THE PRESSURE TEST OF EVERY SALES CAREER | Episode 5 with Meny Hoffman & Pinchus Shiff

Welcome to the Let's Talk Business podcast, a project of the PEX Group. Gain valuable, actionable ideas from the world's top business leaders to help you take the next step in your business journey. And now, here is your host, Manny Hoffman. >> Okay, Pinas, episode number five. Um, been it's been a journey. A lot of content out there and thousands of listeners throughout the different platforms. >> Thank you for the feedback, by the way. Means a lot. >> Yeah. And um >> you know what I like even more than the feedback and the positive feedback is a any constructive stuff that they could share and also topics because as much as we could think of what what we want to discuss the you know the life journey of a salesperson but there's always more to discuss and we could actually include it. So thank you for everybody that reached out. So I want to start over the conversation directly with what we left out in in episode 4 because you know we ended up covering a lot and the time didn't allow for it which is the part of rejection. Now yeah I know people say oh we have to speak about rejection because the fear of rejection is very popular uh uh theme when you speak to >> I think rejection is overrated. >> Correct. But I I want to I want to frame the question a little different. everybody and every every salesperson will get rejections, will get the nose as we call it, and sometimes it's good. I know you're very vocal about it. Um um we'll talk about your your approach to it. Um but I want to start off the new sales guy that's starting his career, they weren't prepared for it. How do you prepare for it? >> Two things about rejection, okay? Number one, expect it. You know, when you expect the crash to hit to hit you or or I always tell I always tell new sales people they should expect a depression within the first six months. A deep depression >> and I only had Yeah. I only had my like one guy that didn't get it. It's very I guess a colder personality. >> It totally makes sense. The logic you get into sales, you finally choose your industry. You're optimistic. The first few months you have like energy. You're fired up. You push. you push and it takes time to see results. The depression usually happens before the results kick in and you're already burnt out from putting in the effort. >> You almost want to quit. >> Yeah. Almost. People usually say I'm quitting. Then there's a process and and I think you should expect it. So brace for impact. Know that it's going to happen and then it's going to happen 6 to 12 months later. You gain momentum. You start making money and everything. Things became easier. And then 6 months later you're like what now? your depressions will become I guess it will pass quicker the second time and third time but I still have once in a while like I w I wake up one morning I wake up in the morning and I'm like yeah I don't feel it and when people ask me how like how many times did you want to quit Friday I'm like today this week >> every Friday >> this year this month um there's always going to be that day that you're like I'm not feeling it. And the same as we spoke the previous episode, you just do the same things as if, okay, a door man. Okay, they wake up not in a good mood. He just has to do the same thing. He wakes up in the morning, he shows up, gets his hat, jacket, goes to the door, hails hails down a cab if you need, takes the packages, greet the people. That's it. Your job is so clear defined. >> The reason Yeah. Most office people don't struggle with this depression. Okay, they're down today. They come in, they knock out their tasks. Um, some people call it a non-analytical day. Like, you're not in a good mood. Don't analyze your life. Don't make decisions. Just wash dishes, map the floor, get your tasks done. By the way, some of these days are my most productive days. I knock things out like things that have been waiting for weeks and then boom, boom, boom, because you're not in a creative space. But know it, expect it. It's going to happen. But when boiling down to sales, the sales guy wakes up in the morning, he doesn't feel it. He's like, well, his job is not so clear defined. It could be some out of a structure, but okay, I'm not feeling it today. Calling PE. The more structure and the more you know exactly what your job is and your technicals and your details and what you work on, the easier it's going to be for you to work and to get things done while you're in a bad state or depressed state. But rejection obviously is a no. Yeah. >> So let's go. We went into this. Let's go back. So rejection number one expect it. People will tell you no. In episode three I went through the entire the sales process a bit. So I want to ask you a question. What do you mean by rejection? You call the guy says there we're payroll software. I assume you have 10 employees. I assume you have a payroll software in place. Is there any reason we should talk at all about it? And the guy says no. Not a reason at all. Is that rejection or this guy is not a potential client for now? >> Correct. So that is the easy one. >> Let's go to Okay, you have the conversation. >> Give me give me the scenario. >> So I'll I'll tell you a story and I think um just that that was a wakeup call for a salesperson to share with me the story to change the way they do sales in general in the company. This episode of the Let's Talk Business podcast is sponsored by Flow Digital and Pipe Drive. Sales is the lifeblood of every business. No sales means no revenue and no business. 