The Silent Side of S*x Addiction:The Partner’s Pain - Chaya Lazarus - The Struggle Podcast S2 - Ep1

We have enough people talking about sex addiction. Yes, it's so shameful. Yes, it's so painful. I am not negating that at all. And sex addicts absolutely need the care. But the wives are an invisible population of suffering an unbelievable amount of pain. You don't know what to believe anymore. You you don't know who this person is anymore. You did all these things that are so dirty, so disgusting, so horrific, shameful, and I'm married to you. I wasn't there to gossip. I was there to share my heart searing pain. >> Correct. >> My heart was being fried. >> Right. >> Can I talk about that? >> Unbelievable. >> So, she's telling you she's dying, >> right? >> She's telling you she can't go on another day. Do you hear her before you go back to the well, he's going to go to recovery and he promised me and he came and he cried? The abuse is next level and I appreciate that you can see it. I was dying. I was dying the that entire relationship dying inside. >> Okay. >> All right. >> Today uh we welcome uh an incredible brave woman um whose story is about heartbreak and betrayal and ultimately about healing. um she chose to speak out um and share her journey uh to give a voice not only for her or for countless others who don't have a voice. Um the shame, the confusion is horrific. Um our guest today is Lazarus. Welcome to the struggle. >> Thank you. Thank you for having me. >> Excellent. Um thank you for coming in. >> Absolutely. Um the topic that we want to discuss is uh very sensitive topic. >> Very sensitive. >> It's about sex addictions. Happens to be that this was in the past. We're going to discuss um >> a previous relationship. >> Previous relationship, but now you are happily married. >> Bashem I'm happily married to someone who is not a sex addict. Okay. And uh I met him 3 years ago and I told him when we met I said when we were going to get engaged I said you're marrying a woman on a mission and it's not a pretty mission so are you in for the ride and he's been very supportive ever since. So yeah Barashem he's not the inspiration for this >> conversation. Excellent. So you're in good shape right now. Yeah. But the idea is that you feel that uh you feel that a spouse of a sex addict and the people on the other side of the aisle are not being seen and not being understood and they're just being there. You know, they of course they want to support, but you want to give your side of the story as well. Correct. >> Yeah. So what I want you to do is tell us a little bit about how does it feel to be on the other side of the aisle because I noticed also that this type of addiction, the sex addiction is an invisible one. This is not something that that you can spot, you know, an alcoholic or a drug addict. This is something that is in secret and in shame and um tell us how you feel. It's a big question. It's obviously the biggest question. Um, it's one of the one of the reasons I'm speaking out is because of how hard it is to put into words to the world who to a world of people who've never been there. >> Correct. >> What I would say is it's a pain that I have rarely seen in my life. There are so many elements of it. There's to start out with, let's just start with the betrayal trauma. There's just this sense of shock. And I'm talking from a previous relationship. I'm going to just talk from the perspective of a wife. So when you're married, there's obviously this this obviousness that your husband is the person who's closest to you, who's there for you, who is supposed to be who's supposed to be your home and your safety. And there's this absolute shock that comes with knowing what he's doing, what he's done. Um, sometimes it's after years and years of lies that you had no idea. You thought he was one person and he's done things that are unimaginable. >> Wow. >> Unimaginable. And you're just shocked that he could even do such a thing to you. So the the experience of shock is on like an experience level. It's not an intellectual shock. It's your whole world is shaking. Your whole world you you don't know what to believe anymore. You you don't know who this person is anymore. You did all these things that are so dirty, so disgusting, so horrific, shameful, and I'm married to you. How like, how did you do this to me? How did I not know? How did I choose you? What's wrong with my judgment? How did I not how did I not pick up on it? >> Right? >> There's just that that level of betrayal. And then obviously the area of betrayal that it's in. You know, this is not like where someone spent all your money, which is not a small thing, right? If someone spent all your money and and behind your back, it would it would also be a severe violation of a relationship. Over here, they betrayed you in the most intimate way possible. It's like I as a woman, my basic right to you, the the one thing that ties us as a couple is our exclusivity in this area. >> The intimacy. intimacy, >> sacred intimacy. >> Yeah. Yeah. This and and you took that and you ran it over with a tractor, a bus, and anything else you could think of in term in my experience, you just you it's the biggest violation that can be done in a marriage. So, it just it it does so much. It does so much to your mind. And I again like I have a hard time putting it into words but it it creates questions around who am I to you? What am I to you? And then it starts off with with who am I to you? What am I to you? How would you do such things? How how could you do such things? How could you be part of such filth? And then it starts to trickle into your own sense of self. Wait, who am I? What even is a woman? What is sexuality? What is relationships? What is marriage? Like, and all of this, again, these are not just questions in your head. You experience a shift in how you're experiencing the world. Um, I personally experienced this and I've heard others say that you start at some point to, and I'm not saying everyone, all of my examples I'm not saying are relevant to everyone, >> but I'm giving real examples of my and and many many others. many others, not just me. Um, I want to backtrack for a second just in terms of what happened for me. I was in this relationship, and I'll get back, I'll finish my sentence then. I was in this relationship with someone who who had a sex addiction who I'm no longer in touch with. Um, here and there, I actually did get permission to come on the podcast and say to the extent that I'm saying, so I appreciate him for that. Um, but I basically got into this world of sex addiction by being in a relationship and I was referred to Esanon which is the 12 steps meetings for spouses of >> spouses. Yeah. >> Can you explain what how a meeting in SNAon looks? >> Yeah. >> Because um >> we know you were saying that there is not you don't get the support that you uh >> so Esanon is very very complicated and it's it could be its own whole podcast. It could be its own series to be honest. Um, the amount of warmth and support that you're going to get in Essinon is unmatched. Uh, I know that for me back then and many other people, the one or two hours a week that you get where your soul is not doesn't feel like it's being crushed >> is while you're in those meetings, is while you're talking to those people. So, there's so much good that Essinon does. However, there's also it's also lacking in terms of its acknowledgment of the level of trauma um and in terms of how it's addressing the people there. There's a lot of pathologies, a lot of in the readings there is, you know, they they'll say something like, you know, we chose to marry a sexaholic because we learned when we were younger that sex is the most important thing, so we chose it based on this. And it's like first of all, half the people that I was in groups with, which is many groups were people, they didn't choose anybody. >> They didn't choose. >> They didn't choose. So first of all, >> you feel like they're forcing you to to to affirm certain statements and things about yourself. >> You need to believe that you don't feel like it. >> Exactly. Now, for some it's true, for some it's not true. I absolutely advocate if people get divorced >> to afterwards go once you're healed, once you're okay to go and figure out who you choose, why you choose what you're attracted to. But just a pathology like that across the board, that's in the reading. The reading is everyone reading, right? To say such a thing that to me it's it's a pathology. And then there are are some subtle messages in Esson that I'm I'm not a big fan on fan of, but there are messages there that I am a big fan of. Right? >> Like the the big message in Esinon is you didn't cause it, you can't control it, and you can't cure it. That is massively important because there are women who are like, "Is this me? >> Is this because I'm ugly? Is it because I'm not good enough? Maybe I'm not sexual enough." >> The answer is absolutely not. He could he could be married, and I'm sorry for being so >> I'm going to be just open. Um, he could be married to the most gorgeous, sexiest sex doll, >> right? >> It's not going to do it. He needs fantasy. Reality is what he's escaping from. As long as your reality, you're not going to do it for him. You could have all the sex with him in the world. You could look amazing. You could do surgeries until you're oozing plastic. Yeah. It's not doing it. That's not what he needs. He needs an escape from his reality. So the question is as a sex addict is he looking for everything that moves or is he that particular person that he is with he becomes uh grossed out of >> he wants to look for something else. >> So there's always the looking for something else and then in terms of how they treat the spouse it can go in different directions. So you have ones that start there's a lot of marital rape in sex addiction. >> Right. Explain it what that means. That means >> I'll give you an example from my friend and this is part of part of the reason that I'm here is the responses that people are getting. The addiction itself is so painful. The responses people have gotten from rabundam and therapists is what hurts me so much because these are most rabundan therapists are well-meaning. >> They want to do good. They spend rabundims spend their lives helping people for free, right? They're well they're well-meaning. But the things that I have heard that I myself also experienced in a small way but friends of mine mostly that I've heard the responses that came from our bunny were like shocking um extremely invalidating. I've never met a population more desperate and craving validation basic validation than wives of sex addicts. It's like you have a population of people who are dying inside dying inside and the world doesn't know it. So one example of what you said like the marital rape thing. My friendesh amazing amazing woman strong amazing independent believe me even if she was one of those who you know got to choose she was going to choose if we're going to go with the theory that you choose whatever she was going to choose a king cuz she's she's just an amazing woman. um her husband would tell her, "I want to have sex." And she would say, "No, I don't want to tonight." And he would force himself on her. And if she resisted, he would say, "If you resist, you're going to regret it." There was a physical threat there. >> Mhm. >> So, she would lay there, >> right? >> And she went to the Reb, her her Reb, I'm not saying it's a big Reba, I don't know who it was exactly, but her her kidish Reb that she went to. And he said, "It's your husband. and you have a to to be with him, >> right? >> I I don't I I don't know how to comprehend that. I don't know how to understand that. I don't know how to have a conversation past that. What do you even say to someone who says that, >> right? >> Like, where do you where do you start in in describing like how off that is? Um, and that's that's not uncommon. That's not uncommon. So, to go back for a second about just just me, who I am, I know we're jumping around a little bit. Um, and I tend to do that. So, feel free to >> reorganize me because I'm so I'm so hyped about this topic because I feel like the need. But back to me, I I so I joined Essanon. >> Yeah. >> And I realized that what I was going through and what >> so so what other wives were going through was literally people living in hell. People turning into people they didn't they didn't recognize. >> Wow. And the responses from therapists and rebundium just was consistently not always but consistently enough really really really invalidating. And that shook me that really really shook me. And it took me to a place I said I said I'm going to have to do something about this one day. >> Right now I can't I'm in hell right >> and I'm but I will have to do something about this one day. So, um, I spent since then, we're talking over 10 years ago when I was dealing with this, I spent hundreds, if not thousands of hours of consuming content from sex addiction professionals, um, sex addiction therapists, uh, you know, Patrick K, Rob Weiss, all