The Relationship Crisis Nobody Is Talking About | Rabbi Yakov Danishefsky | Behind the Bima #205

[music] Welcome back to Behind the Beimo. We have the privilege of a conversation today with the great Rabbi Yako Danishki, author and social worker and expert in particular areas of addiction. And it was a great very thoughtprovoking conversation, >> meaningful conversation. I thought >> the first I must ask was we get a lot of feedback on our banter. There are people who think that our episodes some are like just skip the banter go right to the interview. That was Dove Nubber basically said that [laughter] when he posted our episode with him he's like >> took a cheap shot of the banter about >> and others are like just do the banter like behind the bear rabinet life like you know just go. >> My kids actually look forward to it cuz that they find out a lot of in my head. >> You're so private from your children too. >> Apparently that's what the people have spoken. I'm a private person. Although you used it in a pjorative sense, I'm not sure it's pjorative. Why? Can we ask our listeners, why is it that being a more private person than Rabbi F from Goldberg is a bad thing? I'm not convinced. >> Who said that? That's in your head. >> The tone tonality that you used. >> Was that the tone? >> We're asking our >> ask our [laughter] producer. >> That was the vibe. Okay. All right. Thank I feel validated now. >> You know what I would I think we need to go back and watch. >> Okay. I'm happy. >> If we were actually a little more technologically advanced, I'd be like, "Pull it up right now. Let's watch it." Ben Shapi would do that have like the real ready to go and then >> it if that's the way it came across it's not how it was meant. There are people who are more private, people more public. One is not right or wrong. There's just different personalities. >> Okay. I have a question for you. So I had something this week where [laughter] we had nothing prepared. So something just popped into my head. So I'm going to go with this. >> Yeah. >> Someone this week who a few months ago he Oh, I have one. Yeah. Sorry. >> And I had a little bit of a I want issued perhaps you know it was resolved I thought whatever. Anyways, he came up to me this week and he said, "You know, I just I've been thinking about it a lot and I want to apologize to you again. Just want to make sure, clear the air, we're all good." And I was surprised by that. I said, "I thought we were good like six months ago." He said, "No, I just want to confirm that everything is good." And I actually respected that about him that he came back all these months later just to make sure that it wasn't weighing on the relationship. And not many people would do that. Many people are, you know, we live in a news cycle world where it's like you're on to the next one. And I appreciated that this many months later, it was still on his mind. and he values the relationship and he wanted to come back and have that conversation. >> And was it short, long? Did you revisit it or you just like, "Yeah, we're all good." >> I gave him a hug, but I meant it seriously. In other words, you know me, if I had something to say, I would have said it. But I said, in all honesty, we we had this a number of months ago. We reconciled. We hugged it out then and we hugged again. And I but I appreciated that. You know, I'm always a favor of if there is something on your mind, you're better off speaking it out with someone than holding it in and allowing it to linger. Well, someone spoke what was on their mind when they wrote me an email last week. I don't know if they listen to behind the beam. If they do, they shouldn't feel bad because I happen to be very close with the person. I love the person very much. They love me. And I'm not using that lightly, but they wrote to me. I'm going to leave it neutral. They wrote to me, um, Rabbi, because I love you and feel close to you, I want to let you know that your article is obvious that it's AI. So, you need to mix it up a little bit so it's less obvious. There happens to be there articles I write that I'll write the framework of it. I don't have a lot of time. It's late at night. I write it and then I will I'm not embarrassed, right? >> Not I'm not apologetic. I I'll put an AI and be like, you know, tighten this or how would you improve this? And I think it's a tool. I don't I don't know why that's different than actually the person who helps me edit our fact checker sending to him saying, how would you tighten? What would you improve? They don't write it for me. I don't say like write an article in my voice. I write it and then I use a Titan. What's ironic is that this article came nowhere near AI. I wrote the article. than the person who always looks it over just grammatically spelling make sure that there's no copy errors on it and put it out and so we now this is part of the danger of AI is that the assumption the environment of skepticism >> the fault is that it's >> the fault is and I wonder whether we should all actually put an asterk under our writings under our images under our flyers under our everything to be like with the assistance of AI or AI had nothing to do with this because otherwise it's an upside down inside out world that you have no idea Your your wife could give you a card for your anniversary and you have no idea. Did that come from her heart or did she put it into Chachi BT and be like, you know, my husband, what would be a beautiful card, write it for me, print it out, get it done, >> right? Or what got caught out of an episode perhaps? I asked a question and someone here in the studio with us accused me of using the question from AI and I didn't. And part of the reason why it bothered me so much is exactly what you were referring to. I I don't know who would have my right would have said something. But part of what bothered me in in tune bothered you about the email you received is as you said like the default is suspicion. Anything you and I put out now did the rabbis use it? It's a little too smart for you know Rabbi Mosids. He wouldn't usually write that way and now it's like in your head when you're writing an article you're almost writing in a way to not make it look like AI could ever have written it because you don't want to be suspected by it. But it but that's like as you said a topsyturvy upside down world because you do have people you have people that never wrote a clear sentence in their life and all of a sudden are writing a waxing poetic. We have friends like that and that's fine. That's beautiful. And if they're using AI that way, God bless. >> There are some telltale signs. It's kind of fun when you're a reader. >> Long dash. But not only that, >> there's a cadence. >> There's there's a cadence. There's short senses. There's contrast between the two. There's a poetry. You could like you just said somebody who never ever spoke like that in their life or wrote like that all of a sudden is I guess what I'm calling for is I wonder I'm posing it as a question everybody can weigh in the comments should we have AI transparency whatever field of work you're in even to each other that says you know what I wrote you a poem for your birthday let you know I had the prompts I had to know you I had to tell it what to do AI helped me write this poem >> yeah let me know how that >> AI helped me AI helped me write this song I helped make make this flyer now again we can see flyers and they're obvious when they're AI but It's only going to improve better and better which case it's like more and more I think there should like I would never hesitate for the last number of years when I've written articles to have said that my brother-in-law who's fantastic at this helps me every week bang out my article send it to him he redlines it I accept or reject changes 99% I accept all the changes you know they're >> I don't even look at them I just write >> yeah and then whatever because it's so I I and I've never hidden that and I would never hide that or apologize or be defensive of it I think any good writer should have an editor who helps them so if AI is functioning as your editor. I don't think you should be apologetic. So anyway, but it it got me thinking and again the person who wrote me the email did it out of love and means well happens to have been dead wrong and happens to have gotten in my head. Again, no offense, don't apologize or do anything wrong if you want to drop off a nice scotch, but don't feel bad about it. But >> to both rabbis, >> don't feel bad about it. But but it got me thinking again about this like transparency about it. Not you get up at the beginning of drusha and you're like this was we debated this. We have something in BRS called off the record after Shalon Chavez Morning. You and I sit around and we debate topics point counterpoint and people get involved in it. One of the topics, >> not me and you, the everyone there debates. >> We feed the debate though. One of the debates was about AI and you and I were deeply troubled when the conversation came up of would it bother you if your rabbi wrote the drussia through AI. In other words, let's say we told you this morning that the druss go just gave was written by AI, >> right? >> And nobody raised their hand. In fact, people said, "I don't care as long as it's a good drussia and it's delivered powerfully and you move me emotionally and intellectually. I don't care if AI wrote it." And you and I looked at each other so depressed and despondent because that that >> we we pride ourselves. >> I've actually come a long way since then. Have you? >> Yeah. Having used AI a lot more and really trying to adopt it in appropriate ways and with boundaries. Um I do because I think it again you've got to still come up with the idea and give it the prompts and and put it together and at the end of the day the drussia hopefully you're delivering in a way that comes from your heart. There's a person or personal voice to it. This is the complicated part about it. How is it different? >> You don't think that's a slippery slope? >> How is it different than a president having a speech writer now because the community doesn't think that the rabbi has a speech writer? Correct. That's why. And if you're using AI as your speech writer then get out of the rabbit. >> Is it also that Torah is different? It's one thing President Trump has got to give 15 speeches a day. Everyone understands there's no way you can do that. When