The Jewish Story: 3 Things which Divide the Stories of American and Israeli Jews

it was impossible to get a conversation going said Yogi Berra everybody was talking too much now at the risk of being guilty as charged I've got a lot to say today cuz I'm Rob Mike Boyer and this is the Jewish story interlude for American and Israeli Jewry ever speaking the same language there is a lot of talk about the American Israeli Jewish divide these days in the press and the relationship metaphors have actually gotten a bit childish in my eyes it's not somewhat nauseating I'm not so into you we're headed for a breakup and I haven't heard it yet but the next will surely be the ever-popular it's not you it's me so I'm gonna throw my hat into the ring with this question because it's a relationship but I obviously have quite a personal stake in and I have a deep-seated Emunah that we just need to hold the Jews together and finally it's interesting to me to trace the historical arc that brought these two pieces of Ami's rail to the opposite sides of the planet and yet makes them together the vast majority of the Jews of our day and the last two seasons have gone a long way in particular season two toward laying the groundwork for understanding the basics of how things came about meaning aside from the individual circumstance and the great will of God that the Jews survived at all number one what moved each group to leave home in the first place and that one I feeling like kishkas because as you've heard me say before my grandfather was one of the few that jumped ship from Europe in 1937 I always want to know what is it that differentiates those that are able to uproot themselves and move on so that's one number two why did some go east and some go west there are certainly reasons that people headed for the Golden Medina in America and others headed out for the Middle East in number three what did the process look like as each of these two groups began to coalesce into a distinct identity and it's that third one the process of identity formation that I really want to focus on moving forward into season 3 but before we do we need to put the pieces that we already have in place and I want to do so today by asking a simple question did Israeli and American Jews ever really speak a common language are we looking at a breakup are we looking at two very divergent groups so I want to do that by considering three elements number one is the different narrative arcs described by Israeli and American jury number two the very different visions of redemption that are embodied within those communities and number three the very problem of language so let's start with the narrative arc because certainly American and Israeli jury have different and maybe even conflicting stories about themselves now I haven't really done justice to American jury I know that I've made some promises season three will actually give more but just to touch it America's roots are Sephardic go back to season 2 episode 5 to learn about the port Jews if you want to understand how that happened but anyone who's been up their own Island and seen the Touro synagogue or knows a bit of the backstory about the Jewish roots in New York City at least has that idea nevertheless and despite the fact that everyone's experience is their own the Jewish story in America becomes pretty much Ashkan normative as my students would say for American Jewish culture going forward from the 19th century first the German Jews and then the masses of Eastern European Jews in the later 19th century will be the Jews in most American media and public representation and their story will overwhelmingly be an immigrant story at least in the beginning and therefore its concerns economic survival cultural struggles between tradition and assimilation the critical process of communal and political organization and on top of that the generation of whole cost survivors are gonna set a powerful stamp over those previous hundred years of development of the immigrant narrative by a reawakening the refugee element at a time when the Jews themselves were just really starting to Americanize that's gonna be a difficult piece of the story to be continued suffice it to say for now that on top of the immigrant story you get 1948 and that will tremendously complicate that immigrant story us jury is going to experience the birth of the State of Israel with a mix of joy pride guilt and fear they will spend quite a bit of time unpacking in season three that's one side of the narrative arc the immigrants story and the Israeli side of 1948 is hardly any simpler I did do justice in season two I think to the historical arc that carried the people who are now citizens of this new state to their location so I'm not going to recapitulate what I'll say is that the Israeli holds up the story of the Pioneer over against the American immigrant story and that's true despite the fact that it's obvious that Israel as much an immigrant nation as America and that the actual pioneering element that Israeli decided was always a small minority even at its height the kyboots population will peak out around seven and a half percent in 1950 when State Building was at its greatest pace nevertheless the story at this stage belongs to the pioneering hero generation that second Ali a romantic ideal of a leaf note bun note to build and be rebuilt is the driving force and it's only going to strengthen going forward into season three be it in the internal Israeli discourse or in the young States developing international image it'll shatter eventually but for now just picture ben-gurion standing up to the world with this open collar shirt and loose cotton pants fearless free and strong and that image of the indomitable kyboots Nick that dropped the rifle instantly upon ceasefire and snatched the hoe to build the land that's what we're speaking about and they'll be plenty to complicate that narrative as we speak it out in season three don't worry the very gritty immigrant story that just lies underneath the pioneers pale and which is so bound up with the process of the birth of the state must be told in full but whether it's how Israelis receive the Jews of the Arab world or how they absorb the real of the Holocaust and its survivors that's our story going forward right now there's an immigration story on both sides of the Atlantic and the Pioneer does not by definition conflict with the immigrant however the story in the Land of Israel is more than the Pioneer story it's also that classic Zionist story of national rebirth now we're not gonna review all Zionists thought in case we were worried that we were but remember that no matter how it was conceived almost all of the visions of rebirth were bound up with this notion of schlock egala the negation of exile that in order to really come to be to be a people