Tit-For-Tat Is A Losing Strategy. So Why Is Trump Playing That Card?

Well, I got a message for President Trump, and that is tit for tat is no way to conduct a war, let alone win one. Um, Mark, uh, what do you think about what happened last night with uh the first of all, Iran downed an Apache helicopter over the straight of Hormuz. And then later, President Trump said, "Okay, we have to retaliate." And he did. And it was like, "Okay, thank God." and then okay that was an fsensecom announced that's enough we gave a proportionate response that's enough >> so there are two things I'd like to say first of all as we discussed before the program before our uh episode today Trump's big thing was always you kill Americans and we won't stand for that and in this particular case the two uh uh people in the aircraft were both alive they were you saved. So there wasn't a loss of American life and maybe that also affected the way the president saw the incident. But secondly, when you say don't want to be offensive, but simplistically that you can't win a war for tit for tat, I would say that's only partially true. Why? If you've got all this pressure on Iran and you're blockading their cities, right, and you're blockading their ports and their economy is losing, according to what the president said, a couple of hundred million dollars a day, right? And their economy is in freef fall and there's all this pressure on the regime, right? And that you're doing a war of attrition the whole time, tit for tat, and you're hitting them here and you're hitting them there, right? you are actually, you know, choking them. And maybe this is a strategy that actually can bring about what you've been talking about so long, which is regime change. Because the people in Iran will say, "We're not getting, you know, water. We're not getting power. We're not getting anything. There's no longer bombing of Tehran, so we can come out of our house homes. Maybe this is the best way. It'll take longer, but maybe this is the best way to go to regime change." >> Really? No. The people of Iran, this is what they're seeing. They said, "Yay, finally a president in Washington who is going to do something about this evil regime." And he said, "Help is on the way." And of course, it took him weeks after that then to launch Epic Fury now. And now what they're seeing is he's backtracking. And how is he backtracking? He says, "We want a deal. We want a deal." If he he's backtracking on himself. And by the way, anybody who says, oh, you know, he's angry at Prime Minister Netanyahu, um, and he tells him, don't attack Beirut and don't do this and don't do that, or yes, you can retaliate, but only a little bit. Um, he's saying that to himself as well because he has become obsessed with forging a deal with the Islamic Republic that is impossible. And he is, if anybody is going to compromise, it's America. And the Iranian people see that and they are very disappointed. and so are the Gulf States. It's very worrisome and unless this is a whole tactic to fake out the regime and that in fact uh he and Israel, you know, the United States and Israel are planning a huge last harrah to topple not just the regime but to topple all their uh abilities and to take the enriched uranium out of there. uh rather than sign a stupid paper that has no value then that's one thing and if that happens I'll eat my hat. Okay. >> So I will say in defense of President Trump the following. You don't allow the enemies to dictate your policy. you have your policy and there's the famous story and I know that you know Castro is not the Iranian leadership and I know there's Islamic extremism is not the same as communism but there's the famous story in the middle of the Cuban missile crisis where an American pilot is shot down by a Cuban anti-aircraft missile and Kennedy says all right we're basically going to look the other way because we've got bigger fish to fry and that's the sad truth and had Kennedy reacted did maybe there would have been would led to escalation and nuclear war between the superpowers. Who knows? All I'm saying is I think Trump is right to say Trump's policy at the moment is keep the pressure on attrition. Hit them every now and then, especially when they do bad things. Yes, but keep the pressure on the economic pressure and the isolation of their country, of their ports, and so forth. Should he really allow the Iranians to dictate when we're escalating and when we're not escalating? >> Of course not. That's my point. We say war of attrition, you know, that's that I don't like that. War of attrition is usually what your enemy does to you. He keeps testing you, keeps hitting you and saying, "Now, let's see what you do." No, this shouldn't be a war of attrition. And it wasn't didn't start out as one. And yes, it's fantastic. The embargo on Iran, that's a brilliant move. And I don't care whether you do this with um US missiles, B2 bombers, or you only strangle them economically. It's not that I particularly need the war