you and I give up a speech, get up there and give a speech, we're not just giving over information. We're giving over Torah, which is, as we've spoken about last week, based on a misora, there's an emotional connection to it. It feels very different if AI is involved in that in a very very dangerous way to our misora. In other words, to to what how Torah was meant to be transmitted. the the people it's complicated and as it's evolving and developing I think we just need to do it mindfully and with guard rails and with some boundaries and with thoughtfulness and I guess >> but who imposes the boundaries because it's self-imposed >> we could do it collectively and the last word which I hadn't thought of until that email is and with transparency meaning don't use it in a way you'd be embarrassed to admit you use it I guess that's kind of one of my rules now >> so you so if you're saying if I would get up on job this morning and announce this drawer was written by I and that would embarrass Right? So if it's run if it's your speech writer and it wrote the whole thing don't if you say I wrote a drussia and then I put it in I say how could you condense this? How could you tighten it? How could you help me with a better ending? I wouldn't be embarrassed to do that. I would be embarrassed to say it wrote a speech for me. Similarly like I would be embarrassed to tell my wife AI wrote you this anniversary card. But I wouldn't be embarrassed to say that when someone asked me for a recommendation and I just used AI because it was a much more efficient way to do it. I wouldn't be embarrassed to say, "Ai, help me bang out this recommendation." >> Would you would it bother you if you're gonna go on a summer vacation this summer? I assume at some point if you go on a summer vacation, you're sitting in the back of the shaw like a regular Jew and you see the rabbi get up there and it is clear as day to you that this was written by AI. >> It bothers you that he doesn't admit it or it bothers you that you're sitting and listening to a dr that was written by AI. >> Um, it depends how good the dress is. That's what the people were telling us was if you moved me, if you inspired me, if you made me think, if you challenged me, if you tugged on my heartstrings, I don't know if I care who wrote it. You accomplished all those goals, which are good goals. I don't know that I that I care. So, if if it's like if you wrote it yourself and it's horrible, I don't want to hear it. If AI helped you with it and it's amazing and it moved me and maybe I'm going to borrow some of it another time, then that's fantastic again. But but I don't what what I'm calling for. >> I understand. >> Mark your calendars. I'm calling for this today. I don't know if I'm calling for I'm sharing and thinking out loud is just don't do things that you wouldn't want to admit. Transparency. If you're if you're using it in a way that you'll be transparent about, use it. If you're using it in a way that you would hide, be embarrassed, defensive, wouldn't want others to know, then ask yourself, should you be using it in that way? There's an element of >> denies that you are miles ahead of many rabbis on this in this discussion. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I don't think Yeah. That's just my it's my my element to it. Like you're people are making an assumption about what you did and you're not being truthful about >> which is why it bothered you so much someone accused you of it because you put your effort and soul into something. It was your craft work and someone accused you of just copying AI. >> But if you're suspect of doing that every time you give a drussia, it will bother you more than I think you admit to it right now. >> Yeah, it might. It might. But again, you know, I that's why I think we like we should share at some point. think there should be an asterct in all that we do, how we use AI and in what way we use it and what it contributed. And I'll say it again, if you don't if if you're using it in a way that you would be embarrassed or wouldn't want people to know everything about work. I was recently asked for a Jewish publication and like an ask the rabbi um somebody applied for a job, they didn't misre misrepresent their skills, but the employee employer made assumptions they had more skills than they do. Do they have to correct the employer? And I looked into it's there's all kinds of postkim and and the answer is clearly if they're hiring you with the assumption that you have a skill set you don't you must disclose them that you don't because if they would later find out you don't and and they hired you and they'd be upset about it and rightfully so then you should disclose it now. That's clearly the so if you're using AI in way that you wouldn't disclose and you're misrepresenting and you're presenting something as your own when it's not there's questions involved in that. you know, you're being hired for a skill set you don't have. You should, we had a meeting this week, which is fantastic, and then we should really get to Rab Dashes with somebody who in their own business has gone from 17 to two employees because essentially AI, which is a whole ethical question, >> like the industrial staff. >> Yeah. No. And we we want to look at everything we do. The old days where it was like we're understaffed, we can't afford, we really need more in this department, that department admin. And now AI agents in particular, all of a sudden it's like you have unlimited staff, right? If you know how to use them and code them and use agents for admin jobs, I'm not talking about people jobs. You have almost unlimited staff. Unlimited. You just have to have the creativity to know what to have an agent, what do you automate, what's replicable, what do you do, >> and the willingness to learn. >> And the person who shared it with us would not be embarrassed whatsoever about the ways that he uses it in his accounting, in his marketing, advertising, in his graphic design, in his He wouldn't. That's my point. If you're embracing AI, only embrace it in the things that you'd be >> transparent. Just to play the other side, in all of those, they're they're tasks, right? >> He's having AI replace tasks. There's something about creativity >> that bothers me when people use if we were to use AI. When when when you're projecting your creative nature and you're putting your heart and soul, that's when it >> the line gets like a little bit more blurred. I understand AI wants to take over reconciling accounts with making a P&L. Okay. But you but you could admit that here too, right? I was talking to somebody who used to work at a it was a senior executive at a major at a major bank >> and apparently they had on their staff speech writers like when when senior executives made presentations, you would sit with meet with them. You know, you tell them these are the points I want to make. This is what I get want to get across. This is what I want to achieve. And they would be like now draft me something because I have other ways to spend my time that are more valuable to to the bank. You don't think it if AI is serving as that for you. But again, I think that person would have no problem admitting, right? I gave the prompts. I had a speech writing team. They gave me the draft. I tweaked it. I made it my own. And now I'm giving you that. If you wouldn't admit it, if you'd apologize, if you'd hide it, then don't do it because you're misrepresenting. If you'd be willing to admit it, I guess we agree because again, I use it as an editing tool also, >> but we all agree that there's a point where it becomes a very dangerous slippery slope. And the question is, are we transparent about that? And is there like a uniformity to it? because you and I or a different rabbi might define that differently and therefore use it in a way that you might not be comfortable >> forget the rabbit lawyers doctors >> all other professions if you're using an AI that you say it's enhancing the skills I bring making me more efficient more productive making me better at what I do and I would admit that to anyone anywhere great use it in that way if you're using it to compensate and pretend for skills you don't have in a way that you would pretend they're yours and it's doing it I don't know >> which is the limus test you and I usually use here in the Whenever there's a >> if if we could defend it, if we would get up at a board meeting without any shame whatsoever and announce it, then it's something that you can do. If you'd have any sense of shame or embarrassment to admit publicly, you probably shouldn't be doing it. >> Yep. And with that, Ra Dashesky who great conversation. It's I I haven't stopped thinking about it since in terms of how we can actually execute manifest it in the shul creating these relationships, these connections, these vulnerability opportunities um in a way that as you'll hear about is really very healthy. and what's been very much >> and what it means for your relationship with Hashem which I think is ultimately the the point he was with each other with ourselves that because that's I think the hardest part >> absolutely without any further ado our friend Rabbi Danvski welcome back behind the beimma we have the great privilege of spending time going behind the bea was Danvski author attached attached haga and great thinker Jewish thought and clinical social worker >> pimeatra pimeia satira and uh somebody works in the space of sexual addiction which maybe we'll get into today as well. So much to talk about and catch up. Welcome back to Bokeh here earlier this year before PES with >> introducing the Hagada which was incredibly wellreceived. So it's good to have you back. >> Thank you. Thank you. I saw you included some of the Hagada in the Shabas address. >> I did. I did. I I very much connect to um your approach or just in general. I've always connected to the connect the association of Torah and psychology, human insight. Um and there's a lot to learn from it. So I'm not afraid of it and I love that how God does that. >> Yeah, it's great to be here. >> So tell us what um attached attached what are most people missing that if they knew this about themselves they could live much healthier, happier lives. >> That's a big question. I'm sure answer [laughter] right there. >> How do you start answering that? I I I to me what it feels like many of us are struggling with or maybe missing is connection is relationships