in our land in order for the new Jew to be born everything from the exilic past must go and this makes me a little nervous Lahav dill but the ongoing existence of an independent American Jewry one that doesn't face imminent destruction but is rather a thriving competitor for what it means to be a Jew poses a philosophical question to Zionism that's strikingly similar to the question posed by the ongoing existence of the Jews to early Christianity what do I mean well you'll recall I hope this notion of replacement theology the idea in the early church that God had rejected the Jews and chosen the church and therefore that spiritual Israel meaning Christianity had replaced Cornel Israel meaning the historic Jewish people and that may or may not appeal as a theoretical contract but the biggest challenge to it was of course the ongoing persistent stubborn life of the Jews and the church might have train-wrecked around that theological question if it weren't for Augustine of Hippo who saved the day in the fourth century with his theology that could fit the Jews into an acceptable Christian narrative right it's what he called the witness doctrine or I've called the suffering remnant that when Auguste and looked at the sallman 5912 which says slay them not less my people forget scatter them with your might he said no we don't need to destroy the Jews we need to actually keep them alive so that people remember not only the origin of the scriptures that are so important to Christian theology but also what happens when you refuse salvation so they will be scattered amongst the nations of the world and as I said a Hopf deal a thousand hub darling the Zionists and now Israeli narrative are going to have to find some theological theoretical philosophical model of national rebirth that can incorporate the independent American existence and that's not going to be simple we'll talk more for now we're just asking the question did Israeli and American Jews ever speak a common language and our first piece is these divergent narrative arcs u.s. Jewry is telling an immigrant's tale by and large Israeli jury is living the dream of pioneering and national rebirth and there are definitely elements within these narratives that unite and those that divide but it's unquestionable we've learned to tell our stories in very different ways so in the epilogue of season two I made the assertion that you cannot understand Jewish history without contemplating the Messiah if that's true about the past how much more so the Jewish future I don't think most Jews would admit it or would even be aware of it I see American and Israeli Jewry / separate visions of redemption at least in their majority narratives and I gave a taste back in the epilogue of how complex the question of what we even mean when we speak about messianic Redemption really is right now I'm gonna stay out of the classic religious conceptions which themselves are far from monolithic I want to consider the somewhat competing secular redemptive visions that animated us and Israeli jury in the late 20th century now let's just remember in world history america is the land where secular progressive vision found its greatest manifestation and in general and that great ideology of the modern era actually has its roots in on israel we were after all historically the ones who brought the idea of a beginning and an end and therefore a linear and direct analogy at the time and Christianity adopted it from Jewish culture and infused greco-roman culture with this hope for redemption and then when Western culture secularized the Christian structure was stripped away and they were left with this notion of progress in America is the land of progress of the 20th century so the rise of a secular American Jewish culture in general necessitated a translation of all Jewish values into that progressive languages what Nietzsche calls transvaluation here is an example it's a workman's circle and Shaam alayhim Institute and which names say it all joint statement from the 1930s that declared there are three models of relationships man to God man to man and man to self and they went on and said only the first is exclusively the realm of those who believe in a Supreme Being the other two are the concern of all thinking people which means that the Jews are going to need to rethink all three of those modes of relationship and when they're trans evaluating the Jews are not going to do without the hope for redemption and so it makes sense to me that the secular progressive vision this idea that the world is going somewhere and that that somewhere is good Vince by the mastery of nature the increase in knowledge that grows the political and social freedom will fire the Jews and strike a deep chord in their soul just like it fired the modern era I mean come on who doesn't dream of the humanist paradise where everyone's free to do what they like and the streets are paved with gold however if you've been following the last century the modern world was derailed philosophically in to some degree socially by alphabets and Hiroshima if that's where progress leads then I want off the bus despite this sort of philosophical deathblow nevertheless the world built by modernity is gonna remain energetically alive and thriving for the rest of the 20th century I mean hey it's still doing all right right now and that secular Redemption vision that fires the world of global peace and prosperity the rule of international morality is going to coalesce around transnational structures like the UN and ideals like international law and lo and behold American jury will become deeply invested in both those structures and the ideals at least in their hopes and dreams if not in their activism so that's one side of secular Redemption but it looks very different secular Redemption adding is in the newborn State of Israel in 1948 because rather than an internationalist progressive vision of one world here we have the redemptive appeal of secular national rebirth once again now I could make an argument that there's really no truly secular messianism in Israeli society at least not in that uniquely Israeli aspect that's all about historical really meant about being a people in our land once again and then there is the internationalist left which is quite secular and has a strong presence here from its earliest socialist roots but it seems to me that the unique element of Israeli redemptive thinking is the national story and even if that purports to be secular it's really prophetic in its roots and we will speak don't worry going forward about how the Zionist ideal of Manhattan ah el ha Palma from the Hebrew Bible to the striking arm of the Hagana underground of this dream of reattaching the modern Jewish story directly to its biblical roots skipping over exile how that's gonna play out in Israeli