itself. But what we're seeing is that the economic pressure is not sufficient. And why isn't it sufficient? And that does go back to the Islamist mind frame. We we're going to we'll we'll kill all our people. They can all starve as far as we're concerned. we need to, you know, the the 12th imam and we are are, you know, Allah will provide or whatever and we're going to take over the Middle East and the world. It it's it's a mind frame that Americans can't grasp. Okay. But what I'm saying is any pressure on the Islamic Republic is good. My point is letting them get away with and wait, you have to have an American die. If an American is killed, that'll be excuse me. um in any even legal systems if I shoot you in the head and you survive you go into a coal mine you survive that was that that's not uh the punishment should be just as though I murdered you and that is the case in war as well and let me tell you something when when um and Israel is doing the same thing by the way about Lebanon we said no more nice guy okay from now on any missile projectile you know could be a drone, a missile, whatever comes from to Israeli territory. We are going to hit Beirut hard. Okay. Well, there have been a few missile launches and drone launches, but guess what? We intercepted them before they landed in Israeli territory. Oh, so that doesn't count. That is appalling. I'm sorry. That is not the way to con to because your enemy sees that. The enemy sees it and he knows it. And though they're all weakened, we you know, it's terrible. the US and Israel accomplish so much so much on all fronts and then to just say okay let's stop now we understand that Netanyahu has to has to accommodate uh Washington uh to as much as possible but here my thing is not that Trump is going against Netanyahu it's that he's going against his own ideas about the about nuclear uh power and him having no nuclear weapons And now because of this, let's just take a look what at a worrisome. >> Can I just say before you do that, I want to respond because you said and we'll go to what you want to discuss immediately. I just wanted to respond directly to what you said and I think you made a factual mistake because I think I I didn't study law. I don't think you did either, though both of us have lawyers in our families. Yes. But I would say the following. attempted murder you don't it doesn't receive the same sentence as murder itself there is no >> there is a difference in law between attempted murder and murder and I would argue I remember uh when Iron Dome people said it doesn't solve all of Israel problems it only saves a few Israeli lives and I remember the you know the Iron Dome system which shoots down the rockets for the when when terrorists kamas rockets at us right >> for those of I know you knew, but the viewers and the listeners who might not be able, but Israel's ability to shoot down incoming rockets, right? You can't win wars, but you protect your people. But it also does something else. It gives the government the ability to have uh more arrows in its quive. What do you call it? A quiver. >> Quiver. >> Quiver. Thank you very much. In other words, if they're shooting rockets at you and you don't have missile defense, then you're forced to send your ground forces in. The minute I have Iron Dome, I can think how best I want to deal with the threat. On what terms, when is the best time for me to strike, it gives me more flexibility in my response. And I think it's the same here, right? You're saying, well, if they fire a rocket and they haven't killed anyone, well, first of all, it's attempted murder and not murder. So, there is a difference. There is a difference. And if they're firing a missile and they're trying to kill you and you shoot down the missile, once again, it doesn't mean they're nice people, but it means you have the ability to decide on a response that's good for you at a time that is good for you. And let's remember when this operation started, what was it on the 58th of February? It took >> 28th of February, sorry. They took everyone by surprise, including the Iranians, though you will recall for weeks before the 28th of February, we were discussing over and again, is he going to do it? Is he not going to do it? When he did it, it was a huge surprise. And so, the idea that you have the ability to act when it's good for you, when it's convenient for you, for the worst time for your enemy, that's something that's worth thinking about, >> of course. And if that is what is happening right now, Yeah. >> as I said, >> I'll eat my hat. I'll bite my tongue. I'll apologize. Okay. I fear that's not what's happening because of this damn obsession over a deal. Now, let's listen for a minute to JD Vance talking to Jesse Waters on Fox News. >> The Israelis in the United States, we have a lot of shared interests, but we also have some situations where our interests diverge. And I think where the president has been very clear here is that while Israel obviously has some objectives that it