and relationships for relationships sake. I think there's a lot of pursuit of different accomplishments and productivity. And we live in a culture that in one way or another, maybe it's material, maybe it's spiritual, but there's a lot of focus on getting something. And even if it'sual and yeah, it's transactional, it's utilitarian, it's to accomplish something. And sometimes those accomplishments are are very noble, you know, and and very virtuous and and very good. But I think that at the essence of what it means to really live the life we're in this world for and the essence of what it means to to be able to thrive as a human is to really be focused more on the experience of relationship of connection between people and between humans and God. So trying to reintroduce that you know to the best of my ability in different ways to our world to myself to people I know and to society. So the whole orientation or focus is on connection in the three relationships with God, with others and with ourselves. >> Um what are the obstacles? What are the barriers? What are the kipas? What's what's holding people back from that connection? What are they protecting themselves? How are they protecting? What's what's getting in the way? >> A lot of a lot of different things could be could be in the way. Uh so it's hard to hard to say specifically. I would say I think the the biggest one is just that it's a foreign concept. So before getting into anything even deep, just on the simplest level, it's just a foreign concept. It's not what most people's experience in this world has centered around. Like I was trying to say before, our whole construct of education and communities and is so revolving around what it means to be successful is to be productive. And that that's a good thing. There's a place for that. I'm obviously not throwing that out, but it's a different it's a different language. It's a different way of thinking to be living through the lens of relationship than the lens of productivity. So, can we drill a little deeper because you're talking about relationships. I think most people would listen say, "I have relationships. I have relationship with a spouse, with a child, with a parent. I have a relationship with friends." You're obviously saying there's something missing even from the relationships that we currently have that if we were to dig deeper, we would be able to reap much stronger and more beautiful benefits. Yeah, I I would say two things. I would say in my experience, uh I actually think there's a lot of people that don't fall in the category you're saying. I wish I wish that was the case, >> but I could say in my >> you were just asking me how old I am before we uh started recording, so I'm I'm not so old, but in my few years of of limited experience of of having the opportunity to go to different communities and speak, I I laugh I I've I've come to a point that I find it comical that I fall into the same the same trap every time I get somewhere. And you know, I know I know my home community pretty well and I work as a therapist, so I really know it pretty well in a certain way from behind the scenes. And there's a lot of people who have a lot of a lot of challenges and a lot of struggle. There's a lot of beautiful things and a lot of good things, but there's there's a fair share of of difficulties. So sometimes I think, you know, is that just where I live, you know, and I go somewhere as a speaker, you know, I'm brought in for a shabas or to give a a talk somewhere and I get there and everybody seems so nice and people walk up with their families and it seems like and and I start thinking and this happens to me over and over again. I start thinking, yeah, maybe it is just where I live. [laughter] like here everybody seems they seems like they figured out maybe this is just where I live and then what happens time and again is that as I spend more time there I'm there for a few hours I'm there for a weekend people start coming over to ask me about something and I'm usually speaking about something that has to do with Torah and psychology and relationships so people know this is what I talk about or what I do so they start opening up and they start sharing what's going on in their life and by the end of the weekend I realized that hey guess what this community is just like my community and guess what this next one is also just like mine. And and it's all the same. And there are so so so many people who don't even fall into the category of what of what you're bringing up. What you're bringing up is also true. But there are so many people who don't even fall into that. People who whose basic relationships, their marriage, their relationship with their kids, their relationship with their family of origin, their relationship with themsel, their relationship with God, their relationship with friends is is really lacking in a in a profound profound way. And then there's what you're describing, which is people who would say, "I have I have friends, I have family, I have decent, good relationships." Uh, but there might be something uh still that that that could be deeper there. But I'm not I'm not trying to suggest this as a way of criticizing any relationship that a person does have. I'm not trying to say you think your relationship's good and it's not good. If you think your relationship is good, you know, great. But but in my experience, it seems like a lot of people are really uh either th e either consciously thirsting for something or have kind of [snorts] like turned off that conscious thirst and are struggling in ways that they might not know why. >> So let let me ask you two questions that overlap, but I do acknowledge that they're too. It's interesting when when you spoke before Pesak, you know, there's a beautiful crowd. Um largely young people, a lot of young people and I think your I know my own children. Um but your farm your books they appeal to young people. I don't know in particular but I know certainly young people and now I'm understanding a little bit more why because this message is of this generation. We we've this year not in by we haven't done it by design. We don't have themes or it just kind of happened. We've had a lot of conversations that seat that you're sitting and we've referenced it recently. You know we just had him guri and got great feedback on that conversation. But we've had kaishan cast and and center and and just a whole bunch of educators or people who work in psychology. We recently bench and and we've been having this conversation about this generation, >> right? The best way to put it is are much more in touch with their feelings. They're much more honest and authentic. They live off of validation and being seen relationships. And then you have another perspective which might have been the older generation or still those holding on today who say expectations actions like what there's there's deliverables like this is what Hashem expects of us. This is what we expect from one another. It's what we need to deliver. This is the plan. This is right. So in certain yeshivas or circles the word plan is a a a word you can't use. And in other circles it's like you need a plan otherwise don't don't come and don't show up. So that focus and emphasis on connection and relationships rather than productivity. Do we worry that if to the extreme and obviously you'll say it shouldn't be and the balance but someone will say you know we also have among young people this challenge of in some cases a failure to launch a lot of people who are not productive >> and not driven and don't have ambition >> because my relationships man like I'm connected and I'm really connected and I'm present and I'm connected and I'm just free flow and I just do and I'm with myself in the moment or with God or with the people. So too much emphasis or focus on connection and too little on productivity. Do we run that risk of a of a generation or of a segment of it who will have a failure to launch because they're not focused on what they need to do with those with those connections and and then the correlary of it and you can ask answer it separately. Sorry question. >> Yeah. [laughter] No no so that's only one part. I was setting up the question then the first part now B the B part of the connection also I don't want to bias you which direction we lean from the conversations we've had but when it's all about connection relationships you also sometimes erase what should be all relationships then seem equal and the same so young people might think I'm as much of an authority as my parent as my rebby as my teacher as an older person like it's relationships it's my story I should be validated my perspective my opinion the way I see it I'm connected to to me, you be you. I'm connected to me. And we've sort of blurred all this notion of what what are important hierarchies, not from a superiority standpoint, but from a respect for elders, respect for parents, respect for Rabanim. So that focus on relationships. How do we maintain the hierarchy with them? >> Sure. >> Admittedly, two questions. >> Yeah. Yeah. But connected. But I think very connected because what I would say is that to me I think there might be a unfortunate you could say conflating or or mixing up of what it means to focus on relationships versus self-absorption and maybe some sort of pseudo uh narcissism uh which uh I would be wary of because I don't really my my real response is I don't relate to the to the binary that the question is assuming because a real relationship involves doing things any any real relationship. So relationship doesn't mean that I feel connected part of relationship means that I feel connected but a relationship in which I only feel connected is is going to be a very partial experience of relationship. I can feel very connected to somebody, but if I don't ever talk to them, if I don't ask them questions about who they are, if I don't do things for them, if I don't create opportunities to spend time with them, for them to do things for me, to receive what they give me, to acknowledge what they do for me, you know, etc., then that's not really a relationship. So, in my mind, it's not it's the the the mistake is that we frame it as is it about relationship or is it about doing? In my mind, that's a mistake. It's all about relationship. the purpose of Judaism is to have a relationship with God. >> The only reason I thought of that was because you set it up as connection