Should I End My Abusive Marriage? What Every Abused Spouse Must Know by Rabbi YY Jacobson

So let me begin by a few good disclaimers. Disclaimer number one, I am not a social worker. I am not a trained therapist, psychologist, or psychiatrist, or marriage counselor, or even a basic Halakhic authority who paskens on marriages or divorces and so forth. So why am I speaking tonight? I should be quiet. That may be a good idea. Sometimes people say that. But the reason is two reasons I'm speaking. I was invited to speak. That's one reason. Number two, probably the reason I was invited is I have the privilege of visiting communities the world over. And over the years I've heard many personal stories from many couples, from many women, from many men, from men and women together, from children, from parents. Um, concerning marriage, concerning abuse, concerning divorce, concerning various situations. And I've had the privilege to listen to many of these stories. Some of them quite heart-wrenching, as you can imagine. Some of them with sad endings and some of them with happy endings. And I've also had the privilege of being a student of Torah for many years and teaching Yiddishkeit and Hashkafah, especially in areas of relationships. So I'm going to speak from that perspective. And I I must say this very clearly. When it comes to marriage, every situation is very individual. Every situation needs to be dealt with on individual basis. So the comments and observations and insights and responses you'll be hearing is a perspective that I'm giving you from my own knowledge, awareness, and experience, which as every human being is limited, especially that I'm not a as I said, I'm not a trained professional in this area. And I must emphasize that. Sometimes we deal with, like many situations that come to my door, I'll right away say, "This is not something I can deal with. You have to speak to top experts." And I will prefer them to top experts that I know, or if they they could find out who those are. So I'll just say that this is a very important introduction that, you know, the situations that are very serious, and even if they're not very serious, they're individualistic, and one has to know that there's no one shoe and one size that fits all. And there's very different qualifications and different situations, and everybody's in a different stage, and there's questions with families and kids and mental status and so on and so forth. So obviously, all of that always has to be taken into consideration. Okay, now let's begin with the actual discussions. So a few questions came in to me already before the telephone conference, and therefore I'm going to read some of these questions because in my talk, in my address, with God's help, I want to address these questions and some of the questions, and then as our moderator said, at the end we can take more questions and hope to address them as well. So I'm going to go to I'm going to go to a few questions that came in today. I'm not going to answer them individually. I'm just going to discuss things that I hope will address these questions as well. But I just want to read the questions and we'll also get a flavor about at least what's on the minds of some people who are listening. Um, one woman writes, she says, "I have been made guilty for many, many years by people who quoted statements like, 'If you get divorced, the altar in the holy temple, the mizbeach, starts crying.' They also told me that it's depends on the woman to create the atmosphere in the home. It's the woman who is the decisive factor in the home. This has kept me chained in my marriage for years, chained in a very abusive relationship. She continues, 'We hear people tell us always that God gives only what we can handle, and we have to accept what Hashem has given us, and that the difficulties in life are God's way of making us better people, etc. When do we say then that, "No, this is not what I can handle, and I have to get out of it"? When do we say it's over the line and it's okay to start to look at divorce because it's an abusive marriage?' Another note by in somebody else. I had an old classmate who was married to an abusive person. She is now divorced. She is so excited about her about her divorce and the fact that she finally extricated herself from the guilt of getting divorced after 23 years of abuse in marriage. She only divorced though after her husband decided he doesn't want to be Torah observant anymore. He wants to abandon the path of Judaism, and that's what allowed her to end the 23 years of divorce. What is your opinion about that? Um, another question. I am afraid that such a call in Rabbi Jacobson's lecture is going to convince people that divorce is an option. Shouldn't we be encouraging people to work through their marriage challenges? Does it make sense to make a conference call when to end an abusive marriage, the Torah Hashkafah in ending an abusive marriage? Shouldn't the message be that the Torah Hashkafah is to work through the marriage? And I am afraid of this type of conference call where it's leading and what the lecturer is going to share. Okay, I don't know who wrote these letters, but they weren't signed. But whoever wrote this, thank you very much for your concern, and I will address it. Another another few questions here that I'm going to write now that I want to read to you. Okay, does addiction fall Rabbi Jacobson, does addiction fall under abusive marriage? Living with someone who is an addict. He's not directly abusive to me, but he's just an addict. From substance abuse to behavioral addictions. Sometimes when confronted with evidence, the one suffering from the disease of addiction promises to change. If they do, they do, but very often they don't. What is the role of the ezer k'negdo, of the woman or of the man? Does he need to stay on the roller coaster? Does she need to stay on the roller coaster? Of course, the one suffering with the disease pins their recovery on the spouse, and there's no way that their spouse can cure them. What is this? What is the role of a spouse in addiction? Next question, another person. Rabbi Jacobson, "I'm leaving an abusive marriage after many, many years with many children. I am still being told by some very observant and Chassidic Jews that it's not what the Torah wants. It's not what Hashem wants. They're telling me that if I would ask the Lubavitcher Rebbe, he would say that it's not the right thing. Could you please address the following? Number one, is it true that the Torah's point of view is that you have to wait to divorce until all children are married? Is this also the view of the Rebbe? Is this what he held? Number two, is divorce against Yiddishkeit? I grew up and I'm a loyal Chassid of the Lubavitcher Rebbe. Is this against his view? What if there's abuse? Does he still hold you shouldn't get divorced? Number three, an abusive spouse remains the same even after divorce. How is a woman supposed to support so many children on her own when the spouse is not helping financially? So divorce is just continuate continuing the abuse on some level. Another letter. As a survivor of decades of long abusive marriages, I certainly remember being told that the mizbeach, the altar, cries when a marriage ends. I was told by people to go back to the monster and to make it work. The victim was blamed. I was told that it's in my potential to create positive energy and to tolerate things and not to respond and to allow things to work themselves out. When my divorce became public, a very learned woman called me and quoted