The Unsung Hero of the Formation of the Talmud

But just to end with one raid bite. This is a part two to raid that we spoke about earlier in the week. So, in the beginning of the week on we had discussed to talk a little bit about Isaac the author of the shining and his legendary of wider which in many ways was a mysterious net fish to counter a lot of the scholar and a lot of what the year were dealing with in the late 19th century early 20th century. And essentially what he did was is he went and he wrote a history of the Jews focusing on points that the were chopping with most notably the formation of the town. Unbeknownst at the time today is Isaac yard side and I think it's therefore to go now and do a a part two successive device become one of the that we mentioned that Isaac makes a very big deal about is that we're accustomed to thinking that who is the author of the town of Bobby it was it's based on a lot of but said Isaac that if you go through the process of the formation of the town of from the town itself and you know which are dealing with see the what you're going to realize is that there's another hero in the story that's going to emerge and that is rather have already just to quote again from the this is page 80 because we are going to kill us because of the way >> Incredible language from the authority on this Sugya. The world leading expert. And that is that you'll see from the Sugyas that deal with the Rosh Hashanah Rav Aha b. Rava is like this or like this. He's only on the right side. Not on the left side. On the right side together with Ravina. Right? You could say Ravina is on the right side of Rav Ashi. And Rav Aha b. Rava is on the left side. why we have to be meticulous He's together with Ravina on the right. Two right hands. One is Ravina and the other one is Rav Aha b. Rava. And we said that obviously this sheds an enormous amount of insight. Just in terms of First of all, who was Rav Aha b. Rava? >> [snorts] >> Additionally, all the different times in Shas we're but specifically Rav Aha b. Rava and Rav Ashi. This is not just another conversation between two Amora'im. But these are two mesadrei haShas and in real time we're being given access to a process that happened more than 1,500 years ago of how exactly the Amora'im created this incredibly epic work that we know as the Talmud Bavli. So again, I don't think an Arka Bura will ever look at Rav Aha b. Rava the same as well. And we'll see Rav Aha b. Rava comes up so many times. Befrat, we said close to 100 times. Amalei Rav Aha b. Rava to Rav Ashi. But the truth is Rav Aha b. Rava comes up even more times than that. You know why? If you look in the Sefer HaYuchsin saw this in the Toldos HaNa'am HaAmora'im as well from R' Baruch HaLevi They both say that every single time you have a stam Aha in shas, stam in shas is Who was the last time we had stam in shas? The last that we just learned. The said This is not rehearsed. Please give So we had a We just learned He was mentioned as but it's We have a between and Now I'm going to tell you something interesting. You have a between It's a You don't know who said what. See, what do you usually do when you have a where there's a you don't know [snorts] who said what? It's You go pull out that very thin safer which is the It's called and you figure out who said what. But for this that's really not what you're supposed to do. Probably he has a lot of But over here it's a It's a It's a that's in the find out on the base. Incredible. The says like this, three that are related but not for now. Please give And then the says as an aside, parenthetically, throughout the entire means throughout shas, says any single time you find in shas and you don't know who said what, the Look in the I'll tell you who said what. is always the one that's the is the So figure out who's the who's the You know who's going to said what. And I'll even tell you what the is. We always pass like the which again, if you assume is the So we always pass like with the exception of the aforementioned three Over here there's a little So we always pass like the