politics but for now for our conversation and these purposes this is another gap which divides we had those two narrative arcs how Israeli and American Jewry are telling separate stories right the immigrant and the pioneer and now we have a divergent image of the end because even if the International element exists in those societies the particulars Israeli national and yes call it secular identity has a very different vision of what redemption in the world will look like then the progressive American dream and as long as they run in parallel then theoretically this is not a problem if the sort of nationalist and internationalists visions can contribute to one another there's no absolute chasm here but we know that the national and international narratives overall in the world are headed for a showdown as the 20th century comes to a close and so it should come as no surprise to those of us sitting a little bit further into the 21st century that we're feeling the different pictures of the endgame is another piece that makes it very difficult for American and Israeli Jews to communicate so we have divergent narrative arcs the stories we tell about ourselves and we have differing visions of the end the third piece in the puzzle at least for now has to do with the very problem of language itself with the question of our Israeli and American Jews even talking about the same things when they use the same words if we've ever learned together I'm sure that we've spoken about the problem of the signifier and the signified this idea that a word is not a little box which holds meaning that I can hand to you and you open up and know exactly what I'm talking about because a word like God country religion means something to me and it probably means something to you but the chance is that it means the same thing that both of us are quite low unless we're in an ongoing conversation about what they mean and therefore when I use a word I may know exactly what my intent is I've done the work I've clarified and when you hear it you may know exactly what you think it means because you've also contemplated the question but the likelihood that we're talking about the same thing is low and therefore this leads to breakdowns in communication on the interpersonal much less the inter communal level so we have to ask the question when Israeli and American Jews even enter into dialogue to the words that we use mean the same thing first things first even with all the diverse factors of religiosity country of birth communal culture that are the hallmark of Jewish experience down through the ages American and Israeli Jewry at least started off with a deeply shared common language through our texts and traditions be it in our deep historical experience or be it in the ever-present external definitions placed on us by the non-jewish world around us there are however certain fundamental terms there were shared but took on a new shape in the 20th century and have this some degree become a dialogue within Israel and America much less between them and it's a dialogue which is very divisive so I want to pose three different questions of terms to help us understand this last piece in the puzzle number one what is and um I know it's normally translated as people but as we've spoken about the whole Zionist movement could be summed up as a consideration of this question what is it to be a people what's an um and the birth of a Jewish nation state in 1948 didn't end that conversation it did however give it a new fixed point around which it began to revolve and that fixed point looks very different from without then from within and that's not even considering that the cataclysmic events of the mid 20th century made any nuanced theoretical discussion of what it is to be an um take a quick back seat to the very practical question of how does that um survive this in my eyes is a critical conversation and one that needs to be revived in order to clarify what we mean we'll use the term um people and one of the implications of being one um so that's number one number two what is toe ha now in America the context for the question of Torah and therefore for defining even the meaning of the term is the Civic nation-state it's a place in which religion and government are held to be intrinsically separate and furthermore in America communal existence is going to be dominated by reformed Judaism at least in 1948 and therefore the question of what is Torah will revolve around tensions between tradition and assimilation and tensions between communal allegiance and personal liberty these are classic modern and smarting questions in Israel on the other hand you have an ethnic nation-state it's a place that we can't assume any amicable divorce between religion and government and even though the religious and the secular in Israel will have quite a bit of common cause in State Building there's just as much grounds for all-out culture war between them and as we'll discuss under Bank varian's leadership the Orthodox world will establish quite a bit of power through a status quo that grants them control over a certain key realms of society at the same time though the huzza nish who is the religious leader that negotiated much of that structure with ben-gurion will be amazed when two years after independence the Zionists are still letting them make matzo on Pesa that's how great was he and his students fear of a militant secular state remember that isn't done to break with religion it's against it in many ways add to this the rise of an Israeli national identity as a ding unto itself an event that's gonna throw crazy cross currents into the meaning of the term Torah plus the whole problem of modernity and the undermining of traditional narratives of Torah altogether and we see that without even considering the conversation between American Israel within each society there's a tremendous struggle with the question of what is the Torah and so therefore it's not clear that when we speak to each other about such a thing that we're talking at all so what sanam what's the Torah and last but certainly not least there is what is the Jew now you heard me right I didn't say who is a Jew I said what is a Jew and there's a very important distinction between those two questions one that God willing will consider in another one of these interlude episodes before too long but we're not gonna go there now have no fear we will but not right now for now I just want to make some order these are a few key words um Torah and Jew that either unite or divide American and Israeli Jewry and we can add them to these divergent narrative arcs and these competing perhaps competing or let's just say different visions of redemption to safely say that if our hope is to develop a common language between American and Israeli jury then the Jews on both sides have