to me the rest of the verse after discussing the altar being being Oh, the altar crying. It was amazing to me because everyone speaks about the mizbeach crying and nobody quotes the entire verse that the Talmud brings. I'm really curious. Is this really what it says? Could you shed light on the rest of the verse? Can you tell it to the crowd? I think if you do, and it's true, she wasn't just making me feel good, it would be helpful for so many spouses trapped in Gehennom, which means purgatory or hell, to hear this. And for the many rabbis who are unschooled about abuse to learn it. God bless you, Rabbi Jacobson. I'm going to read one more question, and then I'm going to start responding. If a spouse claims abuse and seeks divorce, why wouldn't the altar cry if no rabbi, counselor, rebbetzin, family member, or friend even consider the perspectives, the story, the feelings of another spouse? Isn't it a mistake to just support every single claim and cry? Okay. Painful questions, my friends. Painful questions. I'm sure there's many other questions, and perhaps they'll come in soon and we'll read more of them, but I think we have enough enough to address. So let me begin. I'm going to make a few insights, a few comments, and share with you what I believe is to be a genuine Torah and a genuine Jewish perspective in a respectful and sensitive way. Point number one, I want to say this. It is very unfair and unjust to put women or men, and I'm going to say women or men, I don't mean women only or men only. I know that there are different ex- different stories and different marriages. Who is the abuser? So, I say women or men, but I don't mean to point a finger on anybody, of course. Just remember that. It is extremely unfair to come to a woman suffering from terrible abuse and she's been through the wringer for 5 years, 10 years, 15 years, 23 years, and now increase her guilt, her frustration, her pain, her anguish, and her misery by making her feel that her thoughts to leave the marriage are against God, against Torah, against the Jewish people, against Hashem, against Yiddishkeit. That is simply not true. And let me make it very clear. We try to do anything we can to help a marriage remain wholesome and functional and happy. Divorce is not an option that we embrace initially. It's not like, "Oh, the marriage is not working out. Let's get divorced." Yiddishkeit is obviously opposed to creating a culture of divorce. Culture of divorce means uh you don't like your job, you get a new job. You don't like your suit, you take off your suit, you put on a new suit. You You don't like your dress, throw it out, give it away, get put on a new dress. Divorce is not that way. Divorce is an amputation. It's a very serious thing. On the other hand, sometimes amputations save lives. And a doctor, a physician, or a patient who says, "I will not cut off my toe. I will not cut off this part of my body because I believe in a wholesome body." What you're doing is you're allowing the disease and the infection to kill the entire body. When somebody is experiencing real abuse in a marriage and things are not being fixed, I'm going to soon discuss how to fix things. But they're not being fixed. He doesn't want she doesn't want, he's not complying, she's not complying, there's a violence, there is serious mental illness that is not being addressed, is not being acknowledged. The treatments are not Whatever the situation is, the spouse is suffering and their children are suffering. At that moment, the same Torah that tells us the value of a marriage, the same God who says that when a husband and a wife merit to live peacefully, the Shechinah of the divine presence presence among them, the same God says that sometimes you have to get divorced. Is it sad? Yes. Is it painful? Yes. Do we throw a party when we get divorced? No. Is it a sad experience? Of course it's a sad experience. We would have preferred that the marriage would have been happy and wholesome because divorce is always painful. But does it mean that it's wrong? Absolutely not. It's immoral? Absolutely not. Sometimes it's the most moral thing you can do for yourself and you do for your children. I know many, many couples where there was very serious abuse in the house and as a result of the divorce, the spouse and the children were saved from years of untold agony and untold misery. But this should not be decided at the spur of a moment. It should not be decided impulsively. It should not be decided by somebody who has agendas. You need to have very sound advice from top, top experts in the field. And I'm going to say now a few things and I'll say them bluntly. All people who are dealing with abuse in their marriages, often you will get stupid advice from people who are clueless. And you have to learn how not to take all advice seriously. People who are not trained in this, people who are not empathetic, people who don't know what you're going through, they could sit in an ivory tower and give you beautiful, blissful advice about being a saint. The rebbe said this, this rebbe said that, this tzaddik said that, the Torah said that. Please. You need to speak to people who are real experts in the fields that you're dealing with and in the struggles you're dealing with. A lot of people are writing about uh about borderline personality disorder. So, a man wrote to me today. He wrote to me an email today. He saw about this conference call. He was married for many years, had a big family, a lot of children, and he blamed himself. He's a very, very nice and soft person, I know him. He blamed himself for the rage in the house, for the unpredictability in the house, for the hell that was created in the house, until he came across that famous work, the no more work no more walking on eggshells, about about borderline personality disorder, and suddenly the light opened up. He realized the boundaries. He realized what he's doing wrong, what he's doing right. He realized how he shouldn't blame himself, and he literally says today, "I saved my seven children from literal mental and emotional death." On the other hand, I know another fellow, also very sweet, sweet fellow, got married. The night of the wedding, they came home and his wife, his new wife, was busy on the phone texting and emailing friends. He said, "It's the night of It's the night It's so sad. It's the night of the wedding. No, you're being abusive." The next 4 years, they had two or three kids, and he suffered suffered terribly, but he went out of his way to accommodate his wife, who was later diagnosed with having borderline personality by a top mental professional, but he still would not leave for the sake of his children. And his parents told me, they looked at their son and he was rotting away emotionally from day to day to the point he would kill himself, which he told me later he would have from the pain. And they went in one night and they swept him out of the house, and they pretty much saved his life. They saved his life. Now, let's go the other way around. There are women I know who are in very abusive relationships. It's impossible. If your husband is ready to go for help, if the couple is ready to go for help, that's wonderful, that's awesome. Then we always have to be there. We try not to be judgmental. We try always to be supportive of people's struggles. But that's only if your husband or your wife is acknowledging that they have a struggle, that they have a demon, and they're ready to deal with it. And yes, we all fall. We all fail. That's not called living in an abusive marriage. But when