maple, right? That's the bottom line. In every single case with the exception of three, the maple is Ravina. We're passing like Ravina. And those three cases Ravacha is the maple. We'll pass like Ravacha. But this was an Indian that happened so often where there was a masora. I know Ravacha said one thing. I know Ravina said another thing. I don't know who said what. And as a result we had to come on to a club. By the way, our sugia conformed with that, right? Ravacha and Ravina. Ravacha and Ravina. And by the way, who's the one now that said Ravacha? We know it's Ravacha. Who's the one that said Ravina? It's Ravina. Always the machmir. Ravina is the maple with the exception of those three. And the Ravacha pass like Ravina. >> [laughter] >> Pass like the maple which stems with Ravina. But here's the bottom line. You learn this. Okay, so there must have been confusion Ravacha and Ravina. Why would people have confused Ravacha and Ravina? I've no idea. I don't know. This is not my Indian. Let me look up the Rishonim. That would have been a good move. Cuz if [laughter] you look up the Rishonim, he doesn't say this. But it's possible this is what's going on over here. Because Ravacha and Ravina they're both standing on the right side of Ravashi. So is it this right hand man of Ravashi? Was it that right hand man of Ravashi? Again, Ravacha is Ravacha and Ravina. And he is literally embedded together with Ravina and together with Ravashi. Their roles are one and the same. Hence you had this confusion of Ravacha and Ravina. Ravacha and Ravina. Again, it just adds so much color and so much light to this Ravina and Ravacha. I think it's mamish pure a play. But there's an obvious question then that needs to be asked. And that is that if Ravacha and Ravina is literally together with Ravashi, literally together with Ravina, so why is it Ravina and Ravashi? Why is Ravacha and Ravina forgotten? Why is the legacy of Ravina as being the shuta of Ravashi? And somehow somehow Ravacha bar Abba bar Rav Ammi, till this week, at least amongst our friends, was completely forgotten. It feels like Ravina must have contributed something that Rav Aha bar Abba bar Rav Ammi didn't, cuz if they're literally shavah b'shavah, then it's just not fair. Why is it Ravina bar Rav Ashi, and why is it not Why is it not Ravina bar Rav Ashi and Rav Aha bar Abba bar Rav Ammi? So, the truth is, I'll tell you something very interesting. When we say that Ravina and Rav Ashi were the ones that wrote the Talmud, so we're accustomed to thinking there's Rav Ashi. Rav Ashi had Ravina. Ravina and Rav Ashi talked throughout Shas. By the way, just if you know the background, Rav Ashi was older than Ravina, but Ravina was a talmid of Rav Ashi, and the Gemara says in Eruvin 73a that Ravina was a talmid chaver of Rav Ashi in the sugya mayim alachnei aviv, but the bottom line is that it's Ravina and Rav Ashi who lived together, they're contemporaries, and they worked on the Talmud Bavli, and this is Ravina and Rav Ashi. So, it's fair, right? Pasht, right? Of course, that's the way it is. It's It's actually not so pasht. Rav Sherira Gaon, in his famous Iggeres, he talks about the sdar haTalmud and how it went about. And Rav Sherira Gaon says something that at face value is mavdil. Rav Sherira Gaon says Rav Ashi is the one that wrote the Talmud. However, even after Rav Ashi passed away, the Gemara was still being written. K'yadoa, and it didn't complete 100% in the times of Rav Ashi. It went weiter. And he goes and he he traces what went afterwards. I'll just read a few excerpts. Acharei Rav Ashi, after Rav Ashi, Malch bar Masya bar Rav Yemar. Rav Yemar took over for Rav Ashi in Masya bar Rav Yemar. That was acharei d'mar of Rav Ashi. Acharei Rav, Malch Rav Idi bar Abba. Acharei Rav, Malch Rav Nachman bar Rav Huna. After him came Mar bar Rav Ashi. After him came Rabba bar Rav Huna. And then after that beyond review you'd give me kiss life schnoz download a lot of Shabbos nifter Rabbeinu Avinu but no it's all Rabbeinu who Rabbeinu for who so far says Rab Shira going to get it you want to know who the Rabbeinu that so far is