to simply speak to each other more and it can't just be Stalin conversation I'm not talking about exchange of tourists we need to speak out our present identities and come to a deeper understanding of how they came to be and it's part of that we have to clarify our terms that we use for the things that mean most to us and hopefully we need to share our dreams for the future in order to figure out where they really overlap this is the task of season three and one that I actually aim to do in actuality not just theoretical I want to speak to people in the streets and in order to get us started on that I want to have an opening conversation right now with someone who like myself spans that divide personally and who is also deeply engaged in bridging it for others so hold tight for a minute while we transition into an interview segment with David a bit poll creator of the judicious blog okay we're back but I'm not alone any longer I get really used to actually kind of sitting in the closet there recording on my own so it's exciting for me to be in the presence of someone else not just someone else I'm here with David a pit bull founder endler creator really of Julius calm it's a Jewish group blog and is really one of the founding voices of the entire Jewish blogosphere if I could use a frame such as that I David hate doing this play I'm good how are you so thank you for welcoming into your home excited like I said to get out see the light here and not be surrounded by the echoes of my own voice it's always it's always a good time but we're in the middle of a conversation about the relationship between the American and Israeli jewelry and and what I'd like to speak to you a little bit about is where you see that conversation to be right now and where perhaps it might be headed in what you're doing in order to make it go there but first just tell us a little bit about yourself we are we from we re away to Calgary now I was born in Israel in two parents who had immigrated to Israel from Morocco and we left Israel when I was two years old and moved to Canada where I grew up where in Canada Montreal uh-huh so we can do this in French if you want embarrass myself and then 14 years ago and I came back to Israel and I've been here since what brought you back Zionist dream it was time it was time it was time I mean it's a whole long and funny story but it has nothing to do with the subject at hand well not a lot to do with the so maybe not directly but give us one little snippet but once some more than I was I would before I left Israel before I left Canada I was running a web design firm and we had a studio in Old Montreal it's beautiful I had an apartment like a quarter of a block away the good life right like just perfect location you know we had the we had the the ghetto Scholl just up the street so I had access to kosher food I had access to synagogue and it was a legendary community that write very legendary and it was it was it was great and then a group of Israelis came along and bought the building that my office was in oh and and that signal sort of like the death knell of the neighborhood it was the gentrification had taken its its final toll everything there had converted to condos and I was like okay this is a sign from God I'm never gonna find an office as grandiose and his wonderful and expensive is the one that I had and so I packed up and left amazing I could see there's much more in there but it is always worthwhile that's seeing what gives each of us that last little boom to get over those it was like it was a sign from God I was like i'ma go to Israel i'ma find their moms and I'm gonna buy their houses and turn them into Web Design Studios yeah so those guys I'll be the candidate so here you are even here for 14 years and what's judicious what are you doing well Jewishness is very simple it's a group blog where we write about anything having to do with the Jewish world writ large and and Israel and you can find you know in-depth analysis about the Middle East you can find interesting podcasts it's your story you guys are amazing new hosts for the content I'm grateful and you can find things like the unofficial guide to sex on birthright Israel for instance that's the unofficial one because if there's one it's not yet published know they're working having problems getting the pictures passed the religious I mean we're actually working now on the unofficial guide to Palestine the unofficial birth rate Israel guide to Palestine oh that's gonna be that's good that's but I have a job let me know when that comes out but it and and for a period of about eleven years we're an annual festivals in Long Beach California where we would have you know kids from all over the US and Canada kids I mean Jewish students and young adults they were getting all come down for like a three day a three day festival with with Shabbat and speakers and and all kinds of things and you could and it was it was a great experience we literally had Hasidic Jews rubbing shoulders maybe not literally there with like code pink activists and every major Jewish band in North America played at our festivals it was literally Jewish ten yeah it was great and it wasn't like a cure of thing it wasn't like you know I mean obviously we kept kosher and Shabbat and whatnot but people were free to do whatever they wanted to do and if it wasn't care of what was the goal a cure if by the way for those who don't know is outreach right so what was the goal of any of these festivals the goal was to present an image of Judaism that was more realistic than that that had been presented to most Jewish young adults which is you know a dry boring thing that you have to get through to do your Bar Mitzvah or something that was focused on the Holocaust and an anti-semitism we were promoting a vibrant and relevant Judaism that was also a lot of fun and then people who had were free to decide what they wanted to do with it afterwards amazing you see judicious as an online platform essentially serving the same purpose basically yeah the festival was like a real-life version of the blog and and that's all it is it's not really nefarious or anything like that but the we also ran a number of birthright Israel trips branded as Jewish as birthright Israel trips and I led about a dozen of them and you're speaking the past tense you do not lead birthright any longer well no I definitely don't there's a yeah it's hard to keep it fresh and and I live here and I've got a family and and whatnot and birthright Israel doesn't really need our assistance in in promoting the trips anyway it's a well-oiled machine it's a well-oiled machine and and there's lots and lots of demand and but I mean 12 trips you're talking about years of experience of working with a writer can you write and I continue to have I mean well I don't leave birthright