you're dealing in a situation where you're walking on eggshells your whole life, every single night or every other night or constantly, there's tremendous fear and trepidation. This is a very serious situation. You can't ignore it and tell a woman, "Just Just end the marriage. The atmosphere depends on you. Don't let him misbehave. Cry." That's abusive. That's increasing their abuse. And if people speak to you that way without understanding and appreciating what you're going through, these are not the people you should be getting advice from. You have to speak to people. It's very important to get objective feedback. But you need feedback from rabbis who are very empathetic in the plight of people who are in abusive relationships. If they don't have experience with it, it's not their fault, but they have no experience with it. And you need top professionals and experts who can diagnose, who can see through a situation, who will not be manipulated by somebody saying, "My wife is crazy. She's obnoxious. She has incessant demands. She drives me crazy." Or conversely, "My husband is this. My husband is that." People who will see through and call a spade a spade. So, don't just get advice from anybody out there who just, you know, nicely tells you things. You need people who are will really be here for you. Which now brings us to another point, and that is it is a slander. It's a disgrace that so many people in our community cover up for abusers. They befriend them. They make believe everything is beautiful. When a woman is suffering in a miserable abuse, it should be the pain of the entire Jewish people. And let me go back to that that piece of Talmud that's often quoted, but really misquoted. I just want to look it up. I could quote it exactly the way it is. Okay. The Talmud is Everybody knows what it what it actually says. Cuz people love quoting things without sources. The Talmud says it speaks about the man. Somebody who divorces his first wife even the altar, the mizbeach, cries for him. And then the Gemara in tractate Gittin page 90b, you can look it up, quotes the verse, it's from the prophet Malachi chapter 2 verse 13 and verse 14. Malachi perek bet pasuk yud gimmel pasuk yud daled. I'm going to read the pasuk. And then I'm going to translate. V'zos sainus tasu kasois dim'as mizbach Hashem ki vanokah. May einai chin'as hamencha milakachas ratzon meiyadchem? V'amartem al mah? Al ki Hashem heid bein chovein eishes neurav asher atah bagadeta vah. V'hi chavertecha v'eishes brisecha. Wow. Hashem says through the prophet, "You have caused the altar to cry. You have caused the mizbeach to cry. And you'll ask, why? Why is the mizbeach crying? The answer is because Hashem is testifying that you have betrayed the woman of your youth. She is your friend. She is the wife of your covenant. But you have betrayed her. And that's why the mizbeach is crying. In fact, the Metzudas Dovid, the great Tanakh biblical commentator, says on this pasuk that the women were crying because of their shame, their albon, their abuse and lack of dignity. And when the women start crying, the mizbeach starts crying. Rashi writes over there that the women told the women tell the mizbeach and they say, "What iniquity has our husband found in us to treat us in such a derogatory fashion? What is it?" And hence the mizbeach starts crying. So all the great sages who like to quote this uh verse and this statement in the Talmud against the women who are suffering are first of all clueless. They're clueless. The whole point The whole point of the Gemara and the whole point of this verse in Malachi is that some women are hurt and abused so badly, they cry. And therefore the mizbeach starts crying. And sadly, sometimes the last option It's the last option, but sometimes it's the only the only option. And now I'm going to discuss another few points here that I think are very important. When people start saying, "Every situation you're in comes from Hashem. And that means you can handle it and you can work it through and you can have a beautiful marriage." It's true. Every situation we're in comes from Hashem. But what is the calling of that situation? I don't know. I don't know what's the calling of that situation. Maybe Hashem sometimes puts somebody in a situation and the objective is to get out of it. Sometimes you're in a situation and it's a challenge and the challenge is that I have to learn something from getting out of the situation. How do How does anybody know that God wants me to stay in an abusive situation? I think it's very cruel to say that. I would always encourage everybody to try to do what they want, but who is the prophet that starts quoting God, what God wants, what he doesn't How do you know? If God wants everybody to stay in abusive marriages, why are there verses in parshas Ki Seitzei that legislate divorce? Why is there a whole tractate in Talmud Gittin that legislates divorce? In a time when the Catholic Church forbade divorce, Judaism never forbade divorce. Never did. Why? Again, it's a sad option, but it's an option that's always there. It's not an option we hope for, it's not an option we pray for, it's not an option we anticipate. We get married, we hope and pray that it's a binyan ad ayad. And that has to be the conviction and that is what allows Jewish marriages to flourish and blossom. But we all understand that there are exceptions and those exceptions are also part of God's plan. So when somebody says, "If you're in a marriage, that means God wants you to stay here." No, it means God wants you to do whatever you can to try to work on the marriage, but if you're doing whatever you can and it's simply a dangerous, horrible situation for you, for your children and even for you, sometimes that means it's time to get out. And let me now talk a little bit about symptoms and nature of abuse. What does it mean you're in an abusive marriage? What does it mean? It does not mean that you get into arguments with your spouse. If so, almost every couple would be in an abusive relationship. Disagreements are normal, it's good, it's human beings. It does not even mean you get into a fight. It doesn't even mean that there is once in a while wrong behavior. We apologize, we say, "I'm sorry." Being in an abusive relationship means that there is endless endless fear, agony, misery in this relationship. There's no happiness in the house. You come home to misery. You return home to misery. You are in home with misery. It's just constant. Or even if it's not constant, but the fear is constant. There's a couple, the guy loses his temper and he throws dishes on his wife. He throws things at his kids. He breaks windows. So he goes to therapy. And he says, he tells the therapist, he says, "You know, it only happens once in 2 months. Once in 60 days, is that so bad? For 59 days I behave." His wife says, "Yeah, but for 59 days I live in trepidation and fear. When is going to be the moment that the dishes are going to be thrown on me and on the window and on my kids?" You're not supposed to live like that. And here I must say this emphatically. Everybody deserves to live a happy life. There is this idea that people are supposed to be miserable in life. That's not true. We are all supposed to We deserve to live happy, wholesome, meaningful, inspired, loving, zestful lives. Life is tough. Life has challenges. We always have to be able to excavate the beauty, the purity, the meaning, the depth, the opportunity and the holiness in every situation. What Torah calls, what is the divine calling in every situation? But that is to