it's it's called false it's it's a elimin failures that this whole thing is a shell game it's just dealing from the bottom of the deck this is three card Monty they played that on the streets of Seattle New York where a guy stands there with three cor cards and pick it and you don't see the slide this is theological slide of hand that's what's going it's crazy crazy crazy crazy you said that so and your years of of doing this what have you seen um as being the most effective method I mean there's a lot of other people who probably also um want to want to take this SSM forehead who want to be able to bring yiden back home they want to bring Jews back to back to Judaism and it's a very very important thing it's not like you know and it's very very hard to explain and first thing also to I want to I want to say even before I get to that question because I you know I don't I don't want to go over this some of the most beautiful people that I've met have been Christian people loving caring take the shirt off the B and there's a lot of these people and they're genuine it's not like they're just like you know whatever like I I I do work with Christians I I and and and I have a genuine love and I there a certain level of of feeling like you know wow you know you're on team God you know what I'm saying especially with what's going on in the world today you're on team God right and there's some things where we obviously share what do you say now seeing the war on God right from from from the world and is there any need to make efforts to connect with Christians or do you have relationships with Christians as well that you you do work with or different things like that that's my that's my question is there any room for any of that was my question any type of connection and working together so first of all so I don't as you know need some I I don't need to approach Christians because I don't know but there something in the order of about 20 million people watching on on YouTube probably a little more than that so and you know have a fairly large channel so I'm now at a stage I mean I've written books on it I used to do a lot of public speaking let's get biblical let's go get that by the way one and two yeah but most people don't read thousand page books I mean they know they want to watch it so today people are watching it it's really making a difference in their life when you talking about how to approach a Christian I feel the same way and I want to say this I'm going to say this straight away when I was a kid I didn't like Christians I didn't care what they believe I just want to stay clear of them I grew up as I said with uh with survivors of the show who who somehow managed to survive Hitler's ovens and Hitler's ovens were only located in Christian countries right there was no there was no guest chamber there was no guas chamber in a Buddhist country they the Hindus weren't doing this to us right I mean it it's just the way it was so I saw not I never as a kid and anyone who grew up in Brooklyn knows this Jewish kid Orthodox kid I never passed by a bunch of kids they were all Christians catholic whatever they were Italian Puerto Ric what the whole the whole deal I never passed by and they had anything nice to say to me they always used to say they would always say to me that I killed Jesus and I don't go like I wasn't even in the neighborhood at the time I thought they were crazy right for so I thought I didn't I really didn't care about them and what happened what you're describing is exactly what happened to me later on in my 20s I began to meet Christians such nice good people at leaving the hood leaving Brooklyn leaving this highly gentrified area and then meeting them and going wow these are very very good people and what I do when I interact with the chrisan is I I listen I think that's the key to be able to interact is to learn you know you know I re used to say Hashem God gave you two ears and one mouth try to maintain that ratio right I listen a lot I I let the Christian explain to me why I should believe in Jesus and I respond to their point rather than initiate this is why you shouldn't be a Christian this is why you should become a Ben no this no and in fact all my show all my shows are people call in life why why don't they just give speeches because I'm curious about what people are asking and responding to that live unscripted and I find that if you answer people's questions in a thoughtful way um it makes a very big difference and also you go to tanak you go to scriptures and you ask one simple question what is God's opinion what does Hashem think about that like isn't that the most important thing and then you go to scripture and then you look it for yourself and as you said because these Christians really care about God if I was they're not playing man they're not playing it's not like you know it's on one level you you have like you know when people grown in you're flooded with God this God that God this and God that it's it it could be a little bit it could be a little bit different but a lot of these they're not playing about God they're serious about what they believe in and they're wholeheartedly devout and they and they're and and you see a lot of Fire coming from some some of these people but they they they they just didn't read they just didn't like go deeper into the text and I don't I don't understand you know sort of how it worked out that way but you you understand tell you something crazy and this will surprise our viewers the hardest Christians to reach are liberal Christians that's the truth right when I when I am told that there's a Jew who's in an Episcopalian Church in St John the Divine that's going to be the hardest case possible right I I don't I I nothing meant ble here but when I meet like a Hillary Clinton kind of Christian she's a Methodist but liberal right she's liberal right those are the hardest people because they're not it's the the person who says