those all the big ones, the big names. Uh, whether it's books, whether it's their speeches on YouTube, I know this in my sleep. I know this stuff. And I Yeah. And I decided I I have to educate myself as much as I can. I spent t again hundreds of hours talking to women going through this. >> And so yeah, I know I know this topic inside out. And again, I'm not focused here on the topic of sex addiction. I'm focused on how sex addiction impacts the spouse. >> We have enough people talking about sex addiction. Yes, it's so shameful. Yes, it's so painful. I am not negating that at all. And sex addicts absolutely need the care. But the wives are an invisible population of suffering an unbelievable amount of pain. >> Wow. Well, let me ask you a question. How long did it take for you um to discover um that something is wrong? >> So, for me as a as a a part of a relationship with someone who was um a sex addict, how long? Um, it didn't take very long. It took a few months. Something weird happened. >> What happened? >> Something weird happened. I'm not going to go into it too much because this person's one request was that I not talk too much about his stuff. Um, but something he he acted weird. He acted strangely in a way that raised a red flag. It was nothing that you could say was shocking, horrible, horrific. It raised a red flag. It made me ask him, "Have you been watching porn?" And you didn't uh ignore the red flags in the beginning. >> This thing that happened was strong enough to make me just ask the question, have you been watching porn? >> I didn't I didn't yet know the word addiction. >> So then you found when did you find out that there >> is such a thing that it's even exist? I mean there something like that and and you're dealing with that. >> Yeah. So when I when I found out about the porn use, we then, you know, we got into therapy and then he's decided he's going to get a filter on his phone and he's going to stop the porn and all that stuff. Um about a year close to a year later we were we were hanging out somewhere and there was like open internet around and for these nine months in between. I was not feeling better. >> I wasn't feeling any better. I actually reached a point where okay I found out about the porn use. He started therapy. He got a filter on his phone. And a few weeks later I'm I'm miserably depressed. And I'm like, "Something's wrong with me." And I'm like, "Okay, depressed people ruin relationships. I have to deal with my depression." >> Right? >> I went to a psychiatrist and I said, "What do I do? I'm depressed. I'm going to ruin my relationship." >> And he asked me a bunch of questions and he says, "Um, you're not depressed. It's it's circumstantial what we call it, >> right?" >> But then I did a lot of research online and I I found that um doing a certain amount of exercise could help the same amount as pills for depression. So, I took on that exercise because I didn't want to ruin the relationship with my depression, >> right? >> Which what I came to realize later was absolutely wild. I was the one taking on the depression. >> He he just violated me like very seriously. And I'm I'm I'm complaining and I remember telling him like, "I took this on cuz I don't want to ruin our relationship." And he's like, "Yeah, you know, that's really good cuz I really miss you. I really need you." And the whole thing was just so upside down. It was so backwards, >> right? >> Um but anyway, back to that. So three months in I I I found out about the porn use. He gets the filter. He goes to therapy and then nine months later we're somewhere with open internet and I find myself through the nine months I wasn't okay. >> But officially I'm supposed to be. He's not doing anything. I'm watching I'm supposed to be okay. So I'm like something's wrong with me. >> Something's wrong with me. We get to this place on internet and I'm like okay this is wild. I I can't I'm not breathing. I can't leave him for one second out of sight. I'm so scared. Like that's not normal. Like I shouldn't be feeling like this. Nine months after. Okay. >> Uh we ended I ended up reaching out to I actually ended up reaching out to Rabbi Torski. >> The Rabbi Tski. >> Yeah. Yeah. Rabbi Abram Tski. >> Rabbi Abram Tski. And he happened to be in town and he said, "Come." And we went together and um you know we spoke to him separately, me and him. I was I was a mess. I I'm not a big crier in public. I don't do that. I I I sat there and I was uncontrollably sobbing, >> right? >> And it was it was it was like those stories of a rub who just sits there and listens and like it makes you feel better. Like it always sounds stupid in the books, but it really was true. >> Um and he gave us the word addiction and he told he he told him he said, you know, you go to your he actually referred us to guard your eyes. Mhm. >> He said there's go to groups and he told me there's you know there's there's groups for he said spouses but he said yeah basically go to the groups for spouses. >> Uh whatever. That's when I found Esinon. That's how I found Esanon. And I was like oh that's it. >> He was an addiction specialist. >> He was Yeah. He said it's an addiction. >> Yeah. >> I said oh we have now we know what we're going to do and now it's going to get better. So as far as you understand an explanation from you um why is this happening to to these men? What is the reason for this sex addiction? What are they looking for? >> I could answer that question, but I do feel like I feel like I want to keep the focus on the women. >> Mhm. Because because this is not not not this as in you but the conversation often goes to the addiction because it's addiction because it's interesting. >> I'll tell you what I want to understand. I want to understand from a spouse's point of view if you understand the if the healing part is to understand where this is coming from and what they're looking for automatically you take yourself out of the equation. >> You would think so. Absolutely not. >> So that's what I want to hear. >> Absolutely not. It's still it's still such a violation. I'll give you an example. If an alcoholic gets in the car, >> right? >> Let's say he hates himself, the alcoholic. He He's on his way to kill himself. Let's take that that far of an example. >> And he gets in the car and he runs you over with his car, >> right? >> And then you're in the emergency room and all your bones are all all her bones, like his wife. Let's say his his wife, he runs her over with the car. She's in the emergency room, all her bones are broken, and someone comes there and starts explaining to her, "No, he's he's in so much pain. That's why he drinks. That's why he got in the car. >> My bones are broken. and stop talking to me about him. >> So, what you're saying is you think it's more of an excuse uh this addiction? >> Absolutely not. >> I don't think it's an excuse. I think it's not for the wife to worry about until she is >> stably feeling understood, validated like her experience matters. We have to stop talking about this as an addictcentric story. >> I got you. I got you. I understand it clearly. >> Yeah. >> Very very interesting. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So you're saying um how did it make you feel? Did it make you feel that it is your fault? You mentioned it before. Did it make you feel small to to that you you took on the burden of this? >> I felt subhuman. >> Wow. >> I didn't feel like a person. I felt like there was inherently something wrong with my femininity. And I don't mean femininity in like pink flowers. I mean as a woman >> there was I felt all the other women in the world are desirable and interesting and have something to offer and I'm broken. I am defective inherently. >> Wow. You took the full blame for yourself. >> A lot of it. >> A lot of it. And what did you do with those feelings? Did you start uh studying the other women? Did you start running after this idea? Let me the images that he was looking for. Did you start working on that to please? >> Yeah. So it goes in a lot of directions. I could say for for a lot a lot of these women I I'll say for myself I I started wearing I mean obviously now I came dressed in and made up. I never wear makeup. >> I never put on a shel. My husband's like I don't care wear a like why it's more comfortable right? Like and and I'm like not a big dresser upper. >> Um >> I wore a full face makeup perfect shait. Got a whole new wardrobe. this is gonna do it. There are many women who find themselves doing things sexually in the bedroom that they are humiliated to be doing >> and they're doing it cuz maybe this will please and maybe this will be enough. Um people absolutely take it on as their own thing or even if it's not my problem, maybe I could help by doing this. Even if it's not I didn't cause it, but I still want my husband to think I look good. I still want him to be happy with me even if I didn't cause his problem. So, like there's just such a desperate need to be seen, to be wanted, to be appreciated for who you are that people people violate themselves horrendously sexually and in just how they are in terms of how how they try to show up as a woman. And it's it's embarrassing. It's it's humiliating. >> And they'll be they'll do it and they'll feel humiliated and they'll do the same thing the next day, >> right? >> And again and again and again. And it's horrible. And it comes with self-hate and self-lame and shame and and it doesn't work, >> right? it doesn't work. So yeah, the pain the the pain is is really really really indescribable. Like I I one of the things I was gung-ho >> back then. >> Yeah. >> I I'm the type I want it to be my problem because then I could fix it. Right. >> Right. Different people have different reactions. I'm like if you give me the responsibility I could fix it if I work on my stuff. >> I went into I'm going to do I'm not going to do 12 steps. I'm going to do 24 steps. Yeah. I was like, and I I I worked the steps and I worked on my codependence and I worked on my controllingness and I worked on my this and that. I got myself a sponsor. >> Um, >> you literally took on the addiction >> on yourself. >> Something that you did not ask for. >> Yeah. >> And you got very little support. First of all, the the shame and the secrecy. >> Yeah. Was did you hold that in and not share it with family, friends, community, public? This is a this is something that is you got to carry by yourself. >> Yeah. Because you don't want to tell anyone because if if I'm going to stay with him, I don't want everyone to know. >> Correct. So that that is a silent struggle that is beyond work. >> Extremely isolating. Extremely isolating and shaming. And it's it's you start having to live a double life. >> Yeah. >> You're like, "Oh, how are you?" Oh, my husband's home. Like, okay. Or like someone will ask something about your husband and it's a day where like all you're doing is like feeling like your entire existence is melting slowly and and you're just like, "Oh yeah, he's great. You know, we did this. We that just lies. You have to you're lying because you don't want to tell everyone." So, it's it's a very very isolating experience. Yeah. which is why I have such a complicated relationship with einon because einon takes away the isolation. But the other thing it does is it normalizes. >> It it normalizes it and it also makes you feel like you're part of it and you have a role to uh uphold this uh you become part of the >> you become part of the equation. So it's a very mixed message in Esanon. Again, I don't want to bash it because I I think there's so much good there and I know that any woman who I'm helping, many of them are going to be in Essinon and I don't want them to think I'm anti I'm not anti-Esanon. >> I think Esanon is a timeline issue. First of all, >> is a place where you go to work on yourself. It's it's to be surrounded by people who are going through what you're going through. So, I'm going to a group of women who are dealing with the same thing I'm dealing with, which is already so helpful. I'm I cannot say enough how much I >> wish everyone was part of a support group for whatever they're going through. Support groups are amazing. I >> think it was a support group. >> Yeah, support groups are are beyond. >> So Essinon is definitely that. Um and it is a place where you're going to work on yourself to really really work on yourself and the growth you see by with people who are really doing the 12 steps is real growth. It's it's it's rare that you see in this generally in this world people who change as adults, right? People generally are who they are. You know, you get older, people hit 60, they're a little different when they were 40. Sure, that happens. But people who like are actively changing, you meet them a year or two after you last saw them and they're a different person. That's rare. You see that with people in the 12 steps. They really are changing and developing. >> It's amazing. >> But it is a place that you're there to work on yourself. And when someone, like I said, is in the depths of trauma, that's not the time to work on yourself. That's