make us happy, to make us successful. You should not be living in a marriage where the atmosphere is not just tense, but always tense. Where there's just misery, there's no trust, there's endless blaming, there's verbal abuse, mental abuse, emotional abuse. If people are ready to go for help, that's awesome. If not, you have to consider the options. Now, there are women and men who say to themselves, "Divorce is messy." And divorce is messy. We have to remember that. Divorce is not easy. It's not like the guy is an abuser or the woman has serious problems. Let me just get divorced. We all understand. Sometimes it's a schlep of a schlep of a schlep. And it's very, very difficult. And if there's kids, even after the divorce, there's a relationship. So you always have to consider your pros and cons, but consider them objectively. Consider them from a place of strength, not from a place of weakness. Think what's the best thing for you today, tomorrow, next week, next month. You don't have to think about things always for the rest of your life. Talk with experts. Also know what's available for you. You have to know what's available for you. You have to know what's available for you legally, what's available for you socially, mentally, emotionally, spiritually. What's available for you? Just be informed. If there's a challenge in your marriage, get books about it. See what's happening. If there's a There's a mental illness, if there is another issue, there are great, great books that are written by top professionals. Educate yourself so people can't sell you the Brooklyn Bridge. Understand the symptoms. Know who to blame. Know who not to blame. Understand the boundaries. Stop walking on eggshells. Get yourself educated so that you could respond from a place of empowerment, not from a place of weakness. And generally speaking, we all deserve to have good homes, nice homes, beautiful homes. A word about divorce. If you're getting divorced, the worst thing that we do is that couples do is they they become such enemies and the children suffer terribly. I know a couple I know two couples who recently got divorced. One couple, both of them were mentioned. They had serious issues, but they were mentioned. They communicated civilly. They worked out their issues with a therapist civilly. They're amicable to each other. And for the kids, it is so under the circumstances I'm not glorifying it. Under the circumstances, it was an amazing transition to the best that it could be under the circumstances. And then I know another couple also got divorced with such hate and venom that the children became the missiles against each other. How tragic, how sad, how painful. Now, sometimes one spouse will choose the mean path of using the children against the other spouse. It's such such tragedy, especially when families and friends instead of encouraging a person to behave like a mensch, all they do is justify heinous behavior and cover up. Which brings me to another point I want to make. And that is don't always think about social pressure. Very often, you'll speak to your sister, to your brother, and what they're thinking about sadly is what it's going to look like if the family has a divorce. No, no, no, no, no. Listen to your own voice and don't get offended by what other people say if it's not what you really need and what you really want. Very often, when we surrender to social conformity, we abuse ourselves even more. It's enough the abuse that you have in your marriage. Don't allow yourself to abuse yourself. Don't start blaming yourself and killing yourself and listening to what everyone has to say and redefining your life and allowing yourself to get abused again because of ridiculous social pressure. Listen to your soul. You often in your gut know what is the right thing. Don't betray your gut. Don't betray your own emotions. Yes, our emotions can take us astray. That's why we need feedback. That's why we need to speak to experts. But don't betray it because it's very critical to listen to your own voice and be very true to what is best thing for you and your kids. Another very important thing. And that is I say this, it may be obvious, but I say it anyway. A spouse is in an abusive relationship, I tell you, you got to take care of yourself. You have to. It's enough you're going through the wringer in your marriage. You need to have moments of sanity and serenity. What do I mean? Eat well, exercise well, take walks, do things that nurture your body, your mind, and your soul. Maybe wake up 45 minutes before your kids and take a walk, meditate, garden, learn, swim, run, Pilates, this exercise, that exercise, massages, therapy, whatever works. You need to give yourself the strength that you need to deal with it. Don't become a shmata. For yourself, you're not allowed to be a shmata, and for your loved ones, you're not allowed to be a shmata. It's enough what you're going through. You have to have a place where you're healthy, where you're calm. You must nurture that space in you. It's critically important, especially when you're going through such difficulties. And don't say, "I don't have no time." Because that will give you much more time. It will give you a mind to think with and a heart to feel with so that you can evaluate your future from a place of power. Which brings me to my next point. Evaluate your future not from a place of weakness, but from a place of power. What do I mean by that? Don't make decisions when you're feeling incompetent and you're feeling like a horrible victim whom the whole world turned against. There's no such a thing. You may be in a very difficult situation. We know. We know. But you're not a victim of anybody. You may have a challenging past, but don't allow yourself to be defined as a carbon controlled completely by another person's life. You have to find out what legal powers you have. You have to find out what practical powers you have. You have to think through what is the best route for you to take. You have to think through what is ultimately the benefit of you and your family short-term and long-term and make a decisions of decision from a place of deep strength. Another thing. Don't get into ego struggles. He said, she said, I said, he said. What you want to do is it's more important for you to be happy than to be right. Think about your happiness and your kids' happiness. It's not about being right. It's about what will benefit everybody in the long run. There's an important thing now. I'm going to talk about addiction and mental illness. Is addiction called abuse? Of course, addiction is not called abuse. When somebody is an addict, they are suffering from a terrible disease. When they're suffering from a terrible disease like addiction, they can't be in a marriage. They can't be in a spouse. There's no relationship. There's no authenticity. Addiction is a very serious disease. A person who's in addiction must go for recovery. If they're not ready to go for recovery, they are very very emotionally and physically sick. It's a horrible marriage to be in. They need to take accountability. They need to go into recovery, and you cannot become an enabler. You cannot become an enabler. There's a very big difference between enabling somebody and empathizing with somebody. A lot of people say, "Oh, you have to empathize with the abuser. He or she is also going through hard times." There's no question that somebody who's abusive perhaps is going through majorly hard times, and maybe they were abused, and they have their own trauma. There's no question. And therefore, this