has, the United States's main objective in Iran is to ensure that Iran does not have a nuclear weapon. And we've actually, thanks to what's happened over the last few months, but really over the last year and a half, we've created the space necessary where the president believes, and I think that he's right, that we can get the long-term settlement to Iran's nuclear deal. Now, Israel may like that. They may not like that. But fundamentally, we think this is in the best interest of the United States of America. >> Okay. So, let me just say before I hand it over to you, how dare he say that? Of course, we don't have identical interests, but it is in Israel's highest interest that Iran have no nuclear weapons, cuz guess which country would be demolished by Iran's nuclear weapons first. Um, the death to Israel and death to America. we're uh we'd be the first target of their nuclear weapons. Okay. So, how dare he say, well, Israel may not like it and may like it, but this is our interest is to prevent them from having nuclear weapons. So, first of all, yeah. Okay. Second, we believe we can get a good long-term deal. Baloney. And let me tell you something. JD Vance is on this is is a member of the wing of the administration that is not on Israel's side. They're the isolationist wing and um you know I have to say even his tone his tone toward Israel is very unacceptable and what do you mean Israel like it and might not like it? We won't like uh them to have a nuclear weapon and we believe that any deal that is signed with those disgusting um evil mullas and revolutionary guards cannot be good. So I will respond and first of all I'm aware that if you talk about divisions within the administration and so there's the more internationalists and the people who who want to be involved and those people who are more in the isolationist tradition and they want to keep America out of foreign wars and that's an important priority and so forth and you know Rubio maybe represents one side and Vance the other side and the president you know has shown so far he's more on the Rubio side but I think a lot of his rallies maybe Ruthie Bloom whom included believe that he has a potential to go in the other direction as well. And so that's why I think many Israelis were you know when Vance spoke they said oh this is that voice coming out but I want to look at the substance of what he said and I think Israeli leaders have actually used similar language when you say right that we're great friends and we're allies and we're fighting together but we don't have exactly the same interests. where different countries and it's President Trump's job to look after America's interest and prime minister and now his job to look after Israeli interest. That's a truth. Now maybe he could have said it nicer but it's still a truth that we have to accept. Secondly, he said that the most important thing is the nuclear issue. Okay? And the truth is and he said Israelis can like it or not but that's the most important thing. But the truth is Israel does like that. Israel does believe that we've got to prioritize the nuclear issue. It's true. We'd like to solve the issue of Iran's ballistic missiles. It's true. We'd like to solve the problem of of of the proxies of of Hamas and Kisbah are armed and and funded and and and supported by Iran. Yes, we'd like all that done. Hamas, get them all out of the place. Right. We've got, you know, we'd like to see regime change as well. We'd like all this, but I think Israel fundamentally agrees with the position that was expressed by Vance that we should prioritize the nuclear issue. And the most important thing is to get a good outcome. Not Obama 2, but a real deal that actually takes the nuclear weapons out of this regime. Now, I know you're smiling because you don't believe it's possible, but I would argue just one thing. I think you can never be sure of anything 100%. But I think there's a very good chance that Trump will hold out and will only make a deal if it's on his terms. And why do I say that? Three reasons. Trump doesn't want to be seen as being a wimp, right? Trump doesn't want to be seen as being a softy and maybe most important, Trump doesn't want to be seen as an Obama if there are his three considerations, right? How can he agree to a bad deal on the nuclear issue? >> Okay, so first of all, I did say that. I said, of course, Israel's first priority is the nukes. That's why I said that he's got a lot of nerves saying it that way. That is our priority. Second of all, yes, we have our own interests, but again, we're um second fiddle here because America is the greatest superpower and we acknowledge that and that's true. Um third, let me say something. There is no such thing as a good deal. None. No, there is no good deal. What there is is victory. If we want to get those nukes as listen, first of all, Trump himself said originally his goals were he never said regime change. That was up to the Iranian people. But what but when he said help was on the way, what