Israel trips but we work with an organization called Shabbat of a lifetime when we host birthright Israel groups in our homes for Shabbat so uh-huh the last group was two weeks ago so I keep my I keep myself so whatever picture you talk about it how many kids in your sorry young girls young adult teenage children now I call everybody kids how many people are you speaking about in your house and we're sitting here where we host events we're sitting here where we host the Shabbat events and we have 20 20 20 21 people that can sit here well on three tables set up like a tea it's right I'm picturing the cheek and jowl Shabbos meal yeah but it would be amazing it is amazing I mean I remember we had a Shabbat trip from sponsored by the Los Angeles Federation that came here two years ago and the Madrid recently came back to Israel on an um on another trip and he specifically requested to be in this house that's good us for Shabbat so you know you're doing something right you know we're doing something right so it's a good experience a fun time and and like I said it allows me to just to keep up with what's going on when you're kids these days yeah well that's exactly where I want to go and that's probably a good segue because as I mentioned already the first half of this episode was my thoughts on three elements that either unite or divide American and Israeli jury and I just want to ask you a very simple straightforward question is in your experience being a native-born Israeli having lived in North America having come back and not just come back but but but deeply committed to it involved in a dialogue well you said if a presenting Judaism in a very different light to English speakers so nevertheless all over the press right now everybody talking that there's a break up coming in and it's gonna be messy and all this I personally think media frenzy but in your eyes we'll start with the negative because I want to end on a positive what's the number one thing that you see right now dividing Israeli and North American jury I would have to say probably politics mmm the majority of North American Jews as we all know vote Democrat and the majority of Israeli Jews keep reelecting the left wants to claim its majority Knesset has not reflected that for a good 20 years right exactly so we keep reelecting a party that's that's you know we could and Benjamin Netanyahu supported by then by by Sheldon Adelson who's also a big birthrate Israel supporter sure so politics but I want to push on that a little bit because politics is an abstraction you know if you're if you're having dinner with a bunch of friends and this one votes for you know the mean Akash the new right and that one votes for merits in in theory of course their political views divide them but there are people that can sit rationally around a table and say okay we don't agree let's talk about that and there are those that as soon as the political distinction comes out so everybody retreats to their corner and pulls out the knives like we know what's going on particularly in America right now in the polarization here as well although here it's kind of the more of a fragmentation since god forbid that you should ever have just two polls so so tell me more politics it sounds to me like a trigger not so much a cause well I mean I think you have to look at the way politics is evolved over the last say decade with the advent of certain political consultants who have determined that that preying on people's divisions and fear gets folks elected oh yeah it's folks elected and you see you know the same political consultants that help Benjamin Netanyahu win election after election are helping Viktor Orban all right the house broke in the press right that just broken the press with George Soros as is the big bogeyman because they they have no no other opposition and why not just use the Jews because it's such an old-school resonant feel that the Jews are the boogeyman it's in people's DNA that that's a discussion for another time right yeah so so meaning it's not just politics but it's the way in which politics have evolved right it's it preys on division it appraised on irrational fear and it preys on creating enemies where none exists so I guess that in Hungary it was George Soros and and it's funny the Viktor Orban was was a fellow of the open society I mean he he was one of the beneficiaries of George Soros money and now you know it was like politically expedient to blame him in in in Israel it's been journalists or bus loads of Palestinian Arab citizens voting oh my god the horror all right voting way way in droves no what was it bus loads bus loads it was the phrase right right I mean Israeli citizens doing what they're legally supposed to be doing I would say poorly obligated you yeah morally oh of course and in that is is posed as an existential threat and I'm not like some bleeding-heart lefty and whatnot you know I'm a proud scientist and it's divisive and it creates hatred and it makes it so that people can't have calm rational conversations about the subject because the is existential so ah so that's another piece I heard a couple of things so there's politics there's the nature of the divisive sort of tactical approach to politics that's evolved over the last ten years I heard two more pieces in here there's the existential fear that we're very familiar with here in Israel I mean I've been here for going on 18 years I can't count how many times I've voted God knows we have how many governments have we had in the last 18 years but every time you're faced with not just the media frenzy and the consultants spin but a real sense that gosh if we do this wrong this might be it rightly or wrongly I'm a bit so there is that existential fear which doesn't really allow for nuanced conversation there's a last piece I heard kind of maleic lying there behind the cards which is that there's a sense that well I'm right and you're wrong so therefore if I don't get politics my way I'm gonna take my ball and go home now this is like you know like I don't really it's true the synthesis of you know it's true every citizen should vote but they should vote who for what I want them to vote for not that they should just vote right ah so this is I want to come back to this notion that I have a sense that um that this idea the the freedom that both sides of the equation American and Israeli have to like look at each other and say well if you're not gonna play by my rules you know yeah I'm going home as part of the problem here so that's good politics definitely a classic division let's try the flip side what you see is the number one thing tying us together well we're all Jews we all share what that familial well we identify his juice on the basic fundamental level whether or you're talking religion whether you're talking you know whole