versus productivity. So that's what made me think. >> Okay. So, but I but I think the the the question that you're asking is a question people, you know, people say that kind of thing all the time. And I think the the the idea is that within relationship there is productivity, there is doing, there is action. Without it, the relationship is fundamentally missing. So I was about to say is, you know, Judaism is about relationship with God. It's not that Judaism is about relationship with God and also it's about hala. This is the mistake that I think people make all the time. Meaning even people who are starting to understand that [clears throat] Judaism is about relationship. The way they frame it is Judaism is about relationship and it's about learning or it's about learning and it's about relationship or it's about learn you know it's about hala and misora and it's about relationship. That's all a mistake. It's better than maybe some other things but it's all a mistake. Judaism is actually about one thing relationship with God. Now within relationship with God, you can only have that if you have hala and misora and learning and dabbing etc. If I told my wife I love her but I don't do anything for her. I don't take out the garbage. She'd say like that's very cute but right you have to do stuff for me to prove that relationship. >> Exactly. Right. And and and that's exactly what I mean. It's it's there's no binary. Right. The the performance and and doing and activity is all within the context of relationship. That that is what a relationship is. >> So what's the impediment to that? Obviously, our interpersonal relationships therefore become a metaphor or a platform for us to work on that relationship with Hashem, which is the ultimate goal. What's the impediment? Is the impediment in that I don't sit down with people enough and really ask them how they're feeling and and and get into the inards because I'm always productive and my mind is always racing to the next thing. Is the impediment that I haven't done the work on myself? Knows I can't have a relationship with someone else until I know myself and my strengths and my weaknesses, my vulnerabilities. and only once I know that can I really enter into an open relationship to another person. What's holding us back from that? Is it a societal thing? Is it a thing that we're just not willing to put in the hard work? What's what's the impediment there? >> I think all the above. Um I I don't think it's so much the people not being willing to put in the hard work necessarily. think there's a lot of there's a lot of builtin uh kind of unconscious defense mechanisms to vulnerability that people are living with because all of this is so foreign and we're living I think we are I know this is probably another uh another topic that would take us on a whole uh tangent of if I say the word trauma you know so I don't want to you know I don't want to overuse that word but I think we're largely living in a it's what you said before right the the previous generation uh had a tremendous strength of uh of doing and they needed to in post in post-traumatic uh in and I don't mean individual traumas but in in a post-traumatic world uh they there was a there was a real emphasis on building and doing and productivity and not productivity in the context of relationship right that's what I right the productivity just as productivity so when people don't grow up with relationship ship when it's not the culture. And I don't mean this in the classical trope of like therapists blaming parents because I don't mean it about I don't mean it on a micro level. I mean it on a macro level, right? So when when you don't have that, you just kind of turn the whole system off and you put up all sorts of defenses to not go into that neighborhood, right? It's it's like if you live in a certain, you know, town and there's a certain area in the town that's a dangerous part of town, you just you don't go there. So there's just this part of ourselves that most people don't have any any knowledge of or any it's just it's a foreign language. And to deal with the fact that this fundamental part of us is still a foreign language, there's all sorts of blocks and and and and defenses and bypasses that we that we put up. So, so I really want to get back to your life and how you got into this, but I I was actually just talking to my wife today and we were talking about therapy, different modalities of therapy. I had a different meeting earlier today with someone was sharing with me psychedelics and certain therapies and and how useful it is. Um, and and I'm a believer, but but prepared to be wrong. um that therapy is useful for a person who something is interfering with their life. But if they're generally functional and generally happy and generally healthy, then in fact going to some of those places can actually interfere um and set them back and bring things to the surface which it's not necessarily ever good for it to be suppressed, but it's also not necessarily good to be relived. What's your opinion on that? Because on the one hand this notion it's really if we lack the vocabulary we need the coach the teacher the therapist somebody who's going to introduce the vocabulary help us discover in the IFS model right our different parts in oursel and the conversation with our parts so you need that but on the other hand if a person generally is functional happy healthy relationships dynamic religious experience um and now and now they might discover histories traumas micro traumas bigger traumas and now it's going to interfere with their life. >> Is therapy for everybody or only the people who need it? >> Well, I would I think I would back up the question because I would say I would say, you know, why does that person who, as you're describing, everything is is good. Everything's healthy and functional. It's all good. So, why is he asking if he should go to therapy? >> He may not. I'm asking you hypothetically. I spoke to somebody who benefits enormously from therapy and they prostitute therapy. It's amazing. I've discovered it. Sh. Everyone needs to be in therapy. And that made me pause. Everyone. >> So I mean that that kind of, you know, thinking and speaking I would certainly not align with, right? And you know that everyone needs anything that to me is automatically going to be uh you know subject to to skepticism for me. But but I but what I thought your question was I think is still significant because you could imagine someone to me that that guy no offense to whoever that is. I would write that off. But but the guy who's coming and saying you know should I be going to therapy you know and you say well what for and he says well nothing really things are good so I would be curious to ask him well then then why do you want to go to therapy so I'll give you an example to what I mean why I think this is significant so a couple years ago my wife and I were uh thinking about moving to Terrell and we uh we have a close relationship with Arjuna Michelle and we were on a pilot trip to look at schools etc and we the the the challenge for us was we have this real burning desire to live in Israel. On the other hand, our lives bar hashem where we are are very good. So it's like do we uproot what's very good like everything seems and this is the way we we we framed the question tour of Judah was like everything's everything's good and we kept saying that everything's good like our our lives are so fortunate thank god >> so do we undo that to come here for this and and he said if everything is so good why are you here asking me this question so there doesn't have to be something wrong for there to be something wrong the guy asking, "Should I go to therapy?" I'd be curious why he's asking if everything's good. Because a lot of people can feel like everything in their life is good, but something's wrong. >> Got it. So, tell me >> because something's missing. Some There's something missing. >> Whatever stimulated the question is revealing that something was missing. >> Now, it could just be because someone planted in his head, you know, you should go to and and then in that case, who cares? But if he's really asking the question, I would be curious because in an existential lack, a lack of of feeling fulfilled in some way, >> nothing's wrong. And actually everything is wrong because the container is is flawed. >> A lot of questions also but >> should we go back and and just you grew up in Teneber and >> before that I didn't know if you >> my biography is not so interesting. >> Let's talk we're like a married couple. We just dwell on what's wrong for a second where everything seems right but yet something can be wrong. >> We're in the most progressed society in world history. We're the most affluent society in world history, the most knowledgeable, technologically advanced. Like on paper, everything should be going right for society now. And yet, as you know very well, we have a crisis of loneliness, of anxiety, of mental health, of depression, of people who are that feel that existential loneliness. So what is missing, right? the fact that Goldberg described that young people primarily are coming to your classes and seminary girls, you know, what are they craving that they're finding in what you're giving over or that's missing from the rest of society >> that they haven't found until >> that they haven't found until now. >> I don't think we're the most progressed society. All the other things you described about us are true. I don't think we're the most progressed society. I think we've regressed in many ways because we forgot about the art of relationships. And I don't think of myself and the work that I what I write, what I speak. You're asking why people come. I I don't know. We'd have to ask them why they come. But I don't think of myself as a as a motivational speaker or as an inspirational speaker. Uh I mean, maybe some of it is motivating, some of it is inspiring, but I I really don't don't care for that so much. It's about relationships. It's not about finding your purpose. It's not about, you know, that you can do anything you set your mind to. There's a lot of things you could set your mind to that you can't do, actually. You know, uh it's I think what people really want is not the feel-good fluffy stuff. That's the mistake. It's our generation is not craving feelood stuff. Our generation is relationships are not always feel good. Relationships