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So the sales guy told me that he was selling software in the earlier years like where in software was a a new thing and he had this amazing back and forth with a client, a potential client about taking their service um proposals back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. And one day the the client called him up and says, "You know what? Um, we're ready to move forward. Our full entire team wants your full entire team to be on a call just making sure that we're aligned, ask the right questions, the technicals, the IT department and so on and so forth. He was so excited. He was just about a year and a half as a salesperson. This was like his big fish that he worked a couple of months on. He he schedules a call. He goes into his boss and everything. No, we have to have everybody know these calls. We need to have everybody about to close the sale. They get on a call. It was before the Zoom times. It was earlier like it was more like a physical call. And they get on the call. They speak and the team is asking all the right questions. >> I think you shared with me that story. Did I? >> They trying to extract information. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. We spoke on it on the >> I don't know if on the podcast or or >> you shared with me that story and they basically they wanted to build the same software and they needed all his advice. >> Exactly. Exactly. Could be. I shared it. You see we have so much content out there. But but the saleserson take a situation like this. This person could be set back 12 months of of of excitement and and >> is that rejection or it's a it's a a fasc it's it's >> it's a hit. >> So that one is obviously to extreme this extreme but these conversations happen every day where the saleserson walks home and says I think I have this in the bag right >> and then a day later saying oh you went with the competition. >> Okay. So that's not rejection. That's I don't know how I would phrase it. It's not they they rejected him. >> They not rejected him. They do business. Okay. So what is an expect rejected doing business with? >> Yeah. Perfect. So he expected to make a lot of money. >> Yeah. >> And he's not going to make the money. >> He made goals. Another five leads that were in the back. He thought it's in his bag for this month. Boom. Decided to go with somebody else. >> That's not the the the actual rejection. That's the the the the ups and downs of sales. And you got to brace for impact. Be ready. When I'm talking rejection is some people after when people don't want to talk to them, people don't pick up phones. People respond, "Hey, please stop following me." >> They're rejecting to talk to them or anything. And that's very painful. Usually people who have a fear of rejection or get rejected and it hurts them. >> Is it because somewhere in their life they got rejected or they have a certain feeling about themselves? For example, I'm not worthy, not good enough. And when a person says, "I'm not interested in talking to you." It just wakes up that old feeling. Okay, >> two things we spoke about. Number one, be ready for it. But number two, which is more important. Okay, I don't think anyone ever rejected me. They reject either my product. Not everyone needs payroll. Not everyone needs a new payroll company. Some people are happy with what they use. Not everyone should be and is my client. Number two, they reject my skills. I wasn't quick enough, brief enough. I I wasn't I didn't articulate. I wasn't clear about my offer. And that's something the good part about it is that I can still change. So instead of getting knocked down by rejection, think about what did I reject? They reject my product. There's nothing I could do or maybe they rejected my skill. Let me let me use this as motivation to sharpen my skill so next time I don't get knocked down again. And that's all. But when you really follow problem, solution, relationships, doing sales the right way, I don't notice rejection so often anymore. People tell me, "Hey, I went with a different vendor. It hurts for a bit. All I do is, hey, I didn't see that coming. What did I miss? Obviously, I did something wrong. And I would tell the client, say, "Thank you for letting me know. I'll take the blame on this." I always I'll take the blame on this one. Apparently, I either dropped the ball, didn't understand you correctly, or was misinformed about what you're looking for. Would you help me understand which one it was? It helps me grow and learn, not in a needy beggar way, >> from a place of strength because I want to be the best. And people would give me feedback that they would never give me. And sometimes it opened the deal again. That's not the intention. Sometimes they became my clients later just because they felt like they left. And instead of me becoming upset, I am actually here to learn. They go to that vendor and sometimes they get so upset they're like, "Let me I I I had a good conversation with I have good memory with him and everything. I'm going to go back." So when it comes to rejection, these two expect it. >> No one is rejecting you. Most of the people that reject you, don't know who you are. Some of them don't know your face. They don't know who like. So so it might feel like rejection. It's not real rejection. And you can put on that shield saying they don't need my product. No problem. >> They they don't like my skill. I'll do my best to be more skilled, learn, and train. I I I like to use the the example sometimes um when it comes to this that you know we all called have a cell phone. We called sometimes at one point customer service for an issue on the bill or whatever it is. Yeah. And you start screaming on the rep Verizon rep. You know who who she is, where she lives, which