logic definitions of Judaism or whatnot people sit there and define themselves as Jews and therefore tie themselves to a common Jew fate yes right so when you have white nationalists or Islamic fundamentalists criticizing the Jews they're talking about all the Jews they're talking about you know the Hasidic Jew and mesh RM they're talking about the Upper West Side liberal Jew I mean if those even exist anymore there are few of them laughing they own all the buildings now we we may not share a common faith but we definitely share a common fate and and that's a very powerful unifier so in that sense I like that phrase the if not a common faith than a common eight I mean I heard you mention two things first all you you slipped in ready beginning the sense of family it's like the tribe remember I was in high school I never had to go to gym class in my my tenth and eleventh grade years we were always allowed to work out I was big big weightlifter why because my gym teacher mr. Schwartz used to say it's okay for her you're a member of the tribe right hey there is that sense of family although I wonder I went to a Jewish school we got no favors for that because everything's there were all members of the tribe so we can squash it our intertribal in tribal battles well so there is that sense and I wonder only maybe come back to that as well in terms of how enduring that is and it really a little bit more what it means but let's start with the second one first which is that the external pressure they say it's always interesting to me how quickly when I speak to people that we all go myself included to the sense of hatred that well you know when when you know the white supremists or the you know Islamic nationalists you know talk about the Jews they're not making these distinctions and as will speak about going forward in the Jewish story the very nature of of Jewish immigration to the State of Israel ultimately will revolve around the definition which was supplied by the Nazis right that you will hear this phrase and I haven't yet tracked down who said it first but the idea that the law of return which gives the legal right to every Jew to become an instant citizen upon settings well instant subject of bureaucracy but here legally instant citizen when they set foot here is defined by one Jewish grandpa why if it was good enough for Hitler it's good enough I think I think that's a fallacy I think the understanding is that that that's based on Hitler is wrong I think it's just about they wanted they didn't want to create a situation whereby a Jewish man married to say a non-jewish woman and I'm using this example completely randomly would not escape his his you know tormenters because he we didn't want to leave his family behind would not have that that impediment that interesting well I'm doing able to come to Israel and bring his non-jewish family and therefore we would save one Jewish life by bringing in you know I'm researching it right now fortunately a lot of the conversations are transcripted so so so we can we can read them slowly but surely I'm making my way through there so it remains to be seen but either way it's it's empower powerful and important to me that that that sense of negative pressure and I wonder do you really think that holds us together because I work at one of the things I do I'm a faculty member at the parties Institute where we get heard of that place you have I'm sure right where we get intellectually speaking the cream of the crop of American liberal jury is just amazing amazing students and they're the ones who are who are really deeply embedded in the liberal world but but still attached enough that they come it comes to Jerusalem I mean it's an amazing thing I love them for it and they are very tired of that notion that the world hates us so much so that I often find it stunning how ignorant they are of forget history just modern politics and the truth of its manifestation so I'm not arguing with you that that has is there but I wonder how how much my students would agree there's there's definitely that definitely exists and it's and it's and it's realistic and it's true cuz you're the homicide is by the way the American Jews will say well if you Israelis would just tow the line and do the good thing then the world wouldn't hate us in America they wouldn't tie us to your boat and the subtle unstated so far buy most of them is and I really wish I could just cut the tie because then you guys do over the heck you want and I won't be blamed right right and they can always point to their liberal credentials to demonstrate the fact that they're not like those bad Israelis yeah we know that phenomenon but let's get back to something that you said before and this is definitely something that's been very important in in our evolution and delicious and what we do the notion of first of all Judaism existed before Hitler this is a shock to many people thank God but the notion that we allow our haters to define who we are Robb's judaism of so much of what it's about it's not this like you know death cult that worships the dead and whatnot it's it's it's a very living thing and it's and and this is a has been an issue with with me and with Julius and we've noticed that a religion or an identity based on death is one that's just not very compelling six million people died now marry a Jew exactly exactly that's just not very compelling it's not very interesting and it's not it's not real it it's not the doesn't represent the breadth and depth of what Judaism is about and in terms of right so we've definitely taken a very policy about the Holocaust that has gotten us in trouble you know almost making fun of a march of the living trips and and the proliferation of Holocaust museums across the United States while Jewish day schools are shutting down and parents can't afford to send their kids to study what Judaism is actually all about right and but that's but there's millions and millions being pumped into a memorialization of the Holocaust in a very particular way that I personally find not how pivotal if not in digesting how many Emily Holocaust museums do you need we need more Jewish day schools though that's that's for sure and I see it all the time when it when I'm on these birthright Israel trips and and everyone's seen Schindler's List and everyone's been to the US Holocaust Museum but people don't know the the very basics the fundamentals of Judaism of Jewish history of anything like that and which has made the existence of birthright Israel but not almost necessary you know there and it's sad that the idea is literally not it's not about making Jewish babies or getting drunk and having a little zyo orgy or whatever those just side benefits it's it's a what it's about it's about having ten days in Israel make up for you know a lack of any formal Jewish