he meant was he was going to facilitate it. How? By defeating the regime, not by changing the regime. They would have to do it. But how do you defeat the regime? You take away its nukes. You take away its missiles. You take away its proxies. You take away everything about you. And then you don't let it hold the Straight of Hormuz hostage, by the way. Okay. Now, when you're on the way to victory and Trump has said again and again, in two two weeks, we could finish them off. So do it. Don't tell us about the you. It's true. Your B2 bombers are fantastic. So now why do you stop and say, "Oh, no. Sorry. We are now going to talk to those people. We're going to negotiate with them. We're going to send he's going to send his two sons-in-law, whatever." I mean Jared Kushner, I'm talking about Tom Barack also about uh having to do with Syria, etc. And Turkey. Okay. But you send and Whit and JD Vance, they um let's talk. Oh, any minute now. We're signing a deal any minute now. So, first of all, that is bologoney. Second of all, when you say that, all you're telling the the Iranian regime is, "Okay, keep up your entrance. They're not going to do anything. And keep um keep firing missiles at the Gulf because they're not going to do anything." Um, and let me tell you something. Stop saying if he won't sign a bad deal. There is no deal you can sign with them. They have to surrender. And it was Trump himself who said total surrender. He said it all along and then now and I know gas prices went up etc. We we understand all of that and yes the Fourth of July celebrations we understand all of that but he has uh he has gone back on his own his own goals for the war and it's not a question of whether Israel likes it or not. And let me just say one more thing to the people who um also on social media attack me. I'm talking about the you know Tucker Carlson wing of the Republican party since I'm a Republican. I mean I'm an both an American and an Israeli and they say to me, "Oh, we're America first. We don't want our troops to die for you people." No, we don't. Well, first of all, nobody is asking American troops to die for Israel. America first means you have to be the greatest superpower in the world and make sure your enemies know it. And for Israel, it it's Israelis are willing to die in these battles. Nobody's sending. And by the way, I just want to say one last thing. We have this phrase we use. Um a lot of people use it and I think they don't hear what they're saying. We don't want to send our um troops to die for something. No, we send troops to kill, not to die. That's what troops are for, to kill, not to die. And Israelis, and again, as even as a mother of soldiers and everything, I have the perfect right to say it. It's not a question of my sending my son in to die. No, the idea is you defeat evil enemies. And that is in America's interest. And America first means doing that. And if you let those little mullers step all over you, then how are you America first? I want to respond now to the tone of JD Vance which is as you said and uh I said correctly I think before that it's it's a bit offensive right when he says we put prioritize the nuclear issue and the Israelis can you know leave it or lump it or jump in the lake right and the truth is Trump himself has used a tone like that with Netanyahu on the occasions saying you know well BB will have to do what he says or I'll tell him what to do and he'll have to agree right and it's it's for an issue Americans talk down to you, right, like that. And I trying to think, why do they do it, right? Do they do it? Does Trump do it because it's his personality? Maybe he talks maybe that way to everyone and so us as well. I shouldn't take it personally. Does Vance do it because he's not in favor of the Israeli US alliance? Okay, conceivably yes. I don't know if it's true or not, but maybe. But I think it's something you said before. I think they take this tough language. We're calling the shots. We're making the decisions precisely because of that small vocal group in the MAGA base which is saying the things, you know, Netanyahu dragged America into this war and they're fighting for Israel and it's not really America's interest, right? And so I think by them saying we're in charge, we're the boss. Israel can lump it or like it. It's sort of a defensive way for them to say Israel's not calling the shots. We are. And let's speak flavor. Israel and United States are partners, right? We're allies. But as you said in using different words, but they're the senior partner, right? We're the regional power. We are the preeminent regional power, but they're the superpower. And that gives them a special status. And of course, Israel will do its best always to take into account America's interests. But those interests, as we said before, don't always don't always collide. Now, on the issue of the deal, right, and here you've been very consistent and I, in disagreeing with you, have been very consistent >> because because I think I know