is not about judging anybody. And I can even empathize with what you're going through, but I can't empathize with what you're going through at the expense of allowing myself to be destroyed by the name of empathy. And we make a mistake and we confuse empathy with enabling. You know the difference? I'll tell you the difference. Enabling somebody means you do what they want. Empathizing with somebody means you do for them what they need, even though they don't want it. Enabling somebody means, "Oh, they want this? Let me give it to them so they'll be quiet." Even though in the long term, it's destructive. Empathizing and helping somebody means I don't think about what they want. I think about what they need, even if in the short term, it's painful. Of course, when somebody has mental illness, there's so much empathy that's necessary. It's not their fault, and I'm talking about specially mental illness. It's not their fault. It may not be their fault. They may be absolute victims of a horrible horrible illness that they never chose, and as a result of that, they do very painful things. But here is the key issue. The key issue is are they ready to take accountability for their challenge and deal with it? And then I have to have my boundaries. I have to know what is their thing, what is my thing, where I could support, and where I cannot support, and have to take responsibility. Should you live with such a person? That's a very mature choice that you have to make. There are people who made that choice to stay. They are extraordinary heroes, but they did it because they loved their spouse, their spouse loved them, and they understood the pitfalls of mental illness, and the person took some responsibility and tried to help themselves. If there's absolute no accountability and you become an enabler, then it becomes a disaster. And in all of these cases, it's important to educate yourself about what your wife is going through, what your husband is going through, because if not, number one, you will blame yourself, and that's unnecessary. Number two, you will not be able to help them the way they need it. Number three, you will confuse their role and your role. Number four, it will be perpetuated by you not taking the necessary steps of what you need to do to protect yourself and your children in this situation. There's something else I want to address here. And that is the ugliness of divorce. Uh It was a woman who told me that she got divorced, and for Pesach, she was supposed to have the kids, and the last minute, he called her up, and he said he can't bring them, and he's going to have them for Pesach. This was an hour before Yom Tov. After she cleaned her house for weeks and prepared everything for the Seder. She didn't have the mood to do the Seder with other people. She was devastated. She did the Seder herself in her house. She asked me what type of Seder that was. Now, can you imagine what a person what a person goes through? I just imagine. Here's a woman who got divorced. This man decided to abuse her afterwards, the night of Pesach, by not letting her be with the kids after weeks. I have to tell you what it makes what it means to make Pesach. She prepares her house for Pesach. She had four kids. She had four kids. And the last minute, he refused to bring them. This is what people are going through. Now, I ask you, if you are going through this and people don't appreciate it, you're not speaking to the right people. How many people can understand this type of abuse? If you are lucky, thank God not to be in such a marriage or not have such a divorce, can you even appreciate what this woman is going through? If people are not being sensitive to what these abused victims are going through, they should be quiet and not give advice when they understand nothing about the blood shed, the rivers of tears, and the sense of hopelessness and despair that so many innocent women are going through, and sometimes so many innocent men are going through. Be sensitive. Be cautious. Be silent. Be attentive. And be there for these people. What the solution is, I don't always know what the solution is. It's not always a clear-cut path to stay, to leave, how to stay, how to leave. But stop preaching. Be empathetic. Be understanding. And know you can't always stay in the marriage. No, sometimes you got to leave the marriage because you're being chained in solitary confinement and tortured and abused. And it's not because we want to judge anybody, not because we want to get even with anybody. It's not about revenge, not about judgment. It's about what is the most meaningful thing you can do for yourself and your loved ones to get out of a hellish, dark situation. And the question is, what happens with the divorce? Sometimes it goes to court and it slips out for months and years with hundreds of thousands of dollars in expenses because people are trying to win instead of trying to make it work, they're trying to defeat the other person. How sad. And this is where friends and family have a responsibility to the best of their ability to kick in and say, "Come on, what are you doing? You're destroying yourself. You're wasting money, you're wasting time, you're wasting energy, you're making people miserable. For what? For when?" Work it out, even if you decided to get divorced. Work it out with arbitrators. Work it out perhaps with a good rabbi. Work it out with a professional therapist. Work it out. Fighting destroys everybody. It destroys the perpetrator, it destroys the victim. I wish this message could be heard by people. Stop torturing your spouse after you're getting divorced. Stop it. Let it go. Let everybody move on. I'm going to take a few more questions, if there are. Thank you, Rabbi Jacobson, for all so much there. These These are the questions that came in while you were speaking. One woman writes that this is coming that she feels that she she feels she feels that she should have left earlier. And now her children are angry with her for not leaving. Uh and someone also said similarly that she didn't leave. Now that she's she feels she's too old to leave, but she regrets that she didn't leave. Can you talk to that? Sure. Okay. Um Let's Let's Let's Let's talk about this woman who regrets that she didn't leave. She should have left. I'll tell you. You know, here is where I would introduce a teaching of the Baal Shem Tov. The Baal Shem Tov said that there's a very famous expression by our rabbis, "Resha'im melaim charatah." Which means um spiritually weak people are filled with regrets. So everybody ex- explains it, why they're filled with regrets. Because they do wrong things, they're spiritually weak, right? So when you keep on sinning, full of regrets. It's like I go on a diet and then I break my diet every other day, so I'm always regretting things. The Baal Shem Tov said it's something much deeper. He said, "Resha'im melaim charatah" means spiritually weak people are filled with regrets. It means that they always blame themselves for their decisions, and therefore they're always regretting what they did, and they don't realize that so many of our biggest decisions in life were directed by the divine. And this is a very important idea. If you're asking me before to get the divorce, what's the right thing, I tell you you have to figure it out, and there are ways to figure it out. But if you're asking me years afterwards and you're saying, "I'm living with regret that I didn't get divorced," I don't think there's room for that. First of all, you're not helping yourself. You're not helping your