are are real. Relationships are hard. Relationships don't always feel good. What our rel what what people are craving and wanting is is is the rawness of being a being a human being. The rawness of being a human being which means that things are not it's not all feel good. And it's about I want to live life in a shared experience with another person and with with a being beyond beyond this world who's in this world. I want I want to experience my experience in a way that it's not it's not alone. That to me is more important than I want to be told that I can do anything I set my mind to and that I'm amazing and that I'm one in a million and I can change the world. These things are not those things aren't real. I don't I don't know that you're going to change the world. But I do think that you can live in a simple small house and and have a relationship with somebody that actually matters in a way that because because you come home from working a regular simple job and being able to put food on the table and you can come home and sit down with a bowl of soup and and and and look at another person and have a conversation about your day. >> That that's that's what people are missing. >> Maybe what we're we're not missing, but maybe you could help us unpack further is just the word relationship. Because people have that, right? In theory, they're texting all day. They're responding. People don't have what I just described. >> No, I No, I understand. But, but they might even come home and we just did this technology challenge. They might even come home and leave their phone in another room and have dinner, but they still may not have the relationship because there's something about it like right when when Mish comes every year. He'll talk all about being real, being authentic, being honest, being raw. Like some of the words you were using, there's a lot of performative a lot of performance. A lot of people are wearing body armor. A lot of people are performing to the way they think society wants them to be. Maybe we'll get into this issue with the addiction that you specialize in. and and and men in particular though I know it's not exclusively men but some of the loneliness and the shame and the numbing and the performing and the feeling they need to be this for the world. So when you say relationship or if you had to write now tell the people watching and listening tell us >> today do this to have better more real relationships what is the word relationship >> in the context that I'm using it what I mean is that there's somebody that I live my life in a shared experience with that I feel that I have a companion somebody that I know and they know me and that I invest in that experience of knowing them and being known by them in that we walk through life together. >> So how would how would a single person receive what you just described? Could they have that too? >> They can have that too. Uh I would say sadly they might not have it to the to the same degree or the same extent. That's a I mean that's a reality. Marriage is something that's not replicable. Marriage is something that's not replic replic replicable. But uh a single person could have that with other relationships. They can't have that, but they can have relationship with other people. >> And how many of these relationships, it's not interrogation. I'm really learning. I'm really learning. How many of these relationships >> um should a person seek? Are there too many? >> Can there be too many that I'm so connected, shared experience, vulnerable, confiding, present with too many people. So, it takes away the intimacy of the ones I have it with. >> I think so. I think there can be. Yeah. >> What's the magic number? >> How many are we looking for? Well, for the type of relationship I'm describing in a marriage, the answer would be one. >> Right. Right. >> And with God, it would be one, >> right? And then with So there there's layers or levels of relationships. >> Yeah. >> There's the one with God and there's the exclusivity of marriage and then there could be friends in which you have a few, but there's the closest friends and then there's acquaintances. >> Now, we talk about this a lot, so this is more of a setup to you, but obviously the relationship between a husband and wife or a parent and a child and Hashem is very different, right? In one, you're getting immediate feedback. If the relationship is broken, you sit down with someone, you repair it. There's complexity to it that you're aware of and it's kind of a two-way. It's more of an overt-sided street. Obviously, with Hashem, it's it's much more complicated for people. You're davening and you hope you're getting answered, but you're not really sure and you're looking for signs and the little kisses and notes that Goldberg speaks about and you get little like tidbits along the way, but it's a very, very different relationship. So how do you translate the work you would do in like a human relationship to the ultimate relationship which is to be able to connect with Hashem who's going to guide you at every aspect of your life even more than any human being would ever be able to. >> So I I actually think that the more that a person experiences relationship in in less of a what was the word you used at the beginning when I was describing in less of trans less of a transactional way. The more that a person experiences human relationships in a less transactional way, the more that they will not have that question. I think it's when a person experiences human relationships transactionally that they have that problem. Because when my human relationships are transactional, then I don't have the experience of knowing what it means to just express myself to someone and that that's inherently valuable. The experience of expressing myself to somebody is only valuable in as much as it gets me a certain response from them in terms of them doing something for me. And therefore when I go to let's say is like the example you're bringing up. So I speak to God but I don't have that answer in a clear way. And so then what people look for is okay but can I find you know God winking at me somewhere and something but that's not really what it is. If I have the human experience of what it means to actually just talk to somebody for the sake of connecting with them, I think people who do that actually don't struggle with doining. I think people who do I don't mean that they have an amazing show yesterday every time they do obviously but I don't think those people struggle with domining. I think the people who have relationships with other people that are relationship for the sake of relationship, they experience the experience of having relationship with God from talking to him and from learning Torah and from what a yontiff is quality time, whatever whatever it might be. And and and that's enough because because nothing could be more than that, right? Um, I I I think there's a a big mistake that we we talk about the world of relationships and then the world of Judaism as two conversations. They are in my mind the exact same conversation. It's one conversation. And when a person works on the aspects of bettering themsel in one of those ways, it it it flows directly to the other one. >> So, let's let's spend one minute on your background. >> Tak Bergenfield. I asked you your age before we started because for some reason I thought we were closer in age, but we're definitely not. Um, but we did grow up in the same neighborhood and and families overlapped. So, but you weren't necessarily on the path of having a long beard and long pay and focus on pimia sata. Not that >> our community was amazing, but I I don't know that we would say that it put us on that path. So, how did you get here? How did you get into social work? And how did you get into your specialty in the work that you do? >> All pretty much accidental. Uh I was on the regular kind of let's call it TK Bergenfield uh path uh MTA and then Shalavim for a couple years or Vilson's for year I guess I took one interesting detour into for Eman and then went to Yu uh and all of that was kind of fairly typical except that for me kind of started in an interesting way. So in Shalim, I guess shout out to Shalim. I uh what I really appreciated, what I really appreciated and still do about Shalim is it's a very balanced kind of wholesome uh hashkafa and and a and form of hashem. So there was no specific emphasis on at all per se, but there was just kind of a builtin balance of of you know typical yeshiva gumar learning for the majority of the day. But there was a warmth and there was a a a feeling and there was a depth and it was but none of it was overt and none of it was specific. It was just kind of baked into the cake. So I I appreciated that because I did well with that well-rounded uh recipe. When I went to this uh yeshiva afterwards uh the the approach was quite different. It was uh let's call it uh brisker to the to the extreme if that I don't know if that's the right term to it but but uh you know put it but at the shabas sudas uh you couldn't say dvartora the the shabas suda dvarto was that somebody could stand up read a ramban and sit down so just to paint the picture there was a lot of I I gained a lot tremendously from it but it was it was lacking in uh the the well-roundedness that I had done well with and so yeshiva was inmate Shim and I went to a used bookstore, used farm store just like during a break one day and uh happened upon Luos of Urban Aman and didn't really know what it was didn't but I had heard of Akman and it was like five shekel so I bought it and uh started learning it and it was it was almost because there was such a scarcity of anything other than Gamara that I almost needed to find something from a totally different source and took to it at first just a little bit. It was nothing nothing major. And then the truth is when I was in YU, I actually was drawn to a lot of the academic uh study ofos and Cabala. Uh so I was like taking those classes and Revel and etc. But then I also got introduced to Mosha Weinberger which is uh kind of where it really then started picking up momentum for me. At first like a follower from afar. Uh but then uh when I was in SMH in YU was during the short period where Weinberger was actually in YU twice a week, two days a week or whatever it was and I started to get to know him more personally and began building a relationship and and then it and I started