the time to be held, to be stitched. Yeah. To be stitched back together, to be >> validated and validated and validated, to be given words for what you're going through, to be held, to be you need an incubator for when you're going through this. I cannot I I there are no words I could use to describe the depths of the pain. I remember walking into a a supermarket. It was Arab Pes I think or Arabs sukus one of the big yontiffs where was a bunch of people in in the supermarket and one of the messages I got in Esanon which which not every eanon group different groups take on different cultures also. So some are like I have some friends who've been in Esanon they don't feel like it did any damage to them and I have some friends who are like no not for me and then there's me where I know it did a lot of good and it did damage. Um, but I remember one of the messages, one of the messages that they give you is um, every marriage has its problems. At least now, you know, the problem you're dealing with. And and I'm I'm in this relationship and I'm like, okay, maybe maybe every relationship just has its issues. And I'm walking to the grocery and I remember just thinking about this and I remember feeling like feeling like my soul's on fire. Like I I I can't describe to you the pain. I I keep saying I can't describe it because I really can't I've never in my life felt such pain like when I was in that relationship and I had a hard life. I did not have an easy life. I've been through a lot. >> I never felt the depths of pain that I felt in that relationship. And I remember walking through the grocery store and saying, "Everyone feels like this. That's crazy." But you're saying something very very important because this is in a lot of abusive relationships uh both sides women or men will say to themselves >> um everyone has hardships everyone is going through this >> and this keeps them stuck yes in a certain place that uh I don't I don't see uh what's the next one going to be or you talk to yourself this way and you talk yourself into staying and being abused in in in becoming a codependent in a relationship. Exactly. It's tremendous what you're saying. >> Yeah. A thousand%. And and and that is part of why I I struggled within. Like I said, it's not said this way in all groups. But that was a very strong message in the group that I was a part of. Every marriage has its issues. A lot of the messages were also once you leave such a person, you'll often end up marrying the same kind of person. >> All these kind of rhetoric is going on in your head. >> Yeah. It's like you go see light by the end of the tunnel. >> No, there's no light. And you that's why you have to stay and and the message I I took from it was that's why you have to stay in Esinon and work the steps and you will get better and I stayed in Essinon and I worked the steps and at some point I'm like I'm not okay. I'm not doing better. I literally have a poem I would read it. It's on my phone but like a poem I wrote or like a letter I wrote to myself when I was in the throws of denial of like oh this codependency work is really working for me. I'm learning not to be codependent. >> I didn't realize I'm healing. This is so helpful because I was like in the throws of the 12 steps and I was in denial that it was yes, it it's it's it's great selfwork, but it it it wasn't helping the severe trauma I was in. And I just wrote a whole thing about how like I discovered life because I'm no longer codependent. And then like I look at it now, I'm like such desperation, >> right? >> I was going to ask you about denial. There was a time in that you were denied to yourself this entire thing like you were telling yourself that this is not that bad. This is not so severe. Is Was there a time that you were trying to cover it up or actually help him cover it up? >> I never tried to help him cover it up. I tried to tell myself it's fine. It will be fine. >> Mhm. when someone told me early on like like you don't need this like why would you stay with someone in you're in a relationship with someone who you know marriages like these don't end up well why don't you leave while you're ahead >> and I was like how could you say that I love this person like I was like how could you say that and now looking back I'm like she was really trying to help and she was right >> um and thank god I did leave two years later But but in terms of the denial, there's there was denial that that's where again my issue with the einon piece is when I was dealing with this. When you're in active trauma, this is not past trauma that's acting up. This is active trauma happening. Your brain's not working, right? >> Your world is turning upside down. Your world is spinning as you're every day that you're you're you're walking around the streets and your world is spinning. You don't feel like a normal person. You can't think straight. You don't know what life is. You don't know what's what's going on. You don't know right from wrong, up from down. So when I joined Essinon as the place to go for help for this >> and I'm surrounded by women going through this, that in itself normalizes it, >> right? >> So I didn't it wasn't even my own denial. It was like, oh, I'm surrounded by women who are dealing with this. They they're all married, >> right? >> So So obviously it's not that bad. And also the culture in Essinon is and this is again a timeline issue. I think a time to work on yourself is an amazing thing. And someone who first goes to a lot of therapy and really reaches a place of like where they could even put words to what they're feeling. They could put words to what they're going through. They know what their husband is, they know the situation, they know what they're dealing with. they feel like, okay, now I want to stay in this relationship or I want to at least give it a certain amount of time and I want to go to a place that helps me work on myself to do the most I can within myself to be okay within this relationship. That's a great time to go to Esanon. >> But when you're falling apart, it's not. So, like I said, I was fall I I was falling apart. I didn't know up from down. And you join a group and everyone's okay. And the culture every not everyone's okay but but the culture there is gratitude a lot of gratitude for program. It's capital P program. I'm so grateful for program. That's how people share. >> Um drop culty but okay we could forgive culty. >> Um >> a lot of gratitude. And there's also like this culture of we're not here to gossip about the addict. Now >> I wasn't there to gossip. I was there to share my heart searing pain. >> Correct. >> My heart was being fried. >> Right. >> Can I talk about that? >> Unbelievable. >> So, it's like you're allowed a little bit. There's a little bit of falling apart that's allowed, but it's they don't. The culture does. >> Yes. >> There's a culture. >> Yes. Now, let me ask you about the gratitude. They want you to get into gratitude mode. We know that works and that is positive and it's a good thing. But while you're going through the trauma, um, what is gratitude? at that time like um um um give me a few examples that people shared gratitude while they're going through this. >> It's the culture there is all gratitude for the 12step program. >> Uhhuh. >> So grateful I found program. I never would be where I am today without program. Some people go as far as to say I'm so happy I I married someone like this because it got me to program. There's this >> grow. >> Yeah. Yeah. But it's all grat the gratitude attitude based on the program >> is is to two capital P program. >> Wow. >> It's a very interesting it's a very interesting thing. >> Let me ask you an interesting question. This what you went through is anything diff is there a difference from what you're describing to a regular affair if you would hear that a person had? >> Yeah. >> Explain the difference. >> It's very different. So, first of all, we're talking about we're not an affair is horrific. >> Yeah. >> And awful and many many many many can't recover from this. What I'm talking about, first of all, comes a lot of times in the version of repeated affairs. Um, second of all, there's a you could have a person who's a normal person and he makes a terrible mistake and possibly because he has a part of him that's not a good person. Maybe he's a bad person and he had an affair. I'm not saying they're always a good person, >> but he did he did a really bad thing. >> Sex addicts are sick. >> It's a it's a it's a disease of character and of mind. You could have a sex addict who's not acting out much and they're still going to cause you damage because their relationship with women I'm I'm talking as if the guy is the sex addict and I know that it goes both ways. I don't want to invalidate anyone who who's going in the other direction, correct? >> But I'm gonna just go with that >> for for the sake of count >> for the sake. Exactly. >> These men see sexuality in a very sick way. They see women in a sick way. They see their wife in a sick way. And that creates a lot of damage. And it's so much of the subtle damage that you can never put into words. If my husband goes and cheats on me, I can say he cheated on me. But if for five years I for some reason I I just feel gross. I just feel dirty. I just feel not good enough. And he never said a word like that. I can't explain it. It's his view of the world. It's his view of sexuality. It's his view of you that impacts you. Right. You have >> you have a friend. I assume you have a friend in the world, right? >> Um I assume you you know your friend likes you. >> Yeah. >> Does he tell you often, "Hey, I really really like you." Probably not. >> You feel things, >> right? >> People know how they're viewed by other people. >> Right? >> Our sexuality also has that perception. I know how I'm I >> It's an intuition. >> It's an intuition, right? It's just like there's a part of me that knows if I'm like, there's a part of me that knows if I'm respected. There's a part of me that knows if I'm sexually being related to >> or used >> or or used or seen in a certain way. >> Right. Right. >> These addicts, they are very very very very often seeing you in a very objectifying sick light. And touching on this is risky because I don't I don't want to be offensive to to addicts. I I don't want to be hurtful and and if any of what I'm about to say is not true for you, then it's not true for you. >> But the addiction very very very often comes with a lot of abuse. >> Right? So that's what I was going to ask you. Is it is it uh is there is this is there an underlying thing of control and abuse and nastiness or you could be the nicest person in the world. He just suffers from this disease. >> The second one that you just said, I have met people like that. I found it rare. >> Wow. Yeah, which is sad. The ones who catch it when they're single is a different story before they get married, before they're hurting people. And that's for two reasons. First of all, they never hurt anyone with it hopefully. >> But whatever, whatever they they didn't hurt their wife with it or whatever. You know, obviously if if someone's watching porn in their father's house and their father's a would hate that, you could call that hurting someone, but I'm saying they never betrayed anyone on that level. Um, also the fact that they realized it when they're single means that they already have a part of them that knows that this is off. This is not just wrong. This is off. This is warped. This is skewed. I don't want to be doing this. So, their mindset is already different when they're coming into marriage, even if they're always going to struggle with not acting out. So, with single people, it can look very, very different once they get mar even once they get married. Um, if they catch it at that point. But what you asked about like the underlying control and abuse, sometimes it's not just underlying. Very often it's pretty overt. >> Wow. >> Yeah. Uh verbal abuse happens a lot. I I could tell you multiple stories, but I have I have a friend whose husband would ask her to do like really really shameful things in the bedroom. And when she refused like, I you're so ugly. I should never have married you. I should never have had kids with you. You're disgusting. You're so embarrassing. These are things he would say to her consistently. >> Consistently. Um that's just that's just one example. Or you have husbands who they'll they'll go about it in a more subtle way. So like, hey, I want to do a this and this and this and this sexually. And they won't be forceful about it. But if not, they'll they'll like grieve. They'll be like, no, it's fine. You don't have to, but I'm just not going to like really feel good. >> Yeah. >> So, it's like this that that that leaves you in a place of like, wait, what's what's going on? You're asking me to do something I feel awful about. You're going to make me feel like I'm hurting you. Like, all I'm basically worth to you is your sexual gratification, >> right? >> To the point that you're going to sit there as a sad boy because your wife isn't willing to do something >> Yeah. that you just watched in porn last night, >> right? >> And the the there are people I I have met more than more than a few. I wouldn't say a lot, but I would say more than a few where there was also physical not beating, >> right? >> But pushing, kicking, shoving, and that's not this is I don't I don't even want to focus on that because even without that, it's so um it's so painful. Like we don't need to bring it to that to say why it's so painful, >> right? >> But a there's a lot of abuse. There's a lot of gaslighting. There's a lot of lying, a lot a lot a lot of lying. A lot of times the disclosure, the how they share what they've done comes out in pieces, >> right? So the lying is um minimizing like if you confront them, would they lie and minimize nothing happened? What if this is nothing? You're making a big deal out of uh >> Yeah. And they can do all of that >> and then they could one day be super honest >> and then they'll >> why would they tell you so bluntly everything if uh is that part of >> so they're also obviously going through their own experience that this is something that I wish wives understood he's your husband to you he's much more significant than you are to him and I know that hurts to hear >> but it's also like he's living in his own world of pain and all he's trying to do is fill his saying you're the wife, the are the kids, there's the this, there's the that, there's the job. >> His basic entire focus is the addiction. Like, so you're so much it's so not about you like what he is doing, what he's not doing. It's not even about you. He's his own he's in his own sick disease, >> right? And that that everyone has to understand because that is the key to your self-worth. If you understand that he's living in his own world, almost narcissistic, living in his own world, >> very narcissistic, >> very narcissistic, that it's not, it's zero to do with you, >> right? >> Zero. It's not your it's not your image. It's not the way you look. It's not the way you talk. It has zero to do with you. Literally, >> it is everything to do with him. >> Yeah. >> And it's manipulating. And in one way, it's so sick that in one way they would be denying it, minimizing it. in the other way. They have the the the audacity to actually share with you what they did and then come back. It's it the abuse is next level. >> The abuse is next level. And I appreciate that you can see it because there are many people who hear abuse after abuse and they're just like, "Oh, but maybe give him time. He's working on it. He's trying." >> And this is and this is uh Sconum Rabon. And who are these people who are like making you even, you know, abusing you again >> 100% >> actually abusing you on top of the abuse because there's no validation and >> whatever. They're trying to glue the marriage. They're trying to, you know, they're they're looking at it from a different angle completely. And the woman is like, I didn't sign up for this. Yeah. >> And I'm here to support and I'm here to help, but >> but I'm not getting any help. I'm actually the one who starts working and uh I'm working harder than he is working. >> Yeah, a thousand%. And that that's the thing that a lot of times it's coming from a place of let's try to keep this marriage together. At what cost? And I'm not saying let's try to separate the people. I'm not saying let's go ahead and try to >> but can we see the reality before you try and save the marriage? Stop. >> Listen to what she's telling you. >> She's telling you she's dying, >> right? >> She's telling you she can't go on another day. Do you hear her before you go back to the well he's going to go to recovery and he promised me and he came and he cried. Another issue here is that the man addicts are very are often very meek very very like neb seeming not not in their regular life but when they're talking about their addiction in therapy and with their >> you have a tremendous ramunas on them. >> Yes. They very they elicit a lot of pity and they also it's also because they have a lot of self-pity and you kind of just are dragged into their narrative. So they come to therapy and they're crying and they're sad and they're talking about how they're going to work on it and and they feel so just sad and shame. You mistake that for niceness and care and empathy. It's not. >> Sometimes it is. If it is, it is. I'm not saying it's it's not >> it's definitely not obviously that. And then you have a wife coming in to the to a therapy session or to a r and she's crazy. She is wild. She's screaming. Yeah, she's potentially calling him names. She's acting like a crazy person. She's crying suddenly. She a minute ago she was angry saying, "I don't care. I never want to look at him again." Suddenly, she's crying and how how she he doesn't love her. >> Sorry about this, but what the hell do you do with such a woman? >> Right? >> They're difficult. We are difficult a difficult population to work with. I understand that it's hard to hold. And also, you want so badly to help them. There's only so much you can do. I understand that it's hard, but can we stop focusing on let's save this marriage as the obvious first response? Maybe we'll save the marriage, but can we give her like an hour of validation before we save the marriage, >> right? You know, so there's there's there's so much of the focus on saving the marriage and also combined with the pity on the on the addict and they come in, they crying like with my my situation, my relationship, he I mean you see me now a little bit now I'm toned down, >> right? >> Uh like he was like a a very like sweet, soft, meek person. And many therapists we would come in, I looked crazy. I did look crazy. And >> you you were all riled up. >> I was Yeah. riled up, but yeah. Nerves. I was like a wounded, caged animal. That's how I would right >> I would describe myself. >> Um >> So what you're saying is they right away looked at you like that the you're out of control. >> You're out of control. >> In the meantime, nobody nobody is looking at who who put this fire on. >> Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. I couldn't have said it better. >> Yes. I'm out of control, but look at this. >> Yeah. >> Crying human. And stop mistaking. Stop like like also therapists and our it's it's much easier whenever you're talking to a couple if you just give a muscle of two kids, right? You have the well behaved kid and the not well behaved kid and they're fighting. Who do you go to? The well- behaved one. The one who listens the weak. Yeah. Because poor guy, he's going to >> you can you can you can reason with that one. >> Reason with that one. So they come to the spouse, the therapist or abundant. They try to reason with the spouse because there isn't much to talk to with the addict. They're just crying or giving their sob story or giving whatever. it's easier to talk to the spouse. So, they come to the spouse and they're like, they're trying to work with you. Meanwhile, you're broken, >> trying to work with the one who was sane. But, but in the meantime, this woman is >> the invalidation is beyond the invalidation is beyond. I've had many, many, many women tell me that that the pain of the addiction itself is so much less than the invalidation that comes later than the g from their husbands and from the rest of the people. Well, the husband like >> it's crazy. >> I wish men understood, okay, you did this, you may never be able to salvage your marriage, but you really may. And it's going to be a struggle. Just if I could give you like one blanket rule, don't ever invalidate. Don't invalidate. She's saying something. She's telling you you're the worst person in the world. She's saying all that. Keep it in. Just stay in the conversation. Leave the house. Go scream. Go call 30 people and scream what you're feeling. never invalidate her because that sets it all back, right? >> You have a lot of that, by the way, where the addict will suddenly often in the beginning when they disclose or when it comes out, they'll be apologetic. >> Really apologetic. >> Like we I it's not me. I didn't mean it. >> I'm so sorry. I can't believe I did this to you. All of it. And then suddenly at some point it snaps back and they're like, you're overreacting. It was so long ago. >> They're normalizing it. Yeah. So that gives you whiplash. Wait, I thought you were really sorry. I thought there was room for me to be angry and hurt about it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. And now there isn't. So it's like, no, stop invalidating. I had one woman say to me like literally two weeks ago, she said, I remember when he she's still with him. She she found out about eight years ago that he had cheated on her multiple times and she stayed he went into recovery. I I think I think he's sober. We think he's sober. I don't know. I you can't know for sure, but he's not like in serious recovery, but we think he's sober. Um, and she says, she said to me, "I remember when I found out I was heaving, sobbing in the car, a pain that I never experienced in my life. I never knew what it could be like." And she said, "Now, 7 years later, I wish I could go back to that time where yes, where the reality was something horrible has been done and it's horrible and I'm hurt." And that makes sense because now he turned he turned his attitude around and he'll he'll weaponize against her some of her reactions from back then still till today. >> So the invalidation does as much as much damage in my situation. He started meetings that's when he started coming back to me with attitude. >> Wow. >> He got a lot of backing from his friends. the support >> the support about tell her she's being codependent. Tell her that he he had told me that he had uh I'll just say he had a crush on a specific woman. And this was a woman who who she owned a store. Um now it was a store that a kind of store that you can go to a bunch of other stores to get the same thing. But okay, he went to that one. Um, so once he told me that, he had a moment of honesty and he told me that. Um, of course, I was devastated like like whatever. And then he, okay, he's not going to go to that store anymore. And he came he comes to me one day, he says, you know, I discussed this with the guys in group. I have to go to that store because you don't want me to. >> That's so what you're saying is that even the 12step program is also not working. Do you think that that is on the same level uh that that it would actually because if he can come home like that that is supposed to bring you up to a level of sensitivity, self-reflection, >> complete opposite. >> So that is is working against you know >> I can't say that about all of essay. I can't say I I could say that I've seen it not just with my situation. I've seen it with a lot of situations. I've also seen a lot of recovery from essay. >> So it's it's a mixed bag and it depends which group. It depends also what you choose the way you look at it because the 12step program has done wonders for people. I mean >> a thousand% >> it saved people's lives. >> It saves people's lives >> for sure. >> Interpretation everyone interprets whatever they want you know especially a person who's manipulating and uh you know the mind will play games with you. So if you want >> to take whatever you want you use it the way you want it. But in your case, you're saying the support and the actual um groups that he was going through did not help you in any way. >> No, he was he was coming back to me with thing after thing that he has to do because I don't want him to. I asked him, "Are you working on this in recovery? I don't think it's I don't think it's it's it's good for us to talk about our recovery. I think that's codependent." He would come very self-righteously >> with these like high terms. It's not healthy. >> I'm like, "Healthy? You're talking to me about healthy? Do we do you want to go down that road? >> There are a lot of addicts who part I guess part of the 12 step is to get up and admit that you're an addict, but they're in such denial that they're like, "I'm not an addict. They make me say it." >> You know, >> interesting. I think I don't know if those ones last in the 12step groups. >> I don't know if those last. I haven't heard of that much. >> But my the person I'm talking about that I went through this with >> Yeah. He will tell you SA is full of sickness. He will tell you today because because today he's in serious recovery. >> He is in he went to he he he went to to deal with this in different ways other than SA and he'll tell you today that SA is full of sickness and you have to be really really careful with which groups you go to. Yeah. Yeah. >> That is something to be aware of. very very >> it is something to be aware of. >> Now as far as uh loneliness, talking about loneliness, how did you deal with that? Did that make you feel the the period of time that you went through this? describe that feeling of of uh you know the opposite of connection, the opposite of uh >> I think in my experience I was I was in so much other pain >> the loneliness wasn't even on my mind. I know for other people I've