future. You're not helping your children. The attitude has to be I made a decision. I thought I was trying to do the best thing for me and my kids. I could look back, maybe I would have made a different decision, but this was the decision I made. But this was the decision I made. This is ultimately where God wanted me to be. It had benefits, it had minuses, it had advantages, it had disadvantages. And let me now look at my life and see what is the opportunity that I learned today from everything I have been through, and how can I continue growing from the experience? You know, maybe you have to stay married because your destiny is to open up an organization for women who are in an abusive marriages and you could advise them because all of the years of experience. Why don't you take your difficult experience and turn into a blessing for others? Maybe God wanted you to go through something so that you should be able to be of advice to people, maybe through groups, maybe through telephone calls, maybe through a website, maybe through a workshop, maybe through an organization. I don't know. And this is also what you have to explain to your children. Say, "Listen, you know, life is challenging and I'm sorry I may have made mistakes. We all make mistakes. But let's be here together and figure out about how to maximize our situation for ourselves and for others." As far as the woman who says it's too old for you to get divorced, I I'm I'm not in a position to tell any woman or man whether to get divorced or not to get divorced. All I can tell you is I don't think it can always be defined by age. Yeah, sometimes you say, "I'm too old, I'm already used to it." That may be a right attitude for you, but it may also be a wrong attitude. Very often you have to be able to look at life and say, "You know what? I am old, but I'm also young, and I want to create a beautiful future for myself. The years that God has allotted to me, I want them to be different. Is it practical for you? Does it make sense? Is the divorce going to create much more headache than than than peace of mind and serenity? I don't know. I don't know the details, I don't know the circumstances. I'm going to say this. If there's any woman or any man here online who feels that in any way I could be of help to you in terms of anything connected to these questions and dilemmas, feel free to email me privately. You don't have to sign your name. My email is yyjacobson @theyeshiva.net. yyjacobson j a c o b s o n @theyeshiva.net. You could write whatever you want and I will advise you to the best of my ability. But I would not make any time limit on anybody. It's really a very personal journey and the sky is the limit. How do loved ones do to help our family member go through this? He doesn't feel strong enough to deal with this. We have to What can we as family members do to help a relative who's going through a an abusive marriage? We simply have to be there for them. We have to protect them. We have to be there for them, and we can't judge them, and we can't put the blame on them, and we can't tell them just go home and be a good woman. Some- Sometimes he's a monster. Sometimes he's not. Sometimes we have to challenge our family member. Sometimes we have we have to really look at the situation, and we also need advice. Sometimes we have to challenge our family member and say, "You know what? You know, you also have a rough edge. Maybe you both got to work it out." You know, sometimes, let's not call it abuse. Sometimes there's terrible misunderstanding in marriages. I know many couples who are both wonderful people. Let me say this. He's a good guy, she's a good guy, but they're so different. They manage don't understand each other. They have what we call today different love languages, you know? Imagine your wife. Imagine uh your wife loves chocolate ice cream and you love vanilla ice cream, and you hate chocolate ice cream. You want to surprise your wife, so you bring her you bring her vanilla ice cream. The problem is she hates vanilla, she loves chocolate, but you hate chocolate. So you'll never bring her chocolate. So you're trying to be nice, and she thinks you're being self-centered and narcissistic. It's a stupid little example, but it's very common. We have different love languages, we have different attitudes and perspectives, and sometimes the woman is not getting what she needs in a marriage. Sometimes the man is not getting what they need in a marriage, and it's such a pity because if they would just understand each other's perspectives emotionally, the marriage could be so much better. For this, you need a top top professional who is really good. Not everybody is good. Some people are lousy. Some people are mommies lousy. Some therapists are clueless, they destroy marriages. Some experts don't know what they're doing. They call themselves experts. You need good people. You need good information to help you. And sometimes as family members, we have to direct them in that way. But sometimes we're dealing with an impossible situation. And then we have to be there for our relatives. We have to create a refuge. We have to be able They should be able to come to us for Shabbos. They should be able to come to us for the kids. I know a husband He doesn't allow his doesn't allow his It's not funny. It's cry He doesn't allow his wife to buy food. He'll cancel the credit card when she goes Thursday to buy food for Shabbos in order to torture her. I ask you. This is going on for 10 years. Maybe more. We have to be here for such a person. The person doesn't have food. She now has to go beg for a credit card working cuz he wouldn't give her cash cuz she doesn't work. She doesn't have cash. All these types of situations, you're dealing here with monstrous behavior. This is unforgivable cruel behavior. Your wife goes with a bunch of babies to a grocery store Thursday afternoon and you intentionally week after week cancel the credit card cuz you're upset at her. How cruel? How inhumane? How disgusting? How sensitive? How insensitive? And then they give him an aliyah Shabbos in shul. How disgusting? People should go over to him in shul and say, "You're a monster. This is unforgivable behavior." If we fight for justice, we fight for compassion. And family members have to aggressively protect, whether it's a woman or a man, from this dysfunctional behavior and this cruel behavior. It's not always cruel, but sometimes it's cruel. You have to protect them. You have to be there for them. And not allow a monster to get away with these things. And family members should not be these objective saints who always see things from two sides. Let me tell you something. Everything has two sides. But when somebody's treating his spouse in a cruel way, it's not about two sides. It's about cruel behavior. It's not about two sides. And you have to stand up to it. People have to stand up to it. Abusers are sometimes protected in our communities. And that's a shame to everybody. It's a shame on the community. It's a blood stain when they cover up abusers, they cover up molesters, they cover up rapists, they cover up perpetrators. They cover up these people. And as a result of that, they allow victims to suffer for years. Shame on all people who cover up these things. The next question was How can we our our sibling is the abuser. What can we do to help our sister-in-law? Could you repeat that? Our brother is the abuser. What can we do to help our sister-in-law? Okay. Our brother is the abuser. What can we do to help our sister-in-law? What we could do is we have to be