learning more and more of more intentionally learning and it just started building momentum and then a year uh a little bit later when I was in Gross for the year uh I stumbled upon Ricar Morgan Stern and uh that kind of clicked things into like the next level like the next gear just the first second I saw his face it was like a different experience of life for me and uh so things kind of there's nothing I don't have any interesting story it's uh that's why I always say my biography is not uh not the part to focus on a million just kind of >> everybody's an interesting story [laughter] >> we just want a connection with you >> yeah exactly exactly >> but and social work and why this area of social work >> also an accident um I had planned on becoming a pulpit rabbi and uh and sitting among uh in company of the of the best out there and uh one different roadblock after like twists and turns and things just kind of weren't uh going the way that I had envisioned them going and then I applied to actually pursue a PhD in in in Jewish philosophy and I was living in Chicago at the time so University of Chicago. I thought I was in I was told I was in and then I got a rejection letter out of nowhere in the mail and I had no idea what I was doing next. and uh sitting on the floor eating a lot of ice cream. I decided to go to social work school online and I will say here's here's this is maybe interesting. Uh I remember my first session ever with a client still as an intern. I sat down in the therapist chair and I remember in that session having a feeling that I'm I'm home like this. I have never felt a sense of belonging as much as I do in this moment sitting here and doing doing this work. I had spoken from the p this for me and here's what's interesting is years later I actually found my eighth grade yearbook from Mariah uh elementary school Mariah School of Englewood and uh in my yearbook they had a section of everyone saying what they think they'll be in 20 years. I had completely forgot about this but my eighth grade self wrote a psychologist >> and as an adult I never I never planned to be a psychologist. It was an accident. >> Mine most certainly did not say rabbi. I don't know about yours. I don't think they asked that. Um, it's an interesting thing and it's an important thing to point out. Hashem closed one door but because he was opening another and when you sat there with the ice cream and it felt like the world came crashing down and the plans were shattered >> sometimes like just be patient. Hashem is just redirecting us from one place to the other. >> And he's actually directing us back to our childhood self who knew all along what I was supposed to be. That's what I find so uh so interesting about the story. >> Yeah. And the fact that you shared that freely, you know, like my cousin Dvashkin made it okay and popular to talk about failure and Yes. But >> you were [clears throat] cousins. That's right. >> But you you you shared that so like once upon a time maybe my generation since we've established I'm so much older than you, right? People wouldn't they would suppress or bury or certainly wouldn't mention out loud. Yeah. And then I was rejected. Um and yet you were comfortable doing that. >> Yes. Yeah. Yeah. David likes talking about his being rejected from the Wexner Fellowship, which I did get into. >> Ah, okay. Good. Now we made up. >> If uh let's play hypothetical, but I think it'll bring out some important ideas. If uh the Bal Shamtov >> Rabin and choose the greatest attachment therapy guru in the world were sitting together at a table, what would they agree on and what would they perhaps view differently from one another? >> Oh wow, that's a great question. >> That's an AI question. >> I don't What are you talking about? >> I didn't say you're wrong to use. That's a good one. >> That's a big call. >> That's the be No, because it's the beauty. Listen, you're not embarrassed to say failure. I want to say right now I am start with judiciousness and discernment and care and not replacing writing drushes and >> why can't but why can't that be his brilliant question? >> Why can't that be my I'm curious. Maybe it was my maybe it was Marus's [laughter] question. >> It's a great question. I'm just saying >> maybe someone you think it was question. No, the truth is there's a lot of evidence now that it is your question because if we're AI, you would have known who the attachment therapist is. But then maybe you left that out because you're trying to throw us off. >> Can we just get to the You don't have to answer the question. I'm just That's a great question. >> It's a great question. >> Well, thanks for making me feel bad about it. >> No, it's a great one. I'm complimenting you. Well, the natural thought might be that that you know the the attachment theorists wouldn't put the focus on God and obviously you know for us we would but it's actually not true. Uh I think that many of the attachment theorists uh did understand attachment theory relating to to God as well. So where would the differences lie >> to give that one more thought? I want to think about that seriously. Okay. I mean, I'm gonna go put it into AI after this and [laughter] see what they answer because my friend over here >> I'm admiring you. >> Okay. Well, you know what? You have a funny >> It's a compliment. I'm sorry. >> You're good. >> Me. I mean, there's there's there's so many things that are that would of course be brought into the world by by Torah. And let's say you want to specifically highlight the Bashto. >> Let me let me sorry to help you out a little bit. Yeah. And and to show that I didn't put this into AI. What I'm really asking is is that years before psychology developed these ideas, the baltovn the the greats of who understood things about the human psyche, about mental health, about talks about depression a lot like they understood things that were well before their time to my understanding in psychology and psychology is now catching up in terms of language and so I'm curious where do they intersect in a healthy way and where has popular modern psych ology taken it in a perhaps unhealthy way. >> Like even I'll give you an example like sin >> which factors in so much in and so prevalently into Judaism. Um you know I read a whole article last year of a woman a psychologist who said she's raising her child without using the word sin in their in their house because she thinks it's a dirty word and she wants to never make her child feel sinful. I don't know that Rabin Aman or the Balsham would agree with that. I don't think Kazal would agree with that. Like we believe there's a healthy relationship with sin. So I guess that was like the genesis of the question of both acknowledging that our great rabbis specifically were really in tune psychologically far beyond far before their time >> and now that we've kind of intersected the two where do they go together and where do they differ from one another? >> Yeah. So I mean for sure in terms of modern psychology we could start bringing up a lot of things that I think are are off the path. Uh but in terms of attachment theory per se, you know, attachment theory is really I think I think attachment theory as its own theory really holds a lot a lot of truth. Uh but it but but attachment theory is almost basic in a sense. You know, the way that that plays itself out in in modern psychology, I think it gets into a whole lot of problems. Uh, I'm not necessarily always the biggest fan of I mean I'm I'm a social worker, a psychologist, but I'm not a card carrying member of modern psy psychology. I think there's a lot of a lot of problems. A lot a lot of problems. By the way, the word sin though is interesting because Judaism for sure puts an emphasis on. But sin is a is a I don't know a foreign translation of the word. >> Question is how do we translate? I don't know that she should be using the word sin. Right. >> She shouldn't be taking out the concept of for sure. And that would be an example of a, you know, what I would say is maybe sometimes a problem of modern psychology, but I don't know that she should be using the word sin. >> You have a specialty in social work. >> What brought you to that specialty? >> You mean in in sex addiction? Is there? Yeah. Uh, so that was also an accident. Uh my clinical internship that I got was uh at a practice that came highly recommended and I did not realize when I saw that the website said they specialize in sex addiction. I didn't realize that that meant that that's all they did. I thought it was just like a piece of it and uh I suddenly found myself doing that work and it's like wow this is really important, really interesting, challenging and super relevant to our community. And now there's a lot of people doing it. Um, not that I'm We keep going back to this. Not that I'm that old, but back then I just didn't seem like there were as many people doing it. Uh, so that's kind of how it happened, but it was also an accident. >> And what don't people understand about that work or the work that you do in that area? It's a little bit of like a taboo. Um, the shame surrounding it. Not that the other addictions people don't also struggle with that part of but this is such a complicated feels like even more complicated unlike some of the other addictions where you need to stop cold turkey or you need to manage it the rest of your life and once you're an alcoholic or or or drug addict then you can't have any even in moderation yet this is an area of life that's just part of the human experience even part of maybe identity connection relationship >> moderation so it's it seems different it and eating >> are different of the addictions. >> Yeah. >> Um so what do you think is important and particularly our community? I'll use the word our community loosely. >> Sure. >> I don't know exactly who listens and watches. Um thank god we have a beautiful family and audience but our community however you define that. What what don't they fully appreciate or understand? >> Can I turn the question back to you for a second? >> Sure. >> What do you think people do understand? I think that >> I don't mean that as a child because like I'm not sure how to even begin. >> No, yeah, we can. And and maybe with the disclaimer that we're going to now have an adult conversation and [laughter] depending on your age, >> my children should stop listening. >> Yeah, exactly. We're, you know, or maybe they should listen and