I am above material people it's a whole different of it's not the Rabbeinu that's talking to Rabbeinu this Rabbeinu is older than Rabbeinu and if you do the math he passes away almost a hundred years after Rabbeinu so obviously he's a completely different person of his act of Shira going that when we say Rabbeinu Rabbeinu was so far we're not even discussing two contemporaries it's fascinating that Rabbeinu who's together with Rabbeinu is not Rabbeinu that's so far it's a different Rabbeinu and he was also in the Talmud because there was a whole new addition right the second edition Maduro whatever and he was the one that put out the new one with the fancy glossy everything and he gets credit goes down in history as being together with Rabbeinu to appreciate this a little bit better we have to know not all Rabbeinu in Chasa the same person places says there were two Rabbeinu and if you go through these Sugis of say that there is and told us my mom what emerges is they were either three or four Rabbeinu there were many Rabbeinu not all the Rabbeinu are the same person you have Rabbeinu being one of the early Amiram then you have the Rabbeinu with Rabbeinu here's the Rabbeinu that lived years after Rabbeinu but the bottom line is this Rabbeinu of the that pay up this is niche the Rabbeinu that only had to mean Rabbeinu that Rabbeinu is part of Rabbeinu when we say Rabbeinu was the one that was close to the Talmud we don't just mean Rabbeinu Rabbeinu is the chief editor but it's Rabbeinu and his team it's Rabbeinu and his staff it's Rabbeinu and his condition is Rabbeinu oh by the way now we know is also why did Rabbeinu not get the shout out that Rabbeinu that got so Rabbeinu so shy is a different Rabbeinu if that Rabbeinu was the Rabbeinu was getting the shout out wouldn't he maybe said Rabbeinu I can't see that question make all the lesson. If you know this Negarison of Shura going, see you know the Kasha hypno stone. It doesn't even start. Now, the reason this is not such a satisfactory answer is because this Mahaloch of Rav Shura going in who Ravina was is very very much and if you look at the Rambam in his Rambam says clearly that the Ravina Ravashi that was is the Ravina who was together with Ravashi. In fact, the Rambam says that after Ravashi was buried, the Ravashi took over and he was in the Talmud. So again, it happened in steps for sure, but it's not some later Ravina. It's this Ravina. And if that's the case, how do Kushim look there? If it's Ravina as in Ravashi's Ravina, why Ravina? Why not Ravacha Ravina Ravacha? So maybe we could just say one we're going to end with this. And that is we once talked about the unsung hero of the Mishna. And that was Rav Nosson That same about the Mitzvah of the that says Ravashi and Ravina it says the line right before that Rabbi Nosson Mishna. Rashi says that Rabbi and Rabbi Nosson together they wrote the Mishna. Everybody knows who wrote the Mishna, Rabbi Yehuda Nasi. So how in the world was Rabbi Nosson so forgotten? It's unbelievable. I mean, what did he do? I mean, we know what Rabbi did. He's in his to the Everyone knows this. So what exactly was Rabbi Nosson's role that he somehow becomes >> [snorts] >> the the the silent partner literally of Rabbi Yehuda Nasi. So we mentioned from in his say I am and that's what I have. He says something brilliant. He says that he believes Rabbi Yehuda Nasi lived in Israel. But the Rambam is very and he says that Rabbi Yehuda Nasi wrote the Mishna. He was mekabetz all the and he was mekabetz all the different mishnayos and the braysos cuz he wanted to have the entirety of Torah Shebaal Peh in front of him. And then, once he had that, he went and he did his job libun after libun, pun intended, and then he went and he came out with the finished product that we know today as the Mishnah. Now, Rebbe Yehudah Hanasi living in Eretz Yisrael really only had access to half of the mesorah because we know that Klal Yisrael was really divided into two groups. There were the Yidden that were living in Eretz Yisrael and there were the Yidden that were living above all. How did he