education beyond Bar Mitzvah years and the bills still out on the staff whether it's money well-spent right right and and people sit there and say the stats are right there and the others are like well the stats have been massaged and you know what you say about statistics right yeah yeah plus it's a generational question exactly I was always top of my teachers that if I want to know whether I've succeeded inning in inculcating my values into my children I have to wait and see how they raise theirs right that's the real question right and and and you have to wait a long time nowadays oh yeah like starting families super super late and you have no idea and what keeps Jews what keeps Jews what allows Jews to continue to identify with the Jewish community and absence of children in absence of a pressing need and and it's very little it's very little so this is once again something that divides us because there in America in theory at least you could step out you could pass as we say right here in Israel the the circle has been drawn around us and not that they're only Jews here obviously I mean you know twenty percent of our country are Arab Israelis and there's a good handful of others nevertheless here the identity to identify us as Jews by the nature of Israelis is a fair bid right meaning right as opposed to America where you could pass I want to try another angle here we'll just we'll keep wandering our way through because I also don't want to eat up your whole morning so here's here's here's a different questions what do you think we could learn from each other you know you speak to these kids on a Friday night and you mentioned they're there I find almost stunning ignorance and by the way it's not just the kids it didn't go to day school as a person who teaches Jewish history how many times do I have to have an a school graduate asked me whether Konica happened during the first temple or the second before I say to myself we have a problem or so so you're sitting around the table these kids and imagining young adults and and you're naturally in the position of teacher or at least a host and facilitator and so there's an assumption of knowledge but I know that you're an intelligent person and and your ears very open so there's probably what to be learned from them as well so so what do you think Israeli Jewry has to learn from America very and vice versa well the thing that stands out the most are the basic fundamental principles of democracy the existence living that from whom I think the Israelis need learn that from from the Americans the notion that there exists checks and balances for a reason the the you know the the sort of the American experience not the Canadian experience but the American experience has definitely been based on on overthrowing the yoke of tyranny and therefore you know a centralization of power in one particular area has always been seen as a threat to the body politic and that's super important and people here don't seem to understand that so we have a justice ministers trying to sort of like disembowel the the Supreme Court and prevent it from being able to act as a check and balance on on on the Knesset is seen as say the exact opposite of what she's trying to do is actually put a check on the Supreme Court because it's out of balance but I get your point there's a problematic in the structure of the government right and then and then again you know you have the Likud Party putting out you know banner giant banners advertising the fact that the the press is not going to determine who's going to be the next it's an attack on the press oh yeah you know out-and-out attacking the press and and disregarding the important role played by the fourth it's the fourth standard a and and America is the fifth one here right and it seems to me the that Israelis have missed out on understanding the the sorts of things that you would learn I guess in civics 101 in America about the importance of democracy and how oftentimes things seem like you know democracies and deter that the strength and the vibrancy of a democracy isn't determined by how well the majority is represented but by how well the minority is is protected mm-hm and and Israelis don't seem to understand that such that you know populist messages based on I don't know ignorant or whatnot resonate with the population here oh sure who come maybe from parts of the world where democracy is not you know part of the DNA or they didn't grow up and those sorts of things and it makes sense this is a significant piece that we're going to speak going forward in season three I actually with all the warts and bumps have a tremendous pride in our democracy because just think about it in 1948 the first of all no guarantee that was going to be a democratic statement leadership was socialists they took the word democratic out of the Declaration of Independence which is good because I mean look it didn't help the Democratic level with the Congo no and but but like you're pointing out I mean you know half the country comes from Soviet Russia and the other half comes from the Arab Middle East so where does this Democrat notion come from nevertheless what I hear you saying is that there's more to a democracy than the structures of government or the idea of majority rule there's a culture and that American Jewry is a product of Civic democratic culture and there's there's what we learn there right I mean they marched they fought to fashion America into the democracy that it is today yeah and there's a question by the way why one of the things that we're gonna pursue as well as the is the American Jewish experience has been such that liberal democracy is a safe space for them whereas there's a deep part of the Israeli Jewish experience which is let's just say less than sure then a liberal democracy is a safe space for us here so let's flip the side and what do American Jews have to learn from Israeli jury well the cool thing about living in Israel is that regardless of whether you're super religious or super secular you still live within a very Jewish framework mmm that means you know the the days of the weaker Jewish days of the week the the months are Jewish months the holidays that you take or not Christmas the dogs speak Hebrew it's amazing the language is a is a resurrected ancient language and and here Judaism is often at its most vibrant and and interesting and complicated and you know dare I say fun and that's something that that Jews can learn oftentimes I mean I speak to American Jews and you know you sit there and you say Judaism and right away it's like I mean they know what an interesting vibrant life looks like but it ain't Jewish right right and it can be and it should be I mean I know that for me everything I do is is is based on Judaism literally everything I do who I vote for how I spend my