state she's sitting. You're not screaming at her. You're screaming. >> And imagine she goes home >> and she's like, "People hate me. No one hates you. No one knows who you are." >> Yeah. They're just upset at Verizon or whatever it is. >> Yeah. So the a saleserson has to be able to distance themselves not to take it personally. However, some sales people some sales people are emotional connected to that relationship and it and you know especially if let's say you're existing customer leave you >> at at one point let's say um you're a salesperson in the construction industry and and this developer uses you all the time and you are looking out oh you heard that they're going to be building this big project. Wait a minute. It went without they didn't even give me a chance to quote. Like it it bothers you. So let me ask you a follow-up question. Is >> I I want to elaborate on that for a second before I hope you remember. >> Sure. >> I would call up the guy and say, "Hey, Abe, we've been doing business together for a while now." >> From my understanding, I think we made you really happy, but I assume I'm wrong because I heard you're going with someone else and you're the owner. You do whatever you want. I'm not complaining or anything. I would just like to learn why or how I can approve for different customers and people will tell you the truth the way it is. You messed up on that project. You didn't even know. We have a process in PEX that um I have my business development person that once in a month or two then the leads that you know he knows for sure he lost. We'll just have a random call and just ask I want to extract information to see like um is it price is it decided to put the project on hold? decide to go with somebody else and figure out from that and we actually report back to to to have a conversation on the process. Correct. >> I'll tell you more. Don't get emotionally involved. And I always tell that to my team. >> Customers that canceled for some reason the emotion connection is done. It's dead. Now we can call to understand the reason or change and become better. Luckily 70 80% of people closing their Friday accounts is because they don't need payroll anymore. They sadly are unfortunately people close their business but from time to time we get a lesson here and there and it's great and we've been improving and and we actually tightened the people can cancel. That's something we implemented a while ago. People can cancel their account online. They don't have to call me. They go to settings. They literally can cancel. No contracts, no nothing. We want you to stay because you like the product. And the reason 95% people stay is because they like the product. But when you cancel it will ask you is it because of product support you don't have employees closing business there's a drop down and every dropdown gives you we make it so easy for you to report to us what went wrong >> we don't have enough data yet not many people canceled bashem but as time as the company grows once you have 2,000 clients 3,000 clients you will have cancellations and and >> it should happen not only >> turn rate every company >> it has to and not only that sometimes when a client leaves because the product wasn't a good fit I want to tell them why didn't I send the client away? Why did I accept the client the first place? Now, if the client was a good fit, then no problem. But if they weren't a good fit, how can we improve? And I think sales people are so if you would learn every time a client leaves why they weren't a good fit and next time be on the lookout and and not take them on in first place, you would have so much more time and and and so much more mental capacity and so much better clients and happier clients. >> Got it. Back to your follow-up question. My followup question was regardless of what the situation was, the person got knocked down, failed to rejected, whatever it is, they have to reset. How do you do that? >> So, the first thing people do is usually they blame the product and the company. It's the easiest. >> Oh, yeah. >> Um, I'm guilty of it myself. It's the easiest way out. Don't do that. Let's pretend the product will be perfect and everything. It still hurts. It's the same thing. say hey I didn't expect this and that's why it hurts this is a part of the process that could happen number two again take the feed it's not nothing with you it's the product or improve your skills more than that okay if you know your numbers and that's one of the most important things we haven't touched yet know your numbers and I always sit down with people at the beginning of the year how much money do you want to make how many how will how many clients you need to get in order to achieve that how will you get these clients now let's break it down by week, by month, and all of a sudden the entire picture of just go out and get clients, which is so blurry, just get gets clarified. We need to go to five shows a month. We need to call XY and Z people. We need to visit XYZ customers. One of the things that Bud, one of my sales people, does it every month, and I love that he calls clients that he signed up the same month, a year before. So every January, he would call all clients from last year, January, and ask how it's been a year. How was your experience? You know how many referrals that generate? you know how many how much how how many pieces of feedback we get that we implement and make the product even better. >> So use that and and and don't blame your product because you'll have this problem everywhere. You'll always get rejected. It's part of the pain. I don't think there's a solution by the way for the pain. I don't think you could become successful in