exactly who we're dealing with. I have no illusions about the Islamic Republic of Iran. I've got no illusions about the revolutionary guards. I've got no re uh illusions about the Ayatollas. I know that they want Israel to be destroyed. Right? If they could press a magic button and Israel would go up in a huge big mushroom cloud, they would be the happiest people on the planet. I have no illusions about what we're dealing with. But in the framework of real politic, right? If you can get through your economic power, through this, you know, the blockade, through military power, the strikes we're doing, through the weaknesses of the regime, if you can get a deal that does what Netanyahu said it needs to do, which means all the highlyenriched uranium is removed, physically removed from Iran. and the ability to enrich further uranium, that capability is actually dismantled physically. I think if you can get those two elements in a nuclear deal with Iran, those both things were totally absent from the uh um from the Obama deal. Yes, if you can get that, that in my opinion is a good deal. Now, of course, I want regime change. Of course, I want other things. But never let the perfect stand in the way of good. And and one last point here right on the issue of a nuclear deal with Iran, Ruthie, you can have your opinion, but it's clear nutan. I think when Trump says over and over again he wants that deal on his terms, you use the word surrender before, but they have to agree to positions that they never agreed to before. If Trump goes down that that that that that road and he doesn't compromise on what is crucially important and they're the two things I talked about before that is something that I Mark Regv will support except for one thing you keep saying deal instead of surrender if they surren this is what I'm saying we have to get we okay let's say President Trump and he and he means it to get all the nuclear material and prevent Iran including the uh enriched uranium that's only enriched 20%. That's easily upped uh to the bomb level. >> Yeah. >> Go in and take it. What do you mean a deal? They have to agree. No, you have to defeat them. You have to dictate to them. You have to go in. Now, Americans who don't want to send troops in there to go in and endanger themselves. can tell you right now, Israel would be willing to send troops and to do that on behalf of America, on behalf of both countries, on behalf of the Western world and the region, not just on behalf of Israel. And this is why it really annoys me anytime these gropers start accusing me of wanting to kill American soldiers. All right. No. And um I'm saying when you say, "But it would be a good deal." Why do you make a deal with people you are defeating? they should surrender, raise a white flag, and if they don't, you say, first of all, as Trump said, we're stronger. Of course, he's much stronger. We could wipe out Iran in two weeks of the same thing Israel used to say about Gaza. Okay, we can. So, do it. I don't mean wipe out all of Iran. I meant you go in and you dictate. And one of the ways to dictate is you look, we bombed those sites, right? He said, "Look, big, beautiful, those B2 bombers." And we did. We turned it all into rubble. Okay. Now you go and dig it out. If the Iranians aren't doing it with you, if if the I hate calling them Iranians. The Iranian people are different from their regime. Okay. If the the Islamists over there are not helping you do it, then you go in and you force them. And you do it yourself or you force them to do it with you or you keep them away while you're doing it. And if it's too dangerous, if if there material is too dangerous, um I don't know. Um, President Trump said, "No, it's safe over there in those sites." Who knows? All right. Point is, uh, the point is go take it. Don't expect, oh, no, in 10 years and now all of a sudden they're talking again in time frames like Obama. You're right. He doesn't want to be Obama. But let's face it, President Trump has the ability, as we've seen, to say something and also persuade himself of something else. We've seen it many times with him. And I say this as a supporter, not as a detractor of his. All right? And because I'm a supporter and because of that, I feel that this it's urgent to send him a message from his supporters. His detractors are never never like him no matter what he does. All right? And this is very disturbing. And I think that you are too much of a diplomat when you say you need to make a deal with people like that. No, you don't make a deal with Hitler. You don't make a deal. You don't make a deal with the Boston Strangler and Jack the Ripper. You don't make deals with them. You you you conquer them. You and those are criminals. Okay? You jail you in you send them to jail. Here you what I'm saying is you've got to do you've got to assert your power. And asserting JD Vance, you know, America asserting its power over Israel, that's that's a no-brainer. That's not a problem. assert your power over the