cordial but firm with our brother. And say, "Listen, brother. You are blessed with a wonderful wife. And you're going to lose her and you're going to lose your future unless you get yourself together. You need serious serious help. And you need to be vulnerable and you need to strip all your garments and expose your skeletons and get the help you need. And then we will be here for you through thick and thin helping you in the process. That's step number one. Approach the abuser. Step number two. Approach the woman who's being abused and say, "Listen, we know who you are. We love you. We cherish you. We're so sorry this is the situation. We will be here for you and we will be here for your family." And we have to be there for her. We have to be here for her financially. We have to be there for her emotionally. We can't judge her. We can't ridicule her. We can't denigrate her. We need to do the right thing, which is to help her through this terrible terrible terrible ordeal. Hopefully he will come to his senses and get the help he needs and we could recreate this marriage. If he doesn't come to his senses, we simply have to be there for her. There's nothing like a woman who's being abused who knows that she has genuine support among the family, among friends on every level. She can escape. She can go there for Shabbos and Yom Tov. She can go there for Sunday. She can take the kids there. You know, sometimes these women also need some time for themselves. If you're a brother-in-law or sister-in-law, tell her Sunday afternoon, "Here, let me take your kids. I'm going to the park. I'm going for pizza. And you go you go relax. Go get yourself an iced coffee. Go do some exercise. Go to some therapy. Go do go do something enjoyable. Go to the library. Go Whatever it is. Whatever. Go to sleep. Go rest. Go away for 2 days. We have to be there for them because it's it's so difficult. You know, when you're raising a family, it's hard enough to raise a family. It's hard enough to support a family. It's hard enough to pay mortgages, tuitions, daily expenses, baruch Hashem for what everybody needs. And the one thing that we need in order to make it all worth it is that we come into our house. We have a spouse who is crazy about us. A spouse who loves us. A spouse who speaks to us. A spouse who sensitive to us. A spouse who wants to listen to us. A spouse who compliments us. A spouse who empowers us. A spouse who is there for us. A spouse who appreciates us. And conversely, that we can do this for them even if we have disagreements sometimes. When that's missing and not only it's missing, it's the opposite. The stress is so difficult. It's so painful. And this is where family members, when they realize this, if they could give such a woman or such a man some time to breathe themselves, it's a very very big thing you can do for them. Beyond even what you imagine. Some of these other questions that came in are are very specific. I think too specific for and maybe they could send it to you directly. Can you just share your email again so they can see it directly? I don't mind if you share these questions unless you don't want them, but I'm fine. But they can email them to me. My email address is y y Jacobson at theyeshiva.net. I'll spell it. y y j a c o b s o n. That's Jacobson. at theyeshiva t h e yeshiva y e s h i v a dot net. y y Jacobson at theyeshiva.net. You can email whatever you wish. It could be anonymous or not. As private as you want. And I will try to help you or to refer you to the help that I think can work best for you with God's grace. Okay, this kind of question just came in. I'm going to summarize it. Basically, the school was not sensitive to the to the children of such a situation. How can we make the school sensitive to these kinds of situations? Yes. It's important to meet with the principal of the school who is in charge over these kids and with the teachers. All the teachers of this child, all the principals of this child. In other words, whoever is in charge of this child in the school. And they must be explained the situation. I don't know if the meeting should be only with the husband or the wife who is dealing with the abuse. Perhaps it could be a grandparent, an uncle, an aunt, a brother-in-law, a close friend, somebody who is a little bit outside who can who can just speak because it's very hard for for somebody in abuse, you know, they they told their story a thousand times and they're asked questions and sometimes they And and they have to speak to them very clearly. And you have to see if the principals and the teachers are empathetic to the experience. If they're clueless, in other words, if they really don't get it, it's a pity. It's a shame. It's horrible. And then it may be it may it may not be able to change because if the people on the top really don't get it, at least you're aware of it. At least you could say, you know what, you guys are clueless. But they may even understand what's going on. And if they can understand, they can perhaps be extremely extremely sensitive. Let me tell you a little story that clarifies this. There was a girl in school. She was not doing homework. Every night she was not doing homework. And uh So they expelled her once and twice and three times. And then the principal expelled her cuz she's not doing homework. Somebody called the principal. A rabbi I know. He's very special man. He said, "Do you know that this girl's parents just got divorced a few months ago?" He says, "I know. But what does that have to do with homework?" And he said these words, such wise words. He said, "How do you call yourself an educator? This girl is supposed to do homework. In order to do homework, you have to have a home where you do work. She has no home. This girl has no place to call home. Her father has problems. He didn't want to take them in. Her mother has problems. She's in the aunt's house. She has no home. She has no room she can call her own. She has no bed she can call her own. She has no corner she can call her own. Her life is in anarchy, in disarray emotionally and physically. She has no home. So now you're going to demand homework for her? What, she comes home 5:30 to a hug of an embracing mother and she sits down and plays with her dolls and her pillows and her friends and calls her friends and and whatever and then does her homework while they're giggling, and and mommy says, "Supper It's is ready. Supper is ready. Supper is ready. Supper is ready. Supper is ready. Supper is ready. I made the salad you like without peppers." That's the situation. She never saw salad in months. Nobody told her dinner is ready. She has to search for her dinner. She has no telephone to call. She has no couch to sit on. She has no pillow to sit on. Now you're expelling her for homework? Come on. How are you being so clueless? So the person says, "I don't want Listen to this. We can't lower her standards cuz it's going to make her feel like a victim." I give up. How people can say such stupid things. It sounds so nice, right? We want to empower this girl. We don't want to make her feel like a like a divorce like a girl from divorced parents, like a never case. So therefore you're going to expel her from school cuz you want to empower her, right? So she doesn't have a father. She doesn't have a mother. She doesn't have a house. And now she doesn't have any friends. That's how you're going to empower the girl. Brilliant wisdom, such empathy. What stupidity. How how ridiculous can you be? You want to empower the girl, that's awesome. You don't want to be the victim, but