to me I believe in the Bible and I believe it's the word of God and I believe it's Canon and I believe it's unfall and inherent and that is my that person is going to come home that person come to the god of Abraham Isaac and Jacob the liberal Christian the person who doesn't take their Bible seriously they're not going to take me seriously because I'm only looking at scripture so it the liberal Christians are are are not saying they're not interested but that's very very tough now you're very as a caveat it's very unlikely to have this kind of conversation with liberal Christian because liberal Christians you know like the Presbyterian USA Church okay big denomination cond rice and she her father was a pastor in that they don't even they don't care you know they all meeting com so forget that but it is the more Bible thumping Christians the more they care about the word and they know that the Hebrew Bible is the word of God Judaism and Christianity do not have a symmetrical relationship listen you the viewer listen very carefully we're not on the same playing field right listen judism could be true and Christianity fals Christianity can't be true and Judaism false the foundation has to be t you can't tell me you believe in Jesus because what Paul says you the source of Truth we are MIM Judaism I'm not trying to say are we're this or that the church's claim is that the proof and truth of Christianity can be demonstrated from your Old Testament in quotation marks Luke 24:44 it's in the Torah it's in the prophets in the Psalms the claim of the church is there are hundreds of Messianic prophecies that condemn that Jesus is your Messiah and you who are or were in the Messianic movement no I'm not making this up well if that's the case let's take a look and then when we take a look at these supposed prophecies what do we find we don't find support for the for the church claimed we find scandals passage has been altered so the more devout a chrisan is the easier it is to have a conversation because as you said n we have a common ground we have a common text that we love that we cherish and the conversation will go very well it's amazing so moving from there it's it's interesting because as um as time has gone on there has been a lot of um attempts to not approach Christianity from the TR traditional way or Mission missionary um efforts from the traditional way that we've known we mentioned that the Messianic movement started you know back I think in the' 60s I think it was um but today you and I you know we've talked and you know I've tried to help as much as I can uh but there's a lot of these covert missionaries who have been sneaking into synagogues sne sneaking into communities who have made major efforts to try to it's hard for me because I'm wonder I know I know some of these K I know some of them very very well some of them were my friends some of them were people that I knew very very well I can't say that all of them have it in their mind that they were actively trying to convert Jews but there are a lot of them that are you know elk being one of them that was a major major story that broke but there are the ones that actually are let's talk about these guys that are in this in between stage where they're sneaking in and they don't really have a effort in their mind to to to convert I don't know if you've encountered this you and I haven't had this conversation before but I know there's some of these guys who they sneak in they don't have an effort they don't want to make an effort to convert Jews but they want to uh be Jewish they believe that when when when Jesus said I think it was in in Matthew 20 something that the the the Pharisees sit in the seat of Moses what they say to do they 23 right so they go through all of these things and all these different passages and the more and more they start learning about Judaism they can't let the whole situation go and and and a lot like uh maybe the young lady who tried to challenge you a few weeks ago they start learning more about Judaism and they start to look at it so they come into they start learning cabala they start learning and now they can rationalize these things outside of scripture and they've already accepted Judaism as the the ultimate Authority and then they come and they sneak in they grow payis and beard and they come in and they and they and they and they're hanging out amongst the and they don't really intend to to do but they s in with ideas that are heretical and and they have things like is that a problem is it not a problem do you hold them the same as you know there's some other groups amongst us who hold their rebes as Messiah and different things like that or do you or do you look at it as something completely different all right so let's talk about a very famous case Michael elone his real name was Michael elk he's not wasn't even Jewish right I'm not going to go into the whole thing how he managed to pull this up but he managed to convince a Bez in Philadelphia that he's that he's Jewish and then he got SM from another group don't ask what happened he comes here and he's also performing Mila and he's claiming to be Jewish and he's doing saus means he's a scribe and the whole thing was a scam I want you the viewer to know this is not a new phenomena uh but in fact this goes back to the Christian Bible this technique of of portraying yourself to be something that you're not is advocated not just in the in the later part of the new but in the very earliest writings Paul himself in 1 Corinthians chapter 9 verse 20 2122 Paul says let me tell you boys and girls gather around let me tell you how it's done let me tell you what I do to the Jew I become as a Jew that I may gain the Jews to those that are under the law I become as one who's under the law that I may gain those who are under the law to those who are not in law I become as one who's not in law that I may gain them I can become all things to all men so by any means