get access to the Yidden that were living in Bavel? Says Rav Reuven Margolios, "Lulei demistafina, it could be he got that through Rav Nosson HaBavli." And by the way, that's why it's Rav Nosson from all the tanoim he picked it's cuz he was the Bavli. He was a Babylonian and he needed a point person in Bavel to be able to assist him with this avodah cuz remember, half the Yidden are here and half the Yidden are there, so to speak. And as a result, he needed somebody in Bavel to be able to assist him. And that's the legacy of Rav Nosson HaBavli. Avodah this Rebbe Yehudah Hanasi's project, al lemaseh, he's the CEO of the Babylonian chapter of this avodah and as a result, he goes down in history as Rebbe Rav Nosson Sofer Mishnah. In that same piece of Rav Reuven Margolios, it's in Eruvin 12a that the reason Rav Ashi had Ravina working together with him on the Talmud Bavli is because everybody knows that Rav Ashi lived in Mata Mechasya in Bavel. You know where Ravina was? Ravina was in Eretz Yisrael dig Yid. He was a Yerushalmi Yid. That's where he came from, from the Galil. But he was in Eretz Yisrael dig Yid. Not going there [snorts] now. But he was in Eretz Yisrael dig Yid and he too assisted Rav Ashi in the same way Rav Nosson HaBavli assisted Rebbe. And ultimately, he was the one that was mekabetz, he was the one that brought all the different halachos from Eretz Yisrael to Rav Ashi. So like this, Rav Ashi had access to everything that he had. Now, to explain this piece, R' Mordechai Gollis says something brilliant. He says that we know whenever there's a machlokes between the Talmud Bavli and the Talmud Yerushalmi, we pasken like the Talmud Bavli. So, why do we paskin like the Talmud Bavli? I mean, the Talmud Bavli is from Ravina and Rav Ashi. You know what the Talmud Yerushalmi is? R' Yochanan. So, how is it possible? Halacha is always like R' Yochanan. So, how could it be that we paskin like the Talmud Bavli over the Talmud Yerushalmi? Lechora, we're supposed to paskin like the Talmud Yerushalmi. Or meichateisi, why should it be the Bavli over the Yerushalmi? So, like R' Mordechai Gollis, I think it's because when the Talmud Bavli was composed, they had the Torah from Eretz Yisrael and they had the Torah from Bavel. It was R' Ashi's chiddush that he went ahead and he had a side person. He had Ravina working for him who brought all the shmuos from Eretz Yisrael. And being that you had the Torah from Eretz Yisrael and Bavel, all the Torah was included and therefore, it was much that the Talmud Yerushalmi would be much kinui l'rei'enu that all the Torah came from Bavel, Eretz Yisrael. And that's the ma'ala that the Talmud Bavli had over the Talmud Yerushalmi. The truth is, R' Mordechai Gollis doesn't say this. There's a Rif. The Rif happens to be in Maseches Eruvin. It's tucked away from all places. The Rif addresses this shaila. Why do we always paskin like Talmud Bavli over Talmud Yerushalmi? And the Rif says because the Talmud Bavli was written after the Talmud Yerushalmi. It was over 100 years later. And because it was later, we know when it comes to halacha, you always go basar d'basar. What's the aim of Why do you always go basar d'basar? You go basar d'basar because you assume whatever was later already took everything prior into account. That's what's going on here. The Talmud Bavli had access to the Talmud Yerushalmi. The Talmud Yerushalmi never had a Talmud Bavli. And where did the Talmud Bavli get access to the Talmud Yerushalmi? Zocher R' Mordechai Gollis, this is his chiddush. It came from Ravina. Ravina was from Eretz Yisrael. By the way, just to bring out the point a little bit better, there's a a teshuvah from the Chasam Sofer that we've mentioned many times over the years. It's in Siman Tzadik Daled where he goes to his klalei psak. So, it's not a sefer, it's only a teshuvah, but it's mamesh a safer in the world of Clavius Slimon Sadiq Dovid and Chavis your. And the Chavis your one of the great post came said that whenever there's a machlokes between Rav Ashi and Rav Papa like Ravina. Ravina over Rav Ashi, yes. He says why? Because Ravina