heard it a big a big piece of it like the isolation. I was very seriously in Essenon and I was in touch with women from Essanon throughout the week. So I wasn't alone. >> So your main pain was uh the betrayal part or the trying to please to a point that uh you can never please. >> So I went through a lot of stages. There was the betrayal part. I there are certain things that are inherent you assume are part of a relationship. One of those things is that you never speak about. You don't go on a date and say hey do you care about me? Right? >> That's not a normal thing to ask, right? just comes in. >> It's obvious. >> I was in a situation with a person who who didn't care about me. It took me a long time to be able to put that into words. So, first of all, I'm just living with someone who really doesn't care about what I'm feeling. And just that feeling of so worthless. >> Yeah, >> I felt so worthless. But again, I didn't have words for it. Why do I feel so worth? I don't know. So I went through I went through just feeling like absolute worthlessness. Um in terms of there's there's I went through a very very serious existential trauma. There's this religious stuff. There's all these things we're taught in in in the from biakos or whatever which is like you know you're going to marry someone if you stay holy. you're going to marry someone holy and you're basher and you're marrying someone on your level and all these different things >> and all these different beautiful things about yeshiva boys and about Torah and about our religion >> and then being faced with such filth and I I specifically don't want to give any examples of acting out over here because I don't want to trigger people >> but the things that I heard of that existed that and I wasn't an innocent kid I wasn't so innocent, >> right? >> But I didn't know a lot of what goes on on the internet, >> right? >> And I didn't know a lot of what goes on on acting out outside of the internet, >> right? But what I did, what I found out was so shockingly disgusting to me. And the fact that I'm with someone who's like that and who sees me like that and meeting all these women who are in these relationships and who are being constantly treated like sex objects, I started seeing the world through a sexual almost predatory lens. Everything was sexual. Everything. >> That's fascinating. Explain what it means. like wherever you went and wherever you started looking. >> I saw what's that from >> like he is looking like wherever wherever you came in you figured where is this going to trigger him is that is that the >> maybe that's where it's from. >> So that's for sure when it comes to girls. >> I would I would go out >> you would start analyzing people left right and center where where is this what is this doing to the attic? >> Yeah. So it it starts from there and then you just start start like their lens is a little bit contagious. >> Unbelievable. It's it's really shock like I I was on a date with my my husband now three years ago. It's on a date >> and like I I still struggle with the traumas of this till this day. >> Unbelievable. >> And a group of girls passed by the car. Now we're on a date and a group of girls passed by the car and I had a panic attack. >> You were looking at your you're looking at your date. If he is looking >> I I'm well that's for sure. >> [ __ ] But even just from them passing a panic attack a full-blown actual panic attack because >> you have this in your unconscious that this is something that either men or all everybody's like that and also you were so traumatized by that fact that this is like a uh this is a war that you have in your head. >> Yeah. Yeah. And and and it goes both directions at once which is this is part of the complicated. It's on the one hand it's like oh I'm not pretty enough. I'm not hot enough. I don't I'm not whatever enough. And on the other hand, >> ew, sexuality is disgusting. Men are disgusting. Sex is disgusting. >> Right? >> But I am a woman, >> right? >> So I I I walked around for a while feeling violated by betim being a woman. I felt violated. I called my rabbi and I said, "Is God playing a joke on us?" >> I said, "I I never asked to have a body, >> right? I feel violated by having a body, by existing. The fact that I walk outside and I could be objectified just because I exist. I felt objectified by God. It was it was crazy. It was I literally thought God was playing a joke on me. >> And all of my connection to religion and I I stayed from hically. I looked the same always. >> But any like spiritual connection I had died. >> You became rebellious. No, it just died. >> I just You felt so distant and not accept not accepted. >> Yeah. >> I felt lied to by by the religion. I felt lied to by Judaism. We we we present as this whole holy thing. And it was like >> all this filth is going on. And you know how many people we met in the different programs we were part of that that we knew? >> You know, this this issue is so prevalent. It's so common. >> But it's but it's secretive that nobody but nobody knows. same time it's very secretive and the shame is tremendous >> and you know we live in a tight-knit community and this is not something that people talk about and the meantime you come you see so many people are suffering from the same thing >> and suffering in silence >> yeah and I I I was I really did I I lost all my all my I lost I I was a very big bakon person before that I I Davening became very hard for me very very very hard >> I actually have a when I was in that relationship hoping to work it out and hoping to become a happy marriage, I was so desperate because this was like a really a person that I wanted to build with and you know they say they say with with Judaism in in somewhere it says that if someone insults you and you don't insult them back >> then your files are get answered which I have an issue with all of these things ever since then I have an issue like we have to be careful with how we promise things in the name of Judaism because >> because you when it when someone does it enough times and it doesn't work, you don't get upset at the rebi, you get upset at Hashem, >> right? >> That's what happened with me. >> Wow. >> And what happened and like I said, he my my my ex was so so hurtful to me. And I never answered back. I never wanted to insult him. Oh, I screamed a lot. Don't worry. I screamed, but I never insulted him personally. Never. and and he very subtly from him I I always felt demeaned and degraded and not love not not cared about not whatever. So and I would never answer back and I always dive in that this should work out and and and it never happened. I didn't I didn't get the marriage with this person that I really wanted and then so that that was like one of the things that made me lose faith. I'm like all these promises all these Jewish things I'm doing it's not happening >> plus all the filth. But then when I met my now husband, >> yeah, >> um >> I'm like my my feelings came true. >> A new life, a new a new world opened up for you and you can use spirituality for healing. >> Yeah. >> It's beautiful because uh obviously you went through what you went through and a lot of times they say that people who are going through a hard time is so you can sit over here and share and discuss this and be a voice. Yeah. for the for for the people who don't have voices and you have the guts and the courage to to to come and and and talk about this and make a difference and leave a mark. >> You're leaving a mark in this world. You're saying something. You're standing up for something. That's that's that's spirituality. That is really that is the real thing. I'm a little more Jewish now. >> It's a mission. It's a it's a tremendous mission. But let's get back to um >> while you were going through this hard time. Um, how did you face him every day as far as I know you were working on yourself, but making dinner and living in the same house while it was going on? How did you get up in the morning and how did you go to sleep and >> Right. Right. Right. Um, it's very complicated. I'm It's very very very complicated. I'm I'm currently in touch with a woman who she is She's separated and she talking to her is just like I I I almost cry every time I talk to her because it's it's just so >> like you're watching a person be on a what's the thingy like on a torch like a >> like a rotisserie basically. >> Um >> she's just she's just basically being burned alive. And she often will talk about that she is so desperate for the closeness to him, >> right? >> Because it's like, "No, show me I'm worth something. Show me you love me. Show me you care about me. Come be with me. Come hug me. Come hold me. Come sleep with me." And then the next day she feels disgusting. She's like, "Ew." Like I slept with him again. He just cheated on me. Like I I slept with him. And that back and forth is so hard. It's between such a terrible loneliness and desperate need for that connection from that person. And because he hurt you, there's also even more of a need like, "No, make it better. Make it better. Please help me feel better." So, there's this desperate need for connection. And then there's the other hand where you feel like you're violating yourself by even making a joke with him. How am I going to make a joke with you when you cheated on me last week? >> So, so like I I talked to her. >> It's very crazy making and there's so much shame that comes with it. Like, how could I have done that? How could I have slept with him again? Like really? Like that's just And this is this is so common and so >> so much a part of it. I I can never ever do justice without having like a 10 series 10 10 episodes at least of a a series on this to ever do justice because I know I'm talking about so many pieces of the pain, but I'm not going to be touching on all of it. >> And I do want to say to any woman out there who's hearing this and is like, "No, this doesn't resonate or It's not touching on the main pieces. I am I am cursed with the curse of knowledge. I have been so deep into this. I I I don't even know what's obvious, what's not obvious. It could be there are things that are much more basic that I'm not saying now >> that I should have been saying. Please reach out. I'm asking these women to please reach out and tell me, hey, you missed this. This is an obvious one. How did you not mention that? Right? >> Because there's no much there's no justice I could do to this. >> Unbelievable stuff. the emotions that that's going through uh your head. But let me ask you something. Um when you finally shared this with your family or with people or with the community, what was the response f first thing out of their mouth? >> So because I had spoken to therapists who were so invalidating, >> we would go to a therapist and I'm I'm basically saying he's watching porn. He's he's doing ABC. Like I I'm losing it. And and the therapist would be like, "Okay, so this is how you feel now. How do you feel?" Like treating it like equal ground, >> right? >> Crazy making. Absolutely crazy making. What do you mean how do you feel? How do you feel since how is this an equal issue? And I had like a a few experiences with people who a bunch of experiences with people who who were very invalidating. I was sure that when I share it with my family, they're also going to invalidate. I was sure. >> Not at all. Not at all. They were I I shared it with my brother first and he was just like silent. He was shocked >> and I was ready to defend. I was ready to fight. I was ready to explain to him how bad it is >> because the like I said like the responses from therapists and also the in theon world that normalized it for me like that I shouldn't be reacting so badly. If I'm in so much pain I should be working the steps harder. So I was sure that people wouldn't that my family wouldn't react well. But no, my my brother was the first and he reacted extremely supportively. And then I told other siblings and I told my I I I didn't know I did not tell other siblings until later. I told one other sibling who was kind of had to be involved. And then I told my my my parents and my brother-in-law. My brother-in-law is like the firmst man you've ever met in in your life. >> Um, I would say his name, but I'm just trying to protect the people around. Not him, but whatever. You you know, like people know the name. He's the son of a very famous Rashiva. >> And like he heard the he heard it and it was just such a breath of fresh air. He's not like emotionally Mr. emotional. He's an old, >> right? >> He's like, >> "Oh, she's thinking of a marriage with this guy. That's not going to be a marriage." >> Mhm. >> Like that was his like the only line he said. I'm like, "Oh, someone like didn't make it like complicated. Why do you feel this way? What did you go through in your childhood to make it hurt?" Nothing. >> I didn't go through anything in my childhood to make me feel this way. I'm going through something right now that's making me feel this way. So, they were my family was very supportive. Um, in terms of ending their relationship, they really they really, really, really