Islamic Republic and its proxies. >> So, I'm all in favor of asserting power. I'm all in favor of military pressure and economic pressure. And that's called leverage. But the goal of the leverage is to solve the nuclear issue and to have a situation where Iran can never ever develop a nuclear weapon and to get a deal that makes that possible. That's what I think. But I I would just uh before we leave Iran and move on to something else, I listened very carefully to President Trump's interview on NBC's Meet the Press on Sunday and everyone talked about that, you know, he walked out of the interview and that was the news. the actual the news. There was some news in the interview because he dealt more than I've heard him talk about publicly in the past about what he calls the nuclear dust with the highly enriched uranium that is under the ground since you know the B2 bombers destroyed uh uh the facility. And I he said right he said he'd like to have a deal where we come in and we take out all that stuff. And then they said, "Well, could the military do it? Could if there's no deal, can the military go in there and take it out?" and he didn't rule out the possibility, but he said to the interviewer, he said to her, "But you know, we have so many cameras there. We have many satellites looking at that place. If you were there and you had a name tag here saying your name, we can see that, right?" And so the current situation, right, where it's destroyed and under the ground, so to speak, right, they can't get to it. If they try to get to it, we will see in advance. If America can see it, my assumption is Israel can see it too, right? And so once again, keeping the pressure on on Iran, economic pressure, military pressure, they can't touch their enriched uranium today because we've got our eye on the ball. It's I would argue, yeah, that Iran's got a problem and their problem's only going to get bigger and there's no reason for us to do things to feel we have to force it. I think the trajectory is on Israel and America's side here. I think the way things are looking, we just need to be patient and we're going to win this. And I think Trump understands that because Trump, unless you know, all your nightmares come true and and Trump does an Obama two side deal, I just I I don't say it's impossible. I think very low probability. I think for the reasons I said before, he will stick this out. He'll wait. Maybe he'll wait till after November. It's a long time, but it's only a few months. What's that in the, you know, to solve this problem? whatever he does, if he holds out, keeps the pressure on, doesn't And he said something that I liked, right? The Iranians wanted some sort of financial release. You know, they got all these assets being held in in countries around the world, including the Gulf, and they want they said as part of this deal now, which is, you know, just the >> the memorandum of >> the memorandum which is even before a deal. And he said, "No, no, you don't get anything. Only when you deliver. You want sanctions relief, only when you deliver. take the uranium out of Iran and then you'll get something. You get nothing up front. That's the art of the deal. You don't give them anything up the front because the minute you give them something up front, you won't get anything more. You've got to keep the pressure on. As I said, economic pressure, military pressure until you get what you need. >> Well, I agree with that. And let's just hope in the end uh a combination of Israel and America goes and takes that nuclear dust, takes it out. We've got cameras there. We know where it is. we know what's going on. Let's just do it. Okay. And uh well, actually, President Trump said only America and maybe China have the uh technical ability to dig under under that rubble. You know, what do I know about that? But I'm saying just do it already. I mean, you're saying we have time to wait. I'm not so sure. But that, you know, we'll see by next week. And now just to end end on a on on a on a political note in Israel internal uh Israeli policies we're watching also America go through all these um um primaries uh primary elections. Uh well in Israel also we haven't hit that stage yet of primaries but we are we we're just now figuring out what date our actual election is going to be and >> and there's no date yet but as we keep waiting because of the constitutional and legal process in Israel already the beginning of September is out and if we don't have a decision very soon midepptember will be out late September is very difficult for the Jewish holidays So my prediction is it looks more and more and next week we'll see if I'm right or not. >> We're looking for an election in October. >> Okay. So Mark, listen, it's been um nice arguing with you and uh always and next week um I'm hoping that more progress will be made and we'll see because I'm very pessimistic at the moment and you're optimistic. So we'll see. >> Maybe that's about our personalities. I will see you next week, Ruthie.