came from Eretz Yisrael, Rav Ashi came from Bavel, and Avira d'Eretz Yisrael machkim. And it's for that reason we pass like Ravina. Ravina is in Eretz Yisrael the guy yet. Rav Ashi was a Babylonian yet. Rav Ashi needed someone from Eretz Yisrael just like Rav Yehuda bar Nachmani needed somebody from Bavel. Rav Yehuda bar Nachmani had Rav Nachman bar Abba and Rav Ashi had Ravina d'Eretz Yisraeli. That's the flip side. But if that's the case, maybe that's the oimek, maybe that's the pshat. Why Ravina gets the disproportionate shout out? Why is he the one that's on the pedestal? At the end of the day, it's Ravina and it's Rav Achai bar Rav Abba. So how is it that it should be Ravina more than Rav Achai bar Rav Abba? The teretz is in terms of Seder Rav Ashi, in the omlai Ravina d'Rav Ashi versus the omlai Rav Achai bar Rav Ashi. I guess we could do a statistical analysis, but at the end of the day zogt the Devarim Rabbah zogt the Rav Yitzchak Isaac Halevi, I did the analysis for you. I'm telling you it's mamesh the same. There is no chelek whatsoever. But there was one element that Ravina brought to the table that Rav Achai bar Rav Abba didn't. That element was he was the one that was mekabetz the Torah from the land of Eretz Yisrael which was not a davar katan because that's the reason we pass like Talmud Bavli over Talmud Yerushalmi. And just like you see, that's what gave Rav Nachman bar Abba the zchus to go down as Rebbi and Rav Nachman, well that would have given Ravina the zchus to go down, that would have given Ravina the zchus to go down as Rav Ashi and Ravina being soif Rav. But just to end end, and that is the Gemara says in Sanhedrin 71 amud aleph. It's also Gemara in Gittin 60 amud aleph. The Gemara discusses over there all the people that were Torah bigdolah umacha macha. And the Gemara says me Moishe Moishe v'ad Rebbi lo kamaihu. Torah v'gedulah b'makom echad. U'me moish Rebbe v'ad Rav Ashi lo matzinu Torah v'gedulah b'makom echad." So, who are the three tzaddikim that were Torah v'gedulah b'makom echad? It's Moisha Rabbeinu, Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi, and Rav Ashi. The Tiferes Chaim in Sanhedrin says, "Why wasn't Moisha, Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi, and Rav Ashi?" He said because Moisha Rabbeinu gave us the Torah Shebiksav. Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi gave us the Mishna. And Rav Ashi gave us the Talmud. He gave us the Gemorah. And in order for someone to be able to embark on such a project, it obviously he needed Torah, but he also needed gedulah cuz he had to be m'kabbetz, he had to be m'lakket, he had to bring things from all over the world. The avodah of writing the Mishna required Torah v'gedulah b'makom echad. That's why me moish Moisha v'ad Rebbe lo matzinu. Rebbe was someone that needed it. And then again, it wasn't something that had to happen until the Talmud was going to be written. And who wrote the Talmud? Rav Ashi. And that's why me moish Rebbe v'ad Rav Ashi again lo matzinu Torah v'gedulah b'makom echad. You know who said this memra? Me moish Rebbe v'ad Rav Ashi, the second half of this memra, lo matzinu Torah v'gedulah b'makom echad. If you open the Gemorah Gittin daf nun tes amud aleph, it's Omar Rav Achai b'rei d'Rav. Af ani omer, ich zog, me moish Rebbe v'ad Rav Ashi lo matzinu Torah b'makom echad. The Gemorah had previously said me moish Moisha v'ad Rebbe. Rav Achai b'rei d'Rav was a contemporary of Rav Ashi. Rav Achai b'rei d'Rav, who was part and parcel of this avodah, of the Seder HaShas, Rav Achai b'rei d'Rav says, "I had a seat at the table. I had a view of Rav Ashi from his left side. I was l'yad y'minai, I was looking at him from that angle. And I saw that what Rebbe had, Rav Ashi also had. I saw the Torah v'gedulah b'makom echad and I saw play itself out like the Tiferes Chaim said in Seder HaShas. This is another example of where you can't look at Rav Achai b'rei d'Rav the same way again and after giving us this insight, he is the matter of the schneider of me moist ready that I drove a like Machino tired of the good doula the market mouth.