left it to me. >> And I'm very grateful that I have an uncle um who's a RV big RV. Again, I don't I should have asked him before, but when I was talking to him about, you know, continuing into marriage with this person, he said, "Don't do it." He said, "Don't do it." I actually sp I actually spoke to another Rauv who about this cuz cuz this person was my best friend, >> right? >> Really my best friend >> until all this came out. And um another I spoke to also the ones who answered simpler were somehow more validating because they didn't make it complicated. Why does this hurt you so much? What he's going through? No, it's simple. You just described a horrible situation. That's awful. I was like, that's what I needed. Like, anyway, this other also like when I talked to him, he's like, "What do you need this for? This is not for you." Like, as if like I'm talking about someone I went on one date with. Like, it's not for you. Drop it. I said he's my best friend. He's like, "You could continue to be his best friend, >> just not in marriage." Yeah. >> So, it was just Yeah. I got I got a lot of support, which I didn't expect, but not everybody does. >> Not everybody has that. No. Now if someone would ask you where should someone stop because your experience with therapist is not the best and with couple counseling is not the best and and and with as a nan it's not the best. So if someone is struggling, someone is going through now who hears this, hears this and says, "You know what? I want help. I want to reach out to someone and they let's even make it worse." They don't have the support of that family because of image and divorces. You know what's going on. They're like trying like you said before the the marriage is more important than the actual what is going on in the marriage. Yeah. >> Right. Where should they turn to? >> First of all, I hope to be opening something soon. >> Excellent. Genuinely, I hope to be able to provide resources soon. >> That is unbelievable. >> Um, >> you want to open up a support group? I want to open a hotline or you want >> I wish I could open a hotline. I see that as further on the list. I think a support group is pretty soon. I could have pretty soon I'm going to have a support groups available. >> Um, I wish a hotline is is is on my list. Um, in terms of who they should turn to, >> this is because this is a subject that is uh very secretive. >> Yeah. >> Very shaming. >> Yeah. And like we said, not a lot of people are here to support. They don't understand. It's not so much uh about they don't want to support. They they they for some reason they don't put themselves in someone else's shoes. >> When I met this woman whose husband is physically, emotionally, and verbally, and sexually assaulting her, >> right? >> And the rv said, but he's going to go get help. Learn to forgive. This was in the past, >> right? I have another woman who said her husband had an affair, an affair with another woman, another from woman, and there was an event that was going to be a small event that that woman was going to be to going to be at. And this was a few months later and she said, "I don't want to go to that event." And they went to the RV and the RV said, "Don't hold grudges. >> Don't hold grudges. Go to the event." The woman this another story a woman went to went to the RV to say her her point in going to him was telling him how much she's suffering. She said she couldn't take one more minute. She was home. The kids were home. She packed her car. She went with her kids. She went to her friend's house because she couldn't take one more minute around him because he was being so horrifically abusive that day. >> Right? >> And so she went to her friend's house. And the RV's only response to this story was sharing with people that are not raundin therapists is a no no. Don't do this. >> Like you can't you can't share it with people. So I'm like there's uh like there's an outage going on inside these people that they just can't hold the complexity of it. They can't hold the pain of it. They can't hold the not knowing how to fix it. It's not just because it's hard to put into words. When it's been put into words very very very well. An example is this story. An example is my friend who was being raped in her home because he said, "Don't move or you'll regret it." Basically, I'll hurt you. I'll hit you. >> Rabund, we're also responding badly to. >> So, it's not just because we can't put it into words. It's it's it's too hard to hold. The tension is too big. It's such a helpless place to be. >> It's such a helpless place to be. So, to go back to your question of where should people turn, >> where should people go? I would say firstly there are online resources there are online groups there's something called btr.org or that's actually very specifically she's very very intense about how any sex addict is abusive. So you have to be wanting that kind of language and that kind of um mindset but they have groups running every single day. Um, go online. There's something called also um, APSATS a APS. Uh, they have resources. They have they're they train their therapists and coaches, I think, specifically in this betrayal trauma. So, go there. Um, find yourself a therapist who is trained in betrayal trauma. Not a sex addiction therapist. >> Great. >> Right. But uh like a a sex addiction the therapist could sometimes be a little bit worse because they understand sex addiction. So they think they understand the stress but they don't. >> You're saying it's a whole different ball game. >> It's a different ballgame. It's like a person and I I I'm so sorry to all sex addicts out there and I don't mean this comparison as actually but someone who understands pedophiles doesn't understand victims of sexual abuse. >> You're understanding a very different thing. One's understanding the perpetrator and one's understanding the victim. Don't confuse them. So, a sex addiction therapist does not mean that they're going to get the the the the spouse. I would say find someone who who specializes in betrayal trauma. Search it and go with your eyes and ears open. If what they're saying doesn't resonate with you, trust yourself. It doesn't work, cancel it. Don't go to them anymore. >> Right? So, you still have to find the right fit. It doesn't mean that just because the therapist, you have to sit there and take it as like a >> Yeah. a word of God. Absolutely not. Absolutely. just go in you. One thing you're going to have to do, and this is so hard to do after you find out that you're married to someone that you know, you're telling yourself, "I was such an idiot for marrying this person. I was such an idiot for not knowing." You you lose your trust in yourself completely. But still, what you have to do is trust the voice in your head, at least on this small level of does this therapy feel good to me? And if it doesn't, you drop it and you go to the next one. And it's such a hard thing to do. All you want is hope and something to make you feel better. to go through a process of finding a good therapist >> that can take a while also. >> It could take a while and it's not fun, but it's very important because really >> because at the end of the game, you want to help yourself and you want to feel that connection. You want to feel that >> Yeah. You you need someone to catch you. You're falling to pieces. You need someone to let you fall to pieces and to catch you. You need someone to be with you on your absolutely volatile journey. your your journey. One week you're going to come in crying and miserable and don't tell me anything that I should do. I just I'm just crying. I just need you to listen. The next week you're going to come in, okay, I decided I want to work on myself. I want to work on my part of this. Tell me exactly what to do. I want to set boundaries. I want to whatever. The next week you're going to come in. What do you mean boundaries bound? Like like like why should I have to work with you're gonna have you need someone who's gonna work with you and you because you as the woman you have to go through these stages. You have to allow yourself all of the pain, shame, rage, calm, denial, all of the stages are yours to go through. The therapist has to be able to go through it with you. Make sure they understand you. Make sure they're with you. >> Important important stuff. >> Can I say something about something about how these women often how what manifests that like is shocking >> how it manifests. So very typical is a women will be especially in the beginning stages suddenly out of nowhere crying. They're on the phone. They're doing customer service at their job. They're suddenly sobbing and they can't stop it. >> Falling on the floor shaking. I don't mean falling cuz they can't >> they don't faint, but I mean like they suddenly just crumble. >> Yeah. >> In the middle of their house. They just fall on the floor shaking. Serious serious panic attacks. Depression and anxiety for sure. Yeah. >> What used to be very common is for women to be uh go to a psychiatrist at this stage and then they would be diagnosed with um borderline personality disorder. >> Yeah. Because they were not believed. >> They weren't believe they were acting crazy. >> Yeah. >> They were acting crazy. At some point you're like, "Oh, it's so coincidental that they started acting crazy when they found out their spouse was this." How many of those do we have to see to stop saying it's a disa it's a disorder and it's actually the result of abuse? But um women who are the nicest women in the world will be davening that their husbands die. >> Yeah. >> Hitting their husbands. Very typical. >> They become physical. They were never physical people, but they brings sound worse than them is what name calling, screaming. Um they become people they never recognize. They themselves didn't recognize. >> Themselves don't recognize. >> They themselves don't recognize. and and all of this. My message to these women, if you're having these symptoms, you are absolutely normal. You are absolutely normal. The symptoms of this very often look very similar to to survival of rape. >> Wow. >> Survivors of rape. Yeah. >> You react and then you come out to to to the public. You come out and people you come outside and they look at you that you're the crazy one. >> You're the crazy one. >> Yeah. >> And and and you are right now. >> Yeah. But because you're like you said, someone's holding a fire, someone's burning you right >> as you speak and they're quiet and they're meek >> and they're crying. >> A message to therapist and our stop confusing crying and self-pity for compassion, empathy, and remorse. >> Correct. >> Self-pity and tears. Tears are not remorse for the pain you caused. There's so a lot of it is self-pity. If the person is crying and they're saying, "I feel so bad for hurting my spouse and this is what I'm gonna do for them." Good. Great. If a person is crying, don't misinterpret that. >> Don't misinterpret it. Don't Don't take it to what it would have mean if it was you crying. You don't relate. When you're a RV or a therapist or whatever, you're kind of seeing in the person, you see them as another human, right? They're another person. You be aware of how much you're projecting onto them of if this were me. No, if this were you crying, yeah, you might be feeling the remorse. This person is an addict. They're a different story. >> Yeah. Don't confuse their tears for empathy or remorse. >> And ultimately, it's the action. I'm sorry and crying and talking is all nonsense. >> Yes, >> we want to see action. >> You need to see serious commitment to sobriety. >> Very serious. And and not just in talking. >> So, so some people addicts and it's very sad for them because we all know how hard it is to change. >> Yeah. So for an addict who's generally a helpless, a more helpless type, a more powerless type, a little bit not so good at getting things done, to be told, "No, you have to make recovery your number one priority." It is hard. It is daunting. And I'm not saying it's not. >> Sure. >> But for the wife, >> what she needs to see is active pursuit of recovery. So many wives take it on. I'm going to find him a therapist. I'm going to find him the groups and I'm going to find him this. >> They become the fixer. >> They become the fixer. And then in Essanon, and this is a good thing about Esanon, inon they say you can't control it. you can't cure it. You didn't control it. You can't control it. But and in a way, that's a really good message because it's like, okay, it takes away the responsibility. >> You stop working on yourself. >> But the other on the other hand, it's like, yeah, but right now I can't live in my reality. So, I am going to try and find him a therapist. I can't live with this. Again, that's why we need there's so much sensitivity and nuance needed. Um, so what you want to see is a real real real actionoriented, you know, dedication and commitment to recovery. >> And then one thing that's very important for for women and the addicts to know is that sobriety doesn't equal relational repair. Sobriety will not repair your