maybe that's part of how we got here. Maybe that's actually the perfect segue to the conversation is if we can't >> My children should still stop listening. [laughter] But if but if we can't have the conversation as hopefully three ben Torah who know how to use the appropriate language and terminology and give a Torah context and and and there is our Misora does talk about what we talk about publicly what we talk about privately and the setting and the like. So you know I don't know how how into it we have to go but I think that um I think that our community and we and I know that healthy human beings have certain desires appetites um sush created us. The Almighty designed us in that way in a healthy way. He's a somewhat famous story of Alpaniano who had a Talmet who was asked him for permission to miss Seda to go to a family wedding in Israel with a non-religious family member. And he said readily, "Oh, but you know, there'll be people not dressed properly there, but that doesn't affect me. I don't notice it. I don't look at it. I don't care about it." And I asked him, "What's what's your mother's name?" Why do you need my mother's name? He said, "Because I want to do for you. I know your name and and I need your mother's name." So why would you do for me? said because if you can go and that's the way they're dressed or undressed and that has no impact you don't notice it then then I need to d for you because you're not healthy that's not healthy so there's a healthy normal gates we live with we struggle with it's part of the design there's reasons for it which we can get into why Hashem created a world like that so I think we all sort of know it's there there's enormous amount um for young men maybe in particular but not alone enormous emphasis there's an awkwardness so rebum parents no one knows how to talk about it in a healthy way. Frame it >> at an age where people are discovering it, struggling with it. >> If anything, when spoken about is just layered with like guilt and judgment and feeling bad about yourself and all kinds of very selected, but not necessarily universal or the only authoritative approach about, you know, how you'll die and who you killed and what you'll boil in and what lack of a world to come you'll have through certain acting out. And so there's enormous shame, guilt, confusion, sense of aloneeness um that people struggle with in it. And I think that's what people know and don't talk because they don't know where's the safe space to talk, who can they open up, be vulnerable, who can they share and confide, who else is struggling with them in it, where can they go? And then what's you asked me this back but and and what's um what are struggles that are within the realm of normal and at what point does it become the addiction that they've got to go seek right what is just recreational >> without the total lens which we never take off but what is normal for people to watch or act out in that way what is at the realm now of it being impulsive compulsive addiction what's average reasonable normal all these things are just just clouded. They're just confusing and people in that space in that lack of space uh and that loneliness and aloneeness I think is where they find a lot of problems. >> Yeah. So obviously there's so many directions and to go with this and and different aspects. So I'll just pick one and steer me differently if you want. But in terms of your original question and with the the context you just gave, I would say one of the things I think is most important to understand maybe is that as much as it's true that I think we need to do a better job at educating and finding ways to talk about it and all that kind of stuff, I don't actually think in my experience that that's where the really problematic uh addiction tendencies uh emerge from. I think that people who in their teenage years or young adult years uh follow some of those natural healthy desires that you were just brought up and whatever they uh explore uh on the internet or themselves whatever whatever it might be I think that you'll have two two groups right that emerge from the population of people who are going to uh act on those desires in their formative years. One group will act on those desires and it might escalate a little bit, it might not escalate so much. And then as they get older, as they develop a little more self-control, as their prefrontal cortex develops more in their in their 20s, as they hopefully find themselves in a committed relationship, they begin exerting a lot more discipline and they live life more aligned with values and less with impulses. And they may they will struggle as you said you know that's healthy to struggle with this and at times that struggle might might include you know what we call uh in in the swarm a ya or an aila that they that they they fell and come and and they'll they'll get up and all the the good classic schmooes for them and it would be good for them to to take you know to watch the vaan videos and and all this good stuff right that that's that's one group and then you have a second group who when they were 15 or 11 or 18, whatever it was, they began in the exact same place as that first group, but it didn't just escalate a little bit and then come down or whatever it is. And it didn't it escalated and it developed and went further and further and further and further. And none of the musmuzes they heard, none of that development of a little bit more self-control or an awareness of their own values or the vayan video or the refresher course they took on during chauvin on whatever they learned in whatever it was it doesn't seem to be helping them. So what's the distinguishing factor between group one and group two? So obviously there there's not one thing, but by and large I don't think it's I mean I'm going back to my point is I agree that it would be good for us as a community, as schools, as parents to learn how to talk to kids about these things and what the right approach is. But I don't think that that the lack of that is what's really creating addiction. I think that the difference between group one and group two is that group one is living in relatively speaking healthy connected functional family life and community and doing well and kids who have reasonably reasonably solid self-esteem and mental health etc. And those in group two are there's a I'm not going to even start listing what it is because it could be a million different things, but those in group two are dealing with much more fundamental problems and challenges and struggles uh and hurts and insecurities and whatever it is in their lives. And that's why their coping mechanism of pornography or whatever it is took on much greater significance than just the natural healthy desire that Revlian is talking about in that story when it's just the regular tya that Revlian is talking about in that story. So a person a person can deal with it better and worse at times but they can deal with it and as they get older they can hopefully deal with it a little bit better and as they're in relationships they can hopefully deal with it they can deal with it better. But it's the people who when they find that same video that their friend found, that video did something so much more powerful for them because it was it was addressing something so much more profoundly deep in what they're experiencing. It wasn't just that it felt good or they had a desire for it. And therefore it it it takes on so much more significance and and gets locked into their system in a way that that you can't just try to work on it. We have a mutual friend um who lives in Israel who uh once gave a schmoo to a few guys and it was really one of the most powerful schmoo we heard. It was like one of these like real raw talks you about 10 guys and one of the things that he confided unexpectedly was that he struggles with Shmeir Sinim and one of the things that he did was he decided that he didn't want to live a life like that that he really wanted to live a life of kaduca and he was struggling to do it and so he got himself a coach in a different country who he could speak to rely on uh hold him accountable etc. He spoke about how he communicated that to his wife, how his wife admired that in him that he was working on that and and someone after the conversation asked him, they said, you know, now that you've been working on it for so long, what has changed? And he said something that at the time surprised me, but now in the context of this conversation doesn't surprise me at all. He said, I find that my relationships are more real now. M >> in other words, when the relationships were not bound by this fictitious, you know, world online, but now was like hardcore conversations with another person in front of you. That was his takeaway from all the work that he had done was that his relationships with his spouse, with his children are more real, raw, and genuine now. And at the time, I didn't understand it, but now in the context of what you're describing, I think it makes a lot more sense to me. >> Yeah. Yeah. For sure. I mean, whenever somebody I've had a few experiences like this, when when when a a client comes in and they've been adamant that their entire focus in trying to address their addiction is on the behavior and they don't want to talk about anything else. They just want to it's just a ticking time bomb until they're right back wherever they were before they came. I mean, you know, Hashem should bless them that that's not the case. But that because because addiction is not about the behavior. Uh it's about what's underneath the behavior. It's it's you the line is that your addiction is not your problem. It's your attempted solution to a problem. And and that's why there's a difference between what I was referencing of the group one and group two. In group one, what the kid found online or what he found, whatever it is, he saw a magazine that got delivered to the house. it was, you know, whatever whatever he stumbled upon as a 12-year-old and it felt good or it was interesting or intriguing or he pursued a desire. The kid in group two when he found that same thing, it solved a problem for him or perceived to solve a problem for him. >> No, no, it actually solved a problem for him. It created a new problem, >> but it actually solved a problem >> because it was an escape. it was an escape or it was not even not even only necessarily an escape. It could be it was an escape. It