time is is informed by knowledge that I that I got from from from Judaism and and it's it's important our history and our values define who we are not just as a people but as individuals and when you take that away when you have a giant portion of American Jews growing up without any knowledge of who they are or where they came from beyond they try to kill us we survived let's eat the eye I think they lead less rich lives and this is all part of the whole secularization of everyone in in America and but here secularization doesn't mean deegeu I do the to a zation however the word I was trying exactly whoops yeah so so great so they hear you saying is that essentially what what it's Rayleigh jury has to offer is um a vision of a life lived Jewishly as opposed to what it means to do Jewish which in America has has lost its hold on on most of American jury right some very compelling I mean how many bagels can you eat actually a lot but let's not go there has missed that so deeply in the schmear all right I wanna I want to wrap up with one last question because you have to say is amazing and I can see there are conversations for the future last thought is I mean the podcast here is the Jewish story and part of what I want to do in season three is is kind of move toward the history I'm sorry I move toward the future because you know history's not gonna last forever so I gotta figure out what I'm gonna do going forward and so I want to hear from you what you think is the exciting coming chapter in the Jewish story here we are in the year fifty seven seventy-nine or 2019 depending on how you count there's the world seems to be swirling in so many ways I tell you I have to add in that I know from my students that there is a very vibrant fermenting Jewish world happening in America it's just happening in non-traditional spaces so there's like I think happening out there and I feel like you have a good if not bird's-eye view you've got a tremendous perspective from both sides of the divide here so what do you see to be the exciting coming chapter of the Jewish story give us a teaser grief good grief I wish I knew I will very like the trends are grim on every level so we see for instance a tremendous rate of intermarriage in the United States that threatens basic principles of of Jewish identity we see also growing it's you know that the most dynamic elements of of the Jewish community are are the herati sector they're the ones that are having the babies they're the ones that are growing by leaps and bounds and everyone else is you know they not as much the one thing that that that kind of perhaps excites me is is yesterday was international Holocaust Memorial Day and it's interesting that since the Holocaust we still haven't returned to the levels of population that we had not even close in night close it was 18 million before the Holocaust right now soaking-wet were at about 14 okay so depending on the numbers that you you know the memorator the number that I saw was was there were 16 million Jews 16 and 16 17 million Jews pre-world War II Holocaust and now we're up to like 15.6 I'm not buying that number no not not even with every double count you forget but we get we could argue about what your point was the point is that soon soon we're going to return back to the population levels that we had before the Holocaust and I think that will give us an opportunity to to perhaps reboot and it's going to be an interesting Jewish world half if not more of the Jews are going to be living in Israel a significant chunk of them are going to be traditional ultra-orthodox and whatnot and then there's going to be the remnant in the United States that are going to trend more liberal how we as a Jewish community deal with these differences is going to determine whether we condemn ourselves to a bleak and divided future or whether we usher in a new Jewish renaissance which would be really really interesting and what that's gonna look like I don't know I mean III have an idea you know and a lot of it relates to the interaction between traditional Judaism and-and-and liberal Judaism but like things like I don't know chillin in New York is very fun where you see liberal Jews and Orthodox Jews and off the Darracq Jews commingling together and having a good time and gathering around the chillin pot right I'm sure it'll it'll it'll involve a violin so so a reboot I like it and we're coming back around the 70 years of the State of Israel which is a very whole number getting our population without our argument about the numbers back to some sense of awe we were we were here once at one of our most vibrant points in history and and potentially a new Jewish Renaissance and and you I think that people need to check out julius this je w li CI o us you know you don't you don't need to check out Jewishness though I think people do it come on let me it's like absolutely necessary but I would I would rather you sat there and said I know this is gonna sound weird to some people say one bracha today okay and think about what you're saying just one just pick it okay then but they're not mutually exclusive and and the reason I would encourage them to check that out as well as any other platform in which ideas of various stripes to come together is because the line that I'm pushing for the bridge between American and Israeli juries that we need to learn to speak to each other and in order to do that we have to develop a common language and the challenges that we face being on almost opposite sides of the globe not even sharing a common language the the deep divide between the ethnic nation-state in this civic nation state that we are embedded in poses particular challenges but this idea of a reboot and a renaissance is appealing to me because those very challenges can become the source for a real dynamic creativity today I want to thank you for spending time and as long as I'm thanking people I want to thank everybody that's listening and in particular I want to thank the folks that give their hard-earned money to help make this show possible to keep it widely available in free and I want to invite you to join them go right now to the new website that's Jewish story that Co in the upper right hand corner you'll see a button that says be a patron you can click on through for a little bit of her podcast support also if you want to dedicate an episode we've had people do that you can send me an email at Ralf Mike Feuer at gmail.com and I'm more than happy to dedicate a show to the living or to the deceased so as long as I'm thanking - I want to thank the Land of Israel Network best the Land of Israel dot-com for creating a platform that allows me to reach so many amazing people want to thank the pardis Institute pa RDS org dot al for building an educational institution that gives me the chance to teach amazing