relationship. >> That is like step two is what you're saying. First, you have to become sober. Yeah, so >> yeah, >> soiety is the step one. >> Then we need to work on the relationship now. What about to gain back trust? >> To gain back trust to to to Yeah. As much as you can. >> As much as you can, which is very hard. >> It's very hard. And any amount of invalidation will set you back to day one when she found out you cheated. >> Correct. >> Back to day one. You could have been sober for a year. >> Yeah. >> And you tell her she's overreacting to something, she's back to day one. >> Back to back steps. Let me ask you a question. And in your opinion, do you think that um it is a possibility to recover from sex addiction >> for the men to rec? Absolutely. >> They can >> I absolutely believe in it. >> And what I find what I another message that I wish I would give and in in the longer term I really want to start a group. I don't know if I would run it. I don't know how appropriate that would be. But a group for men who are trying to repair their relationship also because I think that it needs its own guidance. >> You're talking about step two. >> I'm talking about step two. When it comes to recovery, one of the things that I find frustrating is that right now what we do when a when a person says he's a sex addict and he's looking for help, we send him to SA or SAA and to a SEAT, a certified sex addiction therapist. >> Okay. Um, I I struggle with general basic functioning things. I find life hard. I find I find it hard to do laundry and hard to do dishes and annoying to clean my house. Right. >> Yeah. >> I've been working on that in therapy. >> That itself such a small problem. Hard enough to change, right? >> From going once a week to therapy. >> An addict has to change so much deeper than that. Like they have to change their core, the core of who they are. It is such hard work. And what's so sad is that sometimes you have an addict who really wants to change and he's going to his meetings and he's going to his therapy and he keeps acting out. And what the message to an addict at that point is you're broken. You're doing all the things that people who get better do and you're broken. And it's just not true. For so many people that's not enough. And I wish we would normalize rehab. Go to rehab. >> Wow. >> Go to rehab. Don't treat this as if you have something a little bit inconvenient and you're trying to work around it. Treat it treat it like you have cancer cuz you do. >> Wow. >> If someone had cancer, they would go to the hospital for 2 months if they knew it could make them if it knew it had a 80% chance of making them better. They would go to the hospital for two months. This cancer will affect you and the people around you for the rest of your life if you don't deal with it. And if you do, if you do go to rehab, it's not just going to help you be sober. You're going to feel like a new person. You're going to feel strong. You're going to feel okay again. You're going to feel like you're going to feel hope. You're going to feel like you can do things you never thought you can do before. You're going to create connections that you never thought you could have. And I know I'm speaking Chinese to anyone who's in this situation and they just found out and their life is falling apart. Rehab does magic. >> Magic. Magic. Magic. I really wish we would stop treating this as something that needs a once a week therapy and just um SA meetings. And for people who that does work, great. >> Right. Awesome. But for people who it doesn't work, it is not because you're broken. It's because you're dealing with most addicts are dealing with severe trauma. A lot a lot a lot of trauma and it needs help from >> the inside out. And we need to go deep and you need to dig deep. And rehab really, really, really, really helps. >> Wow. >> And you'll come out of there feeling so much better. >> Yeah. You will find yourself again. >> Yeah. >> And you can start fresh. >> Yeah. >> And then you can start building step two, which is uh building trust back. The repair of the relationship. >> The repair of the relationship. ask you something as far as u what is the red flags or the symptoms if let's say a person is doubting >> uh doubting uh if if there if he's a sex addict or not >> for a person himself. >> Yeah. No spouse. >> Yeah. >> So before I go to that I want to just go say about the rehab thing because I want to say one more piece. >> People rehab is very expensive. First of all sometimes you could get insurance coverage for it. So get in get in touch with advocacy companies um for for insurance and see if you can get insurance coverage. But it might be a project where you have to go and collect money and you have to go speak to the rub of your shoo and you have to go get a GoFundMe. You have to put up a whole Saab story. You're going to have to go to your rich relative and tell him what you've been up to and it's mortifying but it's so worth it. I have not met anyone and I know a lot of people who went to rehab and who embarrassed themselves by begging people for money and I haven't met one person who went to rehab and regretted it. >> Wow. >> They come out feeling like they never experienced life like they are now for the first time. >> Right. >> So it might be a project of you can't say, "Oh, I'm going to try rehab. I'm going to call. Oh, it's expensive. Never mind." No, no. This is Yeah, this is a project. But you have cancer. >> So you're saying this there is light by the end of the tunnel. Give them a lot of hope. a thousand%. >> The relationship is its own question, >> right? But a person needs to help themsel. >> A person needs to help themsel. >> Yeah. >> Um now back to what you just asked, red flags >> as far as uh if a spouse what should a spouse look for? What is red flags that uh that that you know if she has um doubts, >> she was if she's wondering? >> Yes. I would first say that unless there's any previous real trauma that's connected to this, like let's say right now I was doubting if my husband was a sex addict, I would say that's coming from my trauma. Correct? >> Right. >> But a person who doesn't have trauma in this area, >> right? >> If you're wondering about this, if this is something that's on your mind, then something's going on. >> You can't say your husband's an addict. Maybe maybe maybe nothing's going on. Chances are some you're feeling something, so some something is going on. I would highly recommend getting a therapist. Actually, yes, going to a sex addiction therapist in this situation. Not betrayal trauma yet. You want someone who specializes in sex addiction. And talk to them about your concerns. Talk to them about what you're feeling. Talk to them about the little symptoms, the little signs, the unsurities, and they'll help you. They'll help you a figure out what you're feeling and why and b if there's confrontation that you're going to have to do to your husband that you're not currently strong enough, they'll help you with that as well. >> Yeah. So that Yeah. So that you're saying trust your gut is what you're saying. >> 100%. Trust your gut. Don't come to conclusions based on your gut. But if your gut is saying something's off, I have to check this direction. Check that direction. When I went and I found out that what I was dealing with was addiction, >> that was my gut. Right. >> I saw a Rabbi Torski book and I said >> click something clicked. >> Yeah, something clicked. So if something feels off, trust your gut enough to go and seek help in that direction. And if you seeking help and the person tells you you're imagining things, seek help from someone else. >> Correct. >> Let's stop looking at therapists as God. >> Yeah. >> And I'm a big therapy advocate. I go to therapy 15,000 times a week. >> But it has to have a balance. >> Exactly. I don't go to therapy that much. But um yeah, don't don't look towards authorities to be the >> last word. Trust yourself. That's something that I learned over time. >> Let me ask you an interesting question. I heard you on one of your talks or interviews that you gave that you were saying and and that's I want to get into the sex addict's mind. Uh you were saying I was everything to him that he didn't want. Yeah. >> So, as far as a sex addict, and I want to understand how they think. Um, do they have certain particular desires and certain particular needs that they're running after, >> right? >> And you become the one that is um >> disappointed them. >> You disappoint them or you were saying they will do they want for the wife too and they don't have they're hungry. They don't have enough. This is something in the head that that an average person doesn't understand. So, so where's the difference between why are you becoming the monster all of a sudden in the house, >> right? So, what an addict is looking for is escape. These addicts, >> correct? >> Let's let's talk about an 11-year-old boy who is miserable at home. His mother is horrible to him. She screams at him all the time. She's never happy with him. >> Right? >> All he does is try to please her. He is a good boy. He's nice to his siblings. He's nice to his friends. And he's neglected. And for the first time in his life, he experiences a physical sexual sensation that feels good to him. And it's something that he realizes he can turn to when he's stressed, when he's when he's hurting. He he can turn to that and he that can that can give him that those few minutes of feeling okay, of escape, >> right? And this boy grows up and it becomes more and more of an attraction and you know once he's 12 13 14 he starts feeling that around girls and around women. So this one thing that gives him a sense of okayess is sex is sex is sexual pleasure and then it starts being from women. Right? So now it's like oh wow women are the key to my okayess to my feeling okay. >> All right. So then either they're acting out with women or they're just watching things or they're just even just imagining. Let's say they're not even watching anything. They're at this point what women are to them because they're in such in so much pain and they're so desperate for feeling okay. Women are the answer. >> Okay. So that's at this point. I'm going to get married >> and I'm going to be okay cuz I'm going to have sex. I'm going to have I'm going to have a girl. >> Yeah. and they get married and they have a wife now and they have sex and it didn't do it. Why am I not feeling better? >> They still didn't fill the void. >> It doesn't fill the void. Um what they don't realize is that that void that they keep filling with sexual pleasure, that sexual pleasure is an escape from their reality. It's a fantasy. It's going into fantasy world, >> right? Your wife is the opposite of escape from reality. >> Your wife is in your face. Correct. >> She is your mirror. She's a a wall. She's an entire room of mirrors. >> It is reality. >> It's the most reality >> you can get. >> Yeah. So that's not an escape. Any addict, an alcoholic, a drug addict, a sex addict, what they're looking for is escape from their reality. Right. So if their wife, that same wife of theirs was some affair partner, that would be an escape. >> That would be fine. >> Yeah, that would be different. It's an escape from your life. Your wife is not an escape from your life. >> Um that's first of all. Second of all, at the point where your wife has a problem with this where either even before she knows, >> even before she knows, she doesn't even know you you doing this, you're feeling guilty >> and then you have to start justifying it in your head. >> And then you're telling yourself all the things that are wrong with her. And so it's what's wrong with her as a wife. It's what's wrong with her physically and sexually and how she looks. >> And you're building a story. You have to justify it in your head. So there's a story being built. And I'm not saying this is for everyone, but there's a story being built around who the wife is and what she is and what she isn't. >> And so so for the first reason, she's she's just the biggest disappointment because you are going to be the sexual outlet that did it. So obviously something's wrong with you. >> Yeah. >> I married you. You were going to be the answer. You're not the answer. Something's wrong with you. Dress better. look better, get skinnier, do more exercise, look like this person, get a different kind of makeup, right? Yeah. >> We have to fix you. And on the other on the other side of it is, like I said, there's the block. And then, especially, let's say, when she does find out >> and she's angry at him, >> how is he supposed to hold that? He has to turn it back to her. He hates her. >> So many of these men hate their wives. >> She becomes the enemy. >> She be she becomes the enemy. Literally that's that's what it felt like in my relationship. I was the enemy, >> right? >> Yeah. >> That's the reason. It makes a lot of sense now. I understand it. >> Um, how do you see yourself as a victim or a survivor? >> I find I I don't love either of those words. To me, survivor sounds like victim also. I'm sorry. And I know people like it. >> No, I