anything in life without the pain. Marriage comes with pain to become successful. Business takes pain. I I I do feel like let's say when you're sitting in um you have an office job you mentioned before it's a whatever if it's technical even if it's analytical whatever it is you wake up in a bad mood somebody threw you off whatever it is you still do you what you got to do it's between you and the computer you data you are in the systems you working and so on and so forth sales the end of the day you have to have full energy you can't be a salesp person without your full energy and the best foot forward >> but if you know that in order to make $500,000 a You need every Wednesday to visit five clients. >> This is what it takes. >> It's different than waking up and saying, "What am I doing today?" And if every thing is >> I think knowing the same as a door man, you have to take your process. >> I'm going to I'm going to ask the question that probably people that are going to listen to this will say, "Why didn't you grill? Why didn't you grill him more?" And I'm going to ask it because there are thousands of sales people, especially younger ones that are just starting out or in the last the first 18 months of their career and they they you know they're not seeing the results as fast and or they had this this opportunity that they thought will go through and finally they bringing back to the company that I closed the sale. How did they pick themselves up the next day to say you know what I'm full for full full force fully mentally ready for it? >> It's tough. I don't think there's a way to make it less tough. >> But what is it? Is there something that they could do? Is there something that uh >> Unfortunately not. >> I think sales is not for everyone for that reason. Okay. And that's why we said know your why. Why are you in sales? >> You want to accomplish wealth, success, personal growth. >> Why do you need a strong enough reason? >> Because otherwise, why would you go through that pain? >> So the pain exists. You can manipulate it a bit saying, "Hey, I'm perfect. Talk to yourself every day. try to do you. You think I'm motivated every single day. The difference between me and a lot of people is I just do the work demotivated. A client can sometimes yell. Clients have a bad day. The client has a bad day. He calls you. He yells at you. Okay? And just he's not yelling at me. I would just sit and say, "I really appreciate." And most of the times what I say to someone yelling is, "I really appreciate you being fair to me even though you're so so frustrated. You're not giving it all out on me." Mhm. >> And then I would try very logical to solve the problem. If I can't solve it, I can't solve it. I do my best. >> So you you think something magic exists that you can like swallow or drink and like boom, it's not. I don't think >> there is a mindset. Let's say I give you I give an example in my company and because Yeah. So let me let me share with you this because entrepreneurship is very hard. You think sales is hard. >> I'm telling it to the camera now. You think sales is hard, entrepreneurship is way, way harder and it's very lonely as we said before. Now I I learned early on and mentally programmed myself every day after a phenomenal great day as you call it. I walk out of the office. I mentally say to myself probably something happened that wasn't wasn't yet told. Why did I say this? Because that's entrepreneurship. you have those bumps, you don't have the smooth sailing. So, if we ended up happening not that it's there that was a great day, nothing happened and nobody and actually nobody had anything to report then great. But I mentally prepare myself and I think that's what we need to I would want the sales people to take away from this conversation if they listen to this. >> Back to brace for impact. >> Brace for impact. But it's not it's not it's not your death sentence in sales. It's that's exactly what sales is meant. >> Correct. >> You like you said sometimes it's going to be you. Sometimes going to be the company, sometimes going be the client. Yes, fit. Not fit. And they're not not a solution. Yes, a solution. >> I have something for you that you'll like. >> Sometimes, especially when visiting clients or accountants that can refer us business. And some people are tough. They would say, "Please don't knock on my door. Please don't call me. Don't step by. Don't bother me." And the salesperson feels rejected. Thrown off their chair. And I would tell them two things that number one, I want you to know that this is where the success is at because the easy people is that's what everyone does. The successful people were able to take people like that and get to meet them and talk to them and have business conversations, etc. More than that, these are more likely to become your client and to stick with you. You know why? >> Because most sales people walk away. >> Yeah. True. >> And and that's something Charlie you mentioned Charlie. Charlie asked at one of the classes. He wrote a piece of data that most sales get closed after eight follow-ups. And he said, "What does the data tell you?" And I was like, "That you need to follow up. That you need to." He said, "No, you know what the data tells me? That most sales people suck to follow up. Why do they have to follow eight times to get a decision? >> You get it? Even decisions? No. get it at one time, two times, three times. If you have to follow up eight times with people, if most sales only happen after eight, of course, let's not take it. Of course, but the same is going to happen when you get them motivated. Think about it. This is where 70% sales people go to sleep, give up, quit. >> If I want to be