could be that the experience of it actually gave him what he's looking for. >> So, let me ask you this. You know, one of the things I discovered, one of the uh people who lead Guard Your Eyes came to meet with me and just share with me some statistics across the community. I'm not going to mention any cities or communities names right now, but it might surprise people. You might think that this is a major issue, most prevalent among the community who are most liberal with not having filters on their kids' phones and allowing all kinds of cable TV in their home and magazines, but that's not necessarily the case. In fact, at the level of addiction, it might be even more prevalent in the communities that are the most careful. But my point in saying this is that it's in every community, right? So, I'm not talking about Boca Raton or Arshul. It's in every community. If you were to take in every community an honest poll, if people had no accountability or consequence, could do it anonymously and you took a poll about how many people struggle minimally or act out more, we we'd find it's real. So, if you were speaking to a group of robot leaders of a community, if you could give advice, if you had a wand to wave, if you could say, "Here's what to do. Here's how to deal with it." Because that's what we think about, right? We're we're not a community and we try not to be community leaders who bury our head in the sand. Whatever the issue is, we say, "Okay, that's real. It's happening. people have shared with us they're struggling. Great. Let's tackle it. Take it on. Let's talk about it. So, what would you recommend be the things that we do, right? Because we should have events to promote filters and what ages should get devices and all that. It's important. But that's talking about the behavior. >> If we want to get to what you say is leading to it, what would be the thing? Do we start small vadm of groups of people who can talk and confide and be honest? Is it connection relationship? Create those outlets for people. What I don't want to put words you just started saying, right? So if we want to think about it at the root of the problem and not just addressing it on a symptom level. So we would want and I'm not saying this is the whole picture, right? I think there there are we want to look at something on a in a multifaceted way. But I think maybe the most fundamental thing going back to really the theme running through this whole conversation is we would want to think about how can we promote healthier relationships uh in in the community. How can we create that? So what programming can we be doing for kids and teens that they have? If we want to help a teen not become addicted to pornography, I think filters can be important, but I don't think filters are the answer. I think a more powerful answer is that he actually the the kid who's in what I'm calling group two that the pornography was not only an escape necessarily as I was saying before but it might be that it actually gave him the sense of relationship because he can envision himself in that relationship that he's watching and and there is a perceived sense of intimacy because there's some perceived sense of really intense closeness and being seen and seeing other and being wanted by someone. So what that kid actually need if for that kid the experience of seeing that wasn't just a pleasurable desire but the experience of seeing that was solving something for him what that means he's lacking is an experience of what I just described just nothing to do with anything sexual so what those kids need is is those experiences so can we figure out how to create in our communities and I think a lot of people are trying to do this uh can we create more opportunities ities and programming for those kinds of of healthy meaningful connected relationships. >> Do you find or your work what's the divide between men, women, religious, non-religious, different segments within the religious? >> So, uh I can't I mean in terms of like the clients that I see. >> Yeah. Or general your perception of the issue in general. >> Okay. So my perception of the issue and I don't have data to say this is accurate but my my experience of it is that again using our community in a broad sense I think that our community has as has the same statistics that I see in the in the general world population when it comes to pornography. Uh I think that we have less when it comes to further um forms of acting out behavior. do have further we do have a real statistic of people who are you know acting out in sexual addiction in other ways uh but but I think it's much less than the general society number of people doing that but I think that the pornography numbers are really pretty similar >> that would be my that's my anecdotal experience meaning when I was at this point in my work I'm pretty much I'm pretty much just seeing from clients but but back when I was still seeing uh a wider range of types of clients showing up. Many of my non-Jewish clients with sexual addictions were showing up with much more extreme acting out behaviors and the not exclusively like I mentioned before, but the overwhelming majority of my from clients were you know internet uh related issues. >> Interesting. And the and the treatment and support you offer them is to not address the behavior but to talk about the connection, the relationship and what's missing. >> I think it's both. I think it's both. I think that when it comes to real addiction, there is a need to attack it uh so to speak on the on the behavioral level. Uh but I think it's I think both are needed. So I I try to take a more uh I guess well-rounded uh approach of of looking at at the addiction is a is an is a challenge that distorts reality and creates all sorts of distorted thinking. Uh and so we need to look at that. we need to kind of shatter through a lot of those those uh walls that are that are that are put up and we need to look at it on behavioral levels and create healthier lifestyles because addiction when if we're talking about real addiction addiction impacts the entirety of a person's of person's life. So in the ways that they think, the ways they talk, the ways they interact with other people, the way that they go to work, the way that they they clean their car and their hygiene and and across the spectrum of of the way that they function. So we do need to look at a lot of those things. If we just talk about the deeper stuff, we're going to be missing a fundamental piece. But also, if we only look at the behavioral level, then we're missing what's what's really going on. >> And how much does kaduca factor into that conversation? Because a lot of the talk that I hear sometimes is about if you want to aspire for life of kaduca and and there's the focus on that, but that also leads to the guilt because it means if I'm failing at that now, I've separated myself, I'm creating a void of kaduca. when you're dealing with from clients, how much of it is like aspirational versus like no, we're just treating the there's like a root cause that we're not even up to kaduca yet. >> So, I don't So, first of all, I don't think the guilt is necessarily a bad thing. Um, I'm okay with the client feeling guilt. We just need to know what to do with the guilt. uh and uh and and I think that relates to the to my answer to your question, which is that it is uh I I don't think there's anything wrong with Kadusha being involved from the get-go, but not because oh, you need to be kadosh, but because it's aspirational for you, meaning exactly what you brought up. If that's aspirational for you, the thing that motivates the change is coming back to reality. I was saying before that that addiction at its core is a distorted experience of reality. So, we need to figure out why do you want to change? Right? This is the step that I think many of us miss. And by the way, everything we're talking about right now, I think is relevant to everybody because this stuff exists on a spectrum. And I think we all experience some amount of the things that we're talking about and might not have anything to do with uh with with shmear or shmear sabris or any of these things but in some regard in our lives we all have rationalizations and distorted realities and and impulsive behaviors and all these kinds of things. So [clears throat] I think when many of us change, we change, we decide to change because of a moment of inspiration, but we don't and and and we jump right from that moment of inspiration into how am I going to change? But we skip maybe the most important step, which is why do I really want to change? What is really not okay for me in my life with the way that the status quo of what it is right now? and what would really be different in my life if I could imagine myself better at this thing or changed in this way before going to how to change right so every you know laav deal if you look at you know uh new year's resolutions you know and the magazines around New Year's and all the blog posts around five ways to change this and three ways to make this better or whatever it is it's all about how how to change and none of these things last because the most important thing of how to change is a clarity of why I want to So what I would spend time with somebody on in the beginning is to your language is what what's the aspiration here? What is it that right now is making you sit here and talk about this? What's what's not okay right now? And I will try, you know, depending on the person in the right pacing and the right way, but to sit in that to sit in the difficulty of the way things are right now because we don't change until we have real clarity why we need to change because that inspiration or that shame or whatever it is, it's going to be gone pretty soon. But what doesn't have to be gone pretty soon is my clarity on why my life will be better if this is different. >> Time flies when you're talking about addiction and about life and about attachment. But Rabiaka Dasheski, thank you for going behind the Beimma. Thank you for this conversation. >> Thank you so much. >> A lot to think about, a lot to digest, and hopefully we'll follow up. >> Thank you. >> Thanks so much. >> Thank you for listening to Behind the Bea. If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe, [music] rate, and review on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. We'll see you next week [music] for another peak behind the Beimma.