for this you have to build her up. You have to give her hope. You have to give her light. You have to give her space. You have to give her love. You have to be You have to become closer to You don't fiddle her out of school. You try to find ways that she could be in an environment where homework could come easily. So this is where people have to be educated. And it's important to speak to these people in the school and explain to them what's going on. And I told you you need somebody else there at the meeting. If they're completely clueless, maybe you have to take her out. I don't know what the answer is. But hopefully at least many of them will be sensitive. Thank you. Can you talk about separation? Have you seen them to be successful in bringing the marriage back together and preventing divorce? Is separation a successful method? Separation sometimes is a very good um is a very good wake-up call. Let's call it that way. Does it always solve the situation? Of course not. Sometimes it's necessary for the woman to be able to breathe, for the man to be able to breathe. Um I know of a particular couple, you know, uh they have a very very difficult marriage. Uh He has his challenges and she has her challenges. Uh she loses her temper constantly. She screams and hollers and shouts and and he's he has his challenges and and and they separated for 4 months and she said it was the best 4 months of her life and he said it was the best 4 months of his life. Then they got together afterwards and they started to fight again. So you know separation should work, could work if there's a if there's a plan, if there's a constructive plan. Just to separate without no goal, you have to understand what what is it for? What's the objective? Is the objective as a wake-up call? The husband should start missing his wife. That sometimes could work or the other way around. Is separation everybody who just wants space from each other? They should be able to think through their lives and consult people. That's also an option. So yes, again, in every individual case it's to be judged if this is what's necessary. In other words, you don't want to end the marriage cuz you think there may be hope. On the other hand it's intolerable right now, so you want to take time to separate. That could make sense. It's always good though to get an advice of a top top expert in the particular field or challenge you're dealing with. There are great experts when it comes to personality disorder. Great experts when it comes to substance abuse addiction. Great experts when it comes to depression, anxiety, mental illness um anger and all these types of things. And you know, they could give but it's very important to get top experts, not mediocre uh ignorant people who love giving advice and know nothing and especially they know nothing about experience uh on the ground. Thank you. What about when a husband is a serial cheater? Is that considered abuse? And how should a woman deal with that? A serial cheater on his wife or a serial cheater when it comes to finances? Hard to say, but let's just assume on his wife. If he's a serial cheater on Well, it's very different. Both are difficult situations. If he's a serial cheater finances, I'll talk about that. That's not an easy situation. It means he's a thief. It's not easy to live live It's not easy to live with a thief. You have to see how he's treating his wife. I mean, some thieves treat their wives like queens, you know, like the mafia. You know, they kill at night, but they treat their wives straight with a lot of dignity. It's still very very difficult to live with and you may have to find ways how to influence your husband, but again, you have to do it very very wisely because very often when women try to influence their husbands or conversely it backfires. So that's one situation. If your husband is continuously if the husband is continuously cheating on a wife that's already unacceptable. That's a very very difficult thing to deal with. That's abuse. That's betrayal. If he's cheating on his wife um it's betrayal. The marriage could be healed but there has to be accountability. Uh there's a lovely book called emotional infidelity. Basically the husband is looking for something that he's not getting in his marriage or the other way around. Sometimes the woman is looking for something she's not getting in the marriage. And they have to they need a lot of help in addressing the void. What is the void that he has and that is causing him to run to other people. If he's ready to take responsibility, if he's ready to be accountable if he's ready to look his own skeletons in the eyes and to be able to start a new life with loyalty to his wife then they can have a beautiful marriage. If not, if this person is just an addict to other women and if he's just lying and cheating and it's it's just an ongoing thing with absolutely no accountability, with no with no remorse, with no issues, then uh that's that's a very very that's a very difficult marriage to maintain. And this will be our final question. Uh should information about an abuser be shared after divorce to prevent a future spouse from being hurt? Could you repeat that, please? Should information about an abuser be shared after the divorce to prevent a future spouse from being hurt? Um I think it's important I think two things. To share information in order to take revenge or to gossip is a big big mistake. Especially if there's children because it's their father or their mother. And do you really want your children to hear very bad things about their father from from their mother? So we have to be careful with that. Uh number one. Number two. If there is for example a woman who wants to marry him and she calls his ex I think it's important to define the challenges that the woman endured. I don't think it should be in a vengeful way, in an angry way, with an intent to destroy him. I think it should just be objective information. I think that would be important. I mean, if it was my daughter or my sister or my loved one getting into a marriage I would want them to know the facts about this man. And you know what? You never know. Sometimes the second wife deals with these things in a different way. You know, maybe she had a father like this. Who knows? But I so it shouldn't be with anger and vengeance, you know, I'm going to destroy this this lowlife, but I think we have to share objective facts. Not getting into the details of our own emotions about it. I don't think that's their business. I think just the objective the objective facts, you know? He may be this. He may be that. He may have an Whatever it is, I don't think is I don't think should be should be communicated. I think it's only fair. The second woman should not be deceived. Thank you. You shared so much. Uh very enlightening. Uh this has been recorded, so if anyone wants to listen to it again, slowly take it in and this uh you definitely check out the website ajas.org/path-events. We also have several other resources for domestic abuse specifically, for the well of children and the domestic abuse. Um about what you can do for loved ones and all kinds of information as far as that. So you can check that out at ajas.org/resources. So once again, thank you, Rabbi Jacobson for really shedding a lot of light on a lot of important topics and for stressing the importance of empathy and and care for those who are suffering due to emotional and abusive relationships. So thank you very very much, Rabbi Jacobson. You're very welcome. Thank you very much. Hatslocha to all. Bye-bye.