from the top 30, 20, 10%, this is where it is. >> Yeah. And I also feel that what I've seen a shift in the last couple of years is the the like I think one of the previous episodes we spoke about entitlement. We use the word entitlement. I'm going to use it now for salespeople. There's certain industries or certain companies in the past that has certain entitlement. You can still see it today. So which means is all all I the reason why I closed the sale because our company offers it, nobody else does. But the second a competition comes in and somebody offers it a drop better >> or you have too much ego and people say I'll lose someone a little bit less >> exactly >> but less ego >> but the end of the day. So so the point is that that it needs to be the right fit but people also want a relationship. We're talking about business relationship. We're not talking about professional relationship. We're not talking now like oh he's my best friend and I must buy from him. Talking about they feel that the company is looking out for my success. They they their product is there. the way they think about the product, the way they think about their service and how to service me. So that's that's that's an important >> never take a client by the way because he's your friend. You know, my I I don't know. Did I share this that my father doesn't use Friday for his payroll? >> I think so. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I I think if it's not broken, don't try to fix it. And this sales is a full game. It took me a couple of years to connect the dots. Okay. What happens? Why do people buy from me? Why when I get on a call, I just get to get the decision so quickly versus other people? and it just clicked and I'll I'll I can say it in 15 seconds. You got to meet a lot of people. Get them to talk to you about their problems. Obviously, there's going to have to be trust. They're going to have to feel. Get them to talk about their problems. Present a solution if you have one. Ask them before that if I have the solution, are they even ready to change? And if they're the only one making that decision, okay, all the objections go before that. >> Share with them pricing. Ask hypotheticals. If we would charge $500 more than what you're currently using and it solves all the problems, are you still interested? You would go >> and then the sale would close itself if you have the solution for their problem and if the price makes sense. >> You know, you know what? >> That's all sales. And if you and and get them to say no. If they're out, they're out. And then will you go back to the beginning, which is find more people. >> It's a circle. >> Yeah. So I I just want to I want to share what you just said and I think this is such an important point for sales people in general is sometimes you you could be very good at the structure of how you want to do a sale and you get this customer and he throws you off. Most of the time when he throws you off there's always you know outliers at the end of the day there's going to be an issue later on because you weren't able to explain exactly the product. I'll give you an example by us and this is I think maybe I shared it as well that we only present proposals. There's no such thing I email you a proposal because there's a lot of details goes in. We'll tell you both. >> We'll talk about that more in the pricing. I think I'm saying so I've seen in the last couple of years the clients that put down a foot we get we're not getting on a Zoom call to present a proposal. >> Sorry. >> At the end of the day they weren't the decision makers. They had to send it to somebody else and that decision maker never connected. >> What do you do when they say you have to send it to me? >> I'll always send it to you. You have to give us a 50 minutes just to explain it and then I'll send it to you. I would say the way we usually operate is we present it right away. So like this we know exactly that you get the expectations and you understand it exactly. Is there any specific reason why you need me to send it to you? >> And if you and if I keep to my process of presenting it, is that a no-go? >> Does our relationship end now? >> So So I want to get into this. I want to leave it for another episode because I want to I want to go through the whole sales journey, so to speak. I want to get to one more um thing and then I think we're going to have to wrap this episode as well, which is I got a message two days ago from a salesperson that I'm pretty close with. I would say within the 18 first 18 months of their career. I had a terrible day that yeah, today dot dot dot. How would you respond? >> Great question. Um maybe thanks for sharing or ouch, how can I be of help or is there anything I can do for you? Is there any specific >> the next layer which means is obviously I know what a terrible day for a salesperson means that he didn't achieve anything. He was just uh trying and knocking on doors and doing no hope so to speak after today's activity. >> How would you explain that to the salesperson to make sure that he doesn't lose the motivation? >> I don't know I I I you know I follow a lot my gut feeling. So if someone sends me such say ouch >> you want to talk about it >> and then they'll tell me yeah so seven people rejected me out of how many and then I would go into more details until they get to a place where they understand that this would happen once in a while this would it's a numbers game today was the day >> got it >> Charlie once said about the numbers game let's say if you get a yes for every nine nos that's your game >> what if you call you start your day you call you start your month you call five people you get a yes most people stop