I may gain them and in Philippians 1:18 he says whether in pretense or in truth the gospels preached so this is not the idea that the me of what the Messianic movement is doing of marel Cohen is doing all this stuff Peter was doing this kind of stuff and Paul got really angry at him in Galatians in Galatians 2:11 when Peter said when when Paul said said that I told Peter to his face that he was a hypocrite for behaving one way around Jews one ways around Gentiles this is an old old Christian method but there is a there is an element here that people need to understand about the phenomena when people in missionaries for instance El Con was funded by Morning Star Ministries Major League missionary but there is a phenomenon that if you don't this don't know this don't understand this don't wrap your brain around this you're not going to understand the problem that we're confronting in virtually all cases the person who's most successful in converting Jews to Christianity are Gentiles who are Evangelical Christians and not professional missionaries I am sure there are many of you watching the show right now who knows of somebody a Jewish person that got involved in one of these groups if you ask that person who was that first Contact it'll be someone who's just a plain Guy meets at the church meets at a basketball court whatever it is always on the social level it's nobody be no Jew become joins the church because they met someone in Jews for Jesus out a track in the street you've never heard it it never happened okay so what El Cohen does and it's not just him as you mentioned there a whole band of them their role is not to sit around and just say hi why don't you accept Yeshua they don't do they'll do that on Christian television which Michael L Cohen did because they have to raise money so El Cohen while he's saying one thing here he's going on Morning Star Ministries and talking about how you need to bring the Jewish people to know about Yeshua so but the key the most important thing listen like you've never listened in your life the most important thing that Michael alone can do chosen people Ministries first Fruits of Zion friends of Isel the most important thing they can do is not themselves their them the the pros who are on the staff go out and convert Jews because then they blow their cover they never want to do that what they do instead is they bring in volunteers create a plausible deniability and train Gentile Evangelical Christians how to reach the Jews how to speak to the Jews how to bring the gospel to the Jews how to speak about Yeshua to the Jews and that's what what people don't see Jews the whole bunch of them and there are more and more that are going to be exposed in the coming weeks big stuff that's going down all the big huge stuff here in Israel mindblowing stuff it's been it's monst it's monst amazing but the the reason why people don't get this is people think that it's the Michael L con who actually converted people no the people think it's uh David Brickner of Jews for Jesus that's converting people no they don't convert anybody they go into churches they do their Passover um their you know Christ and the Passover programs in churches teaching these nice Baptists these nice charismatic Christians how to effectively reach their Jewish neighbors their Jewish friends their physici their attorney and that's how it works it's that's how the scam works now the way they're exposed very frequently is no money for support for missionary activity in Israel comes from Israel it's got to come from North America a lot of it from South Korea some of it from Europe it comes from abroad there's hundreds of millions of dollars spent on Jewish evangelism but how do you get your cut of the pie you've got to preach about you've got to go on television and speak about you got to put out videos saying this is what we're doing so support what I'm doing so we can bring the Gospel of Jews and that's bang how they've been exposed and we're going to continue exposing them people have to know that element of how it goes down right that's amazing amazing okay so my last but not least question because I really want to go all night but I know they're not going to let me go all night but I really want to go all night uh maybe we'll pick up after this uh because I have a whole lot more to say to you but I think my last question is on the on the you know because my my way is always to uh try to bring people to some type of you know it's hard because on one part I I I I was involved in Outreach you know I SM always say junior missionary card I was involved in Outreach and now you know when hasem took me and I and I left the Christian world and I came into yish I'm still involved in Outreach so I see that this has something to do with myam has something to do with My Soul how do we get more and I've see you do these lunch sometimes where you're speak there's many people there some even appear to be Christians some are not how do we how do we get to the bottom of this dialogue because the the qu the how do we get this dialogue to even get started on a on a grander scale because I feel like if people were able to really hash it out and really talk and and to be able to find these people you know do you feel like your YouTube is the best platform or do you feel like there's a way to be able to go out and get more people to really actually have these conversations and to Chen if you believe in something people ask me all the time you know cuz obviously I went I sat down with the Christian Bible I sat down a few different versions of him because of the mlus but I I went with a few different versions of them sat with the Quran the Christian Bible I was going eight hours a day going between these texts looking for the truth I wanted the emis I wanted the truth and I and I told God I'm not leave until I find the truth I was fasting three days at a time and going through all these different trying to find the truth really looking for most people not looking for God like that they and I started to ask myself why do I believe what I want to believe so people always ask me do you feel that it's important for you to search I'm a person who search so absolutely I feel like I'm a person I I I believe that person search only if they're going to do it with truth most people do not search with truth they search they have a certain desire and and the god they know about doesn't like the desire so then they move on they go and create another one are they are they they're so involved I think this is what you were talking about with some of the the liberal Christians or whatever but they get so involved in the world and what society says as morally and ethically correct that you have to they take you know almost like you're saying from reading the New Testament to the old they take from society and they color the Bible with the way that they see Society so then they that's the way that they they go into their search like you know at this point they can't be right these parts of the Bible can't be right because they go against Society then you have the last way of searching and this last way what I feel is which is more pure and this was the journey that I went on is that I'm looking for a truth that is is going to reach that place inside of me that is that feels like it's the it's the actual truth and it and it sounds true and I can verify it to whatever degree I can and when I find it I'm willing to submit my whole entire life to that truth I'm willing to give up everything for that truth I don't care if it's this book that book this book I'm going to sit there and I'm a pounding and for me that was going 8 hours a day a lot of people don't have that so sort of you have to bring the conversation to them bring it out to them to make them start to think because these are genuine genuine people that I feel like God can use on his army he can use on his team so my question is how do we move forward how do we get more people to have this conversation yeah so right now this is such a spectacular topic that people are very interested u YouTube and other electronic programs have transformed my work as it used to be public speaking and also transform your work right in every way as an artist and everything I mean that there so many millions of people could watch but I I say this I I remember speaking in Fairfax Virginia Fairfax is kind of a a a bedroom community of America's capital people uh work in Washington but live in Fairfax and met a fellow who works for the federal government he's employed by the Secret Service of the United States and Jewish fellow belong to a congregation their F famous congregation a lot of lawmakers there and he works for the Secret Service not protecting the president or his family he protects the currency of the United States in essence what he does this was the first Mandate of the Secret Service he trains agents new recruits some bright young men and women um how to detect counterfeit currency and I thought that is so very interesting as you must have this amazing collection of coun con currency that that the that the service has already confiscated and you have the new agent like studying the different kinds of g money learning about it and he said Rabbi that's not the way we do it here the way we train agents how the tech count of a currency is we show them real money real currency I didn't know this real American currency is printed on a paper there's no other paper like it in the world and the US government ensures that there are shifting watermarks there are fine line Engravings there are Little Fibers in the paper Schmutz in the paper in George Washington shitel there's all kinds of don't ask what's going on these agents learn everything there is to know about real money why because you take an agent with that sort of training and you dare put a counterfeit in their hands they will know it immediately this is what I'm saying to you my dear brothers and sisters am I saying to you that in order for you to that we suddenly everybody should we should start at every Yesa and every place we should start learning Matthew Bahar we should know the entire the entire Book of Luke bed if you do the whole the Apostles of the Epistles of the Apostles that listen and I say this to you the learn T the Torah of Moses and the prophet of the Hebrew Bible all you Christians you believe the Hebrew Bible is the word of God and let that take you wherever it can if you know the Hebrew Bible if you understand the Jewish scriptures in its original then when anyone tries to put a count in your hands you will know it immediately and my prayer is with you the viewer that you would consider this pray to Hashem for guidance go to tanak not I prayed and the Lord laid it on my heart everyone's getting laid it on their own personal that's not relevant it's not your personal revelation because with you're laying it on the heart you know harrisan can walk in the door and what are you going to do shave your head up and move to India forget that go to the T to the holy prophets of Israel and that will take you to the god of Israel that's amazing Rabbi amazing we could go on and on and on and on I appreciate you so much making time for this and uh and giving me the opportunity to ask you all my questions and and I we got like I said this is the beginning of many and should give you br on all of your work you should be success ful uh Beyond and Beyond the whole you it should turn into a whole station and a whole building and a highrise of uh of of of you know your successes bem and many yid and Jews will find theel back home and all those righteous G that are there that are trapped in that place that really want to find their their place amongst the god of Abraham Isaac and Jacob will be able to do so bat before the coming coming home thank you bless you and continue to guide you thank you amen thank you so much [Music]