hear it. >> Um, >> I I appreciate it. >> Yeah. I I I feel that I am someone who went through something. I was harmed. I was damaged and I hope to turning turn it into helping people and I'm grateful for the opportunity to help people. >> Wow. It's beautiful. >> That's all that's all I see. >> Beautiful stuff. But let me ask you, where does forgiveness come into this? >> I again I can do a whole podcast on forgiveness. Yeah. Um >> define your question. Sharpen your question. because of healing. Um, you're forgiving yourself, you're forgiving the person in order for you to move on. How does forgiveness sit with you? >> I don't I don't I know everyone's very big on forgiveness. I'm not. >> I got you. >> I just don't see I don't I don't >> I love the honesty. >> I don't I don't prioritize forgiveness. I don't know what forgiveness is or what it isn't. Does forgiveness mean it's okay what you did? People say no, you don't you don't forgive. It doesn't mean it's okay, but you still forgive. I don't know what forgiveness means. I'm not going to lie to you. I don't know. >> It's confusing. >> It's confusing. I've never heard it defined well enough. I I I don't know what forgiveness means. When I was dealing with this back then and I called my brother on a desperate error of Russashana when I was in this relationship and I was like, I don't know what means and I can't say I'm this person. My brother said ma means my brother's very he's a so he he he said what means at least based on this one person is that you don't want any harm to come to them because of what they did to you and I said that level I could say right now and that's that's all I need to know and that's all I care about. So forgiveness when it comes to forgiving yourself. Um there were red flags in the beginning when I met this person. There were there were things that were red flags that I ignored and I I was young. I don't know. I didn't struggle so much in the at the time. Of course I was in when you're still in it. >> You can't it's really hard to forgive yourself when you're still in it. There's self-lame. There's him blame. It's you. It's them. It's it's everything's a mess. >> But it's when when I when I came out of it, I was very easy to forgive myself. Um, when it comes to forgiving him, I I mean, I don't, again, first of all, he never asked for my forgiveness, which is just a testament to sobriety doesn't equal relational, >> right, >> repair. I'm I'm I'm quite shocked. I was never asked for forgiveness. Um, maybe back then, like right before we were separating or or whatever, like he was, "Oh, I'm sorry." I don't remember. But there was never a legitimate apology. Like there was never anything close to what I would have done. So I don't I don't prioritize forgiveness. I prioritize healing. Try to heal as much as you can. >> What was the turning point that you decided that that's it? Enough is enough leaving. >> So I actually I I it's a wild story. It I mean thing after it was it was a progression that's for sure. The last straw. My story of the last straw was very much a story of the last straw. It wasn't a big thing. It was a very small thing. >> Um, but things were happening where >> I wasn't I wasn't okay. I was self harming >> in that relationship. Wow. >> I I never I've never selfharmed before that. I I I was cutting myself. I'd never cut before and I never cut after. um didn't give me the satisfaction that they talk about. So that's probably a good thing. Although then it was annoying. >> I deduced you to death that I mean if you heard of it >> and you just decided that you're just gonna >> I was not okay. >> Wow. >> When I tell you I wasn't okay this I wasn't a normal person. I could have been sitting in front of you. I was in a different realm. >> It's unbelievable. >> I was in a different realm. >> Unbelievable. What a what a journey you came from. >> Yeah. I was I was I was selfharming. I was I was I was laying on the porch tanning for hours a day thinking maybe this will do it. Maybe if I'm tanner it will be better. I would I changed my entire wardrobe. Like I said, full face makeup. I was trying to change everything about myself. I was I was being told subtly. I had subtle comments made on on on how I was eating. Mind you, back then I was about 30 lbs less than I am now. and I was being commented on my food. These things were happening and honestly at some point I said to my sister um who has really she's the one who helped me out of it. I said to my sister I gave her an example of something that was commented to me about about what I what I was eating and I said like what do you think of cuz she's a therapist. I said, "What do you think of, you know, a friend of mine?" I said, "And she's like, "What? That's crazy." And I don't know if she said, "Is that you or is or not?" >> But her reaction made me realize like, "Oh, wow. It really is bad." >> Um, >> and I actually brought my sister with me to the Essinon meetings. At at this point, I told my sister, this is towards the end, and I told my sister, "Come with me to the Essinon meetings. It's such an amazing place." and she's the one who who walked out of there and she's like, "What in the world is going on in these meetings?" >> Wow. >> And I was like boom. Like she just needed to say one sentence for it all to like click for me. Like I was in I'm living in a world of craziness, denial, and normalizing horrible horrible things. >> So that was the beginning of me like, "Okay, I I I probably got to leave." And then there was like slowly slowly things happened. And then there was like a one story which was like the last straw which I I could say it it's very insignificant to me. It's significant. >> Yeah. >> Um I was I I I like I said I didn't I felt subhuman. [Music] Um, I don't know if you heard this in the in the video I sent you, but that basically I was walking down the street one day and these girls, seminary girls who were very close to me in age, um, m like they mistook me for someone else. So like they they called down the street like Shira and and I looked and they realized it wasn't me and they like giggled and ran away like oh that's awkward. We called someone who it wasn't them. And in that moment, I was I was shocked that they could confuse me with a seminary girl because I thought I'm like this subhuman ugly horrible thing. And >> so that when I I I the next time I saw him, I told him that this happened and he he didn't react. And I was like >> like this was one of my moments where I was like this is one of my moments where I realized he doesn't really care about me. If someone told me that that's what I had caused them, that that they couldn't comprehend being confused for another man because I made them feel subhuman and like they can't possibly be mistook for someone else cuz they're for sure hotter and he's ugly. I would spend my life fixing it. I would feel terrible. >> Yeah. >> I got no reaction from it. That was that was like a big moment for me. Um, so and there was a constant me trying to to please and look better and be better and all that stuff. And I lost my ability to buy clothes. >> I would go into a store and I would freeze in panic cuz maybe maybe I'm going to buy something and he's not going to like it again. And again, I'm going to feel like kind of laughed at and stupid and like, "Oh, you're you're so cute for trying to be a pretty girl." >> Oh my god. >> So, I would walk into stores and I would really freeze up and I lost my taste completely. I only got it back a few like like a little bit ago after I got married this time. I got it back. Um I still have my my people cuz I'm not Mrs. Style, but I don't freeze when I go into a store anymore. But back then I I would. And I it was it was there was some sale going on in our neighborhood of like, you know, a good brand or whatever. And I told him I said, "I want to go, but I'm I'm so scared." Like this is the confusion in our relationship. I was having these conversations with him. I said, "I'm so I I said, "I'm scared of the reaction I'm going to get from you. No, go, go, go, go." Whatever. Okay. I went and then when I got back, I said, "I'm scared to show you. I'm scared of the reaction." And he's like, "No, show me. I'm telling you your clothing doesn't matter to me." Like, it's fine. Just show me. So, it was in the same sentence. Your clothing doesn't matter to me. Whatever. As long as you're happy with it, but also show me. >> Yeah. >> First of all, >> um it wasn't a loving show me. It was let me see what you bought >> in the guise of loving. >> Um, so I did and I tried it on and he knew that I was I was very mocked on my knees being covered. >> Mhm. >> So whenever I had like a a dress if it was a drop short and I would always have to pull it down, it wouldn't be comfortable for me. Um, that was always annoying to me. So, I tried it on and I try and I I sat down on the couch and I I pulled it down like a drop over my knee and he said he's like, "Oh, is it too short? Is it like too short? You're not going to be comfortable. It's going to be annoying for you." I looked at him and I said, "I need you to be 1 million% honest with me right now." I said, "Are you saying that for my comfort or do you not like this dress and you really want me to return it because it doesn't look good enough for you? So, you found an excuse and what to put it on, right? >> And he admitted to it and that was it. And I said, "I'm out." >> Basically, what I'm hearing from you is that for your mental health, for your self-preservation, you decided that this is toxic for you and you made the decision to walk away. >> I was dying. I was dying that entire relationship dying inside. >> It's not about the dress. >> It's about your mental health. >> It was just It was this last symptom. It was like I literally today we had two conversations today alone about how I'm anxious to go shopping because I'm scared of how you're going to respond, how hurt I am. I'm I got back from the shopping. I told you I don't want to show you cuz I'm scared of your reaction. And it's not that you told me that. It's that everything I feel is pales for you in when it's relative to what you want me to look like. all I am to you. What's so much more important to you than any insecurities I'm having, fears I'm having, traumas I'm having from what you've done. I I don't want to live with someone. >> Who makes you feel less than? >> Who makes me feel Who makes me who makes me feel like all I am worth is how I look. >> You're an object. >> An object. >> Unbelievable. I have one final question for you. >> Yeah. >> Who's your role model? >> Who's my role model? Wow. I don't know if I have a role model. Should I get one? >> It's fine. A lot of Not everyone has a role model. >> Um, I don't know that I have a role model. I would say that the person who I look up to and gain the most from in my life is my husband. >> Wow. >> For sure. He has he has been there for me and he has he's shown me what it's like to be a real human and take real accountability and be a good person and get your hands dirty when it's really dirty and be a person with real integrity, real honesty. Face real questions with honesty. Don't take garbage answers. He's just he's taught me how to He's helped me step into myself. >> Wow. So >> this is this is you know you Hashem gave you a gift. >> I can't even des it's a literal miracle. And people who meet him, anyone who meets him like and gets to know him a little, they're like >> I've never met anyone like him. >> Wow. >> My mother's obsessed with my father's obsessed with him. My father doesn't like anyone. My father loves him. Loves him. He's he's really a gem. >> Where you came from. >> Yeah. >> What you went through, >> you are a an example of there is light by the end of the tunnel. >> Absolutely. Because what what you just described here and you you came to a place where you can stand up and talk about it, become an advocate for this >> and to say that you found your bash >> and you can the relationship works with Hashem >> and it's it's it's it's a tremendous it's a tremendous to >> a million% a million%. >> So I want to I I I I want to tell you what we heard today >> is a story of emotional agony. you stared right into it um into lies into isolation and still still found the courage to rise and that is beautiful and that is a tremendous and um all I can say is thank you for standing up. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for coming out. Thank you for talking about it openly and thank you for being a voice for the people who are struggling. >> Thank you for having me and being open to such a controversial topic. >> Absolutely. And again to any any women out there who are dealing with this, just know that I have been there. I get it. And you're not alone. And nothing you feel is crazy. >> Please, please, please reach out. You can just email me at [email protected]. It's very simple. It's help the number4 [email protected]. And uh I really really look forward to hearing any questions or comments. >> Excellent. >> On anything I said. >> Excellent. Thanks. Thank you so much for coming in. >> Thank you.