right hair. >> Yeah, >> sure. >> They already got the yes and Charlie is like, "No, no, no, no, no. You got to get five more nos this month." >> That's what it we get. So, like, we get so excited when it's good. We get so depressed when it's down. Try to if we can get a bit little bit less emotional about it. And I think the double-edged sword is there because the reason sales people are usually the great salespeople are usually emo very emotional people because you sell emotions. You sell with emotions. You connect to people and that emotions destroy you when you get back to your office. >> I want to close with the personal question. You ready? >> Uh always. >> Okay. >> Doesn't mean I'll answer. >> So obviously now you're involved in the company Friday. obviously are um you're pretty vocal and and open about that. You have a sales team, great people. I've been following and seeing those people. You also been a sales person before that. I bet you now you've figured out a bunch like you the customer persona, who's the right fit, who's not the right fit. You've gone to Charlie and spoken with Charlie to to >> I've gone to Charlie's course four times. Did you know that? >> Oh wow. Four times. So you so you perfected it, but you probably had in your career times where you just get got rejected, you know, old fashioned >> wanted to quit. >> You wanted to quit. Have you had that >> this week, this year, this month? >> So it never goes away. >> When I was in sales, even more than now, even less than now. Now it's even more because you feel such a responsibility. And if one day three of your sales people get demotivated, for example, and you had a terrible day in product and in support, you're so overunting like why? So in sales pretty often and I think the more the response to that and and the way I handled it was more getting more focused on skill. For example, the this person rejected me in the call. What could I have done? I remember the first time someone said, "Shoot me an email." And I didn't. I said, "Okay." And I sent them an email. Of course, they never responded. I just start searching on YouTube. What do you do when someone sends tells you shoot me an email and I got this great video of Grant Cardone and I use it till today and many people I have trained at it say give me your email address you write it down you say perfect what do you want me to write in the email and most people get a bit upset and they would go like what do you mean what do you sell I'm not selling all I'm trying to understand is we do payroll I'm trying to understand if you have a payroll problem that we could talk about or if there's any reason we should talk is do you think there's any opportunity for us to do business together. Then they would say, "Look, I already have a payroll company, but I have X, Y, and Z problem. You want to talk about it more?" Go into the conversation. And once you finish, you're like, "Now, I'll send you an email with everything." And then you have an email saying, "You discuss problem X, Y, and Z. I'm not sure we have the solution yet. But if I find a solution for you, are you ready to discuss a switch?" You send that email. You know, the response rate will go from 0% to 90%. So finding when you get rejected, use that as a tool to get more skilled. But it's totally normal if if you want to take out something from it's normal. We all have it. Each and every single salesperson had times that they felt like quitting their product sucks. The company's not worth uh the paycheck doesn't justify the pain. is the ability to move forward and to put in the work and continue with like people say with your head straight into the wall until you make it. >> To sum it up, I would say not every stumbling block is a reason to quit. >> Exactly. >> Find a way around it and just motivate yourself and figure out what motivates the bypass. >> Yeah. Every person has different ways how to get back motivated and back in the game. >> Celebrate your wins. Don't be too depressed on your bad days and enjoy the process. >> Thank you, Pen, for another great episode. really enjoyed it this one. >> Thank you. This episode of the Let's Talk Business podcast is sponsored by Flow Digital and Pipe Drive. Sales is the lifeblood of every business. No sales means no revenue and no business. So, if you are a business owner or in sales, you already know how important it is to have a proper CRM. A good CRM helps you manage your sales process and keeps leads from falling through the cracks and make sure you have the proper reporting so you could analyze what's happening every single day. If the CRM is too complicated or not set set up properly, the team just won't use it. When that happens, leads get lost, follow get missed, and ultimately deals stall. That's where Pipe Drive comes in. Pipe Drive is an easytouse CRM designed to make tracking and sales process simple. 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You get the easiest CRM out there, which is Pipe Drive, and you get Flow Digital to help you set it up. Remember, your business and your sales team will always thank you for setting the right system so they could focus on closing more sales. And that's a wrap for today's episode of the Let's Look Business podcast. I hope you enjoyed the practical, nononsense advice that our guest shared. If you found value in listening, I would be so grateful if you could share the episode with your friends and if you could give the show a five-star rating on Apple Podcast or wherever platform you listen. Subscribe to the show and get notified every